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where is my oil going?
#557948
12/19/09 03:52 PM
12/19/09 03:52 PM
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mickm
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my engine still uses a lot of oil, quart or so every 100+ miles. haven't checked it exactly, but it's a lot.
brief history. after i got it took the heads off, and found that the intake was very loose and sucking oil. it was bad, the gaskets were wet along the bottom for all the ports. thought i found the problem, all else looked in good shape, so just did a re-gasket, (and cam, new intake), and put it back together. better, but still sucked oil.
leak down showed 8-10% for all cylinders, compression test good, (forget the numbers, but all very close). was sure it was the guides/seals. took the heads off again for this reason, (but also to have them ported), and found it was again leaking through the intake, (i didn't know these had to be sealed with gunk).
so here i am now.
- guides were fine, new seals.
- sealed intake.
- cylinder walls looked good, nice crosshatch still visible.
- plugs do not show signs of oil consumption, (maybe very minor, but i have nice tan insulators, with the slightest bit of soot around the rim, don't know if it's oil or slightly rich mixture).
- leak down and compression tests were a few thousand miles ago, so things could have changed.
- q-tip in pcv port at carb came out grayish, but certainly not what i would expect if it was sucking that much oil through there.
does blow a little blue smoke when starting it up after cold and sitting for a while, but not bad.
if i have been driving normal for a bit, and then nail it, it does blow a big one time puff of smoke out the back, but it's hard to tell the color from looking back. seems that clearing that once or twice is fine, then no more smoke on nailing it.
does not seem to smoke any other times but those two.
so where do i go from here? is it possible that my oil rings are in that bad a shape? engine probably has 6-7k miles on it.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#557950
12/19/09 04:03 PM
12/19/09 04:03 PM
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mickm
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Quote:
Is there a baffle under the pcv valve in the valve cover? They'll suck a lot of oil if there isn't one there.
I'd personally toss the pcv valve and run another breather.
there is a baffle. there seemed to be a lot of oil on the outside of the neck that the pcv pushes down onto. was suspicious of that, which led me to check the inside of the hose and connection at the carb.
what other type of breather setup would you use?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#557953
12/19/09 04:13 PM
12/19/09 04:13 PM
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mickm
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I'd just run another breather like you have on the other valve cover. That it has that much oil around the grommet makes me wonder if the one breather is enough. Does it seem to have a lot of oil residue around the breather and other areas? Reason I'm asking is I've seen some motors glaze the cylinders from improper break-in, but the leak down test kinda rules that out. Where was the piston when you did the leak down? TDC or BDC? Not that it matters, just thinking maybe the rings are sealing where it was tested and not elsewhere. Does it seem to have excessive blowby?
pistons were at TDC. haven't really looked for excessive blowby, although you would think that would have occurred to me me by now 
i'll check that out next time i fire it up.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557955
12/19/09 04:17 PM
12/19/09 04:17 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
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Quote:
pistons were at TDC. haven't really looked for excessive blowby, although you would think that would have occurred to me me by now
i'll check that out next time i fire it up.
I can't tell you how many times I've had something stare me in the face and it's taken someone else to bring it to my attention. Part of the fun right? 
Hopefully the problem is simple, like breathers or something along those lines. I highly doubt it's rings. It'd be burning oil on acceleration and the way you're describing it is sounds like it's drawing oil in under vacuum conditions only and once it's cleared out it's fine. Good luck with it.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#557956
12/19/09 04:22 PM
12/19/09 04:22 PM
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mickm
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Quote:
I can't tell you how many times I've had something stare me in the face and it's taken someone else to bring it to my attention. Part of the fun right?
yup, know exactly what you mean
Quote:
Hopefully the problem is simple, like breathers or something along those lines. I highly doubt it's rings. It'd be burning oil on acceleration and the way you're describing it is sounds like it's drawing oil in under vacuum conditions only and once it's cleared out it's fine. Good luck with it.
that's what i've thought, too much checks out ok for it to be something major, but who knows.
i'll give this a shot and see where it goes from there.
thanks 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#557957
12/19/09 06:34 PM
12/19/09 06:34 PM
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64Post
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Quote:
Yes that is correct. PCV is simply a smog deal. But on bigger engines you need enough breather to allow the crankcase to breath and sometimes one breather with a PCV isn't enough.
Point taken, but adding another breather if ring seal is going away doesn't fix the problem, it only hides it.
Mick, next time you have the intake off look at the ports and valves for excess oil build up.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: 64Post]
#557958
12/19/09 06:45 PM
12/19/09 06:45 PM
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mickm
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Mick, next time you have the intake off look at the ports and valves for excess oil build up.
i can do that by taking one of the carbs off. clean shot down into the port, and valve as well. i can get a long swab down in there and see what's there, so i'll do that.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557959
12/19/09 06:58 PM
12/19/09 06:58 PM
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Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Put a pressure gauge on the valve cover(inches of water or a 5 psi) and measure the crank case pressure.... should be near 0, you would love to see it negative but if it shows near 0 check the intake again(use clay to check the gap) 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557960
12/19/09 07:36 PM
12/19/09 07:36 PM
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Indiana
W5Duster436
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I had the same problem with my Cuda when I first got it fired up. No smoke whatsoever but ate 6 quarts of oil after about 500 miles.
It was sucking the oil into the intake ports from under the intake due to poor alignment and not enough sealant. I think it only had the valley pan initially and I ended up having to add the thin gaskets as well with that special gasket sealant.
'70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone)
'71 Dodge D100
'70 Dodge W100
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#557962
12/19/09 08:55 PM
12/19/09 08:55 PM
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mickm
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Quote:
Put a pressure gauge on the valve cover(inches of water
or a 5 psi) and measure the crank case pressure....
should be near 0, you would love to see it negative
but if it shows near 0 check the intake again(use
clay to check the gap)
is that with one side blocked off? or does the pressure gauge go on the breather side with the pcv still attached?
so there is some blowby in any engine, if not the rings would be 100% sealed. that blowby creates pressure that must escape somehow, in this case through the pcv and breather. so for there to be negative pressure that would mean that the vacuum from the engine, via the pcv, is creating something of a vacuum in the crankcase, correct?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: Big B]
#557963
12/19/09 09:09 PM
12/19/09 09:09 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post
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Quote:
My guess would be at full throttle the pcv valve is closing
And the crankcase is pressurizing. The other breather can't keep up.
When the crankcase pressurizes it pushes oil up into the cylinders.
I agree. How much blow by is considered normal? And how much can one breather handle?
I found I have the same blow by problem:
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: 64Post]
#557964
12/19/09 09:42 PM
12/19/09 09:42 PM
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ok, i'm finding i need more and more clarification as this post goes on.
here is what i understand to be going on here:
combustion gasses slip by the rings, and so fill the crankcase. those gasses obviously have to be evacuated from the crankcase, or they would build up pressure that would force the gasses, (and oil as someone posted earlier), back into the cylinders.
in my case, the vacuum from the engine opens the check valve in the pcv, which then draws these crankcase gasses into the engine to be burned again.
the air flow goes from the breather on the opposite valve cover, through the crankcase, through the pcv valve and into the carburetor.
if there was no pcv valve, there would be one breather on each valve cover, and the gasses would just escape by being pressurized out of the breathers, (more like exhalers at this point).
so if my issue is there, then the pcv valve is closed when it shouldn't be, which gives the engine only one breather to evacuate the crankcase from. if this isn't enough, the pressure is forcing gases and oil back into the cylinders, hence the burning oil.
so right now i can do 2 things:
1) check the pressure in the crankcase, (do i do that just at idle, all the way through the rpm range???), and
2) just get rid of the pcv, plug the port on the carburetor, and put another breather in the valve cover where the pcv was.
am i on track with this???
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: Big B]
#557965
12/19/09 10:26 PM
12/19/09 10:26 PM
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Dcuda69
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Quote:
My guess would be at full throttle the pcv valve is closing
And the crankcase is pressurizing. The other breather can't keep up.
When the crankcase pressurizes it pushes oil up into the cylinders.
Your best bet would be to install a vacuum pump.
Gzmotorsports, Jonesracing, and Product Engineering all have
Street vacuum pumps for continuous duty.
A good PCV valve should not close under WOT/heavy load.
When man vac. is high(idle,cruise,light load) the PCV valve restricts flow to maintain a balanced air-fuel mix.It also prevents drawing oil out of the crankcase because of high manifold vac. At WOT,low vac,heavy load the valve OPENS to allow airflow through the crankcase.
This is right out of a textbook. A PCV valve is more than just a check valve. 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: NITROUSN]
#557969
12/19/09 11:07 PM
12/19/09 11:07 PM
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mickm
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Spark plug tubes can cause oil consumption. They claim these work.
i have something similar.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557970
12/19/09 11:17 PM
12/19/09 11:17 PM
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UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
Quote:
Spark plug tubes can cause oil consumption. They claim these work.
i have something similar.
That should take care of that issue. I would remove the pcv and vent from the covers. Plug one side cover start and run the engine. See if you have pressure or vacuum at the other cover. If vacuum you know the intake is still not sealing. There should be a small amount of positive pressure blow by gas. If there is a lot then you can be certain there is a ring sealing problem.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: NITROUSN]
#557971
12/20/09 01:17 AM
12/20/09 01:17 AM
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mickm
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Quote:
That should take care of that issue. I would remove the pcv and vent from the covers. Plug one side cover start and run the engine. See if you have pressure or vacuum at the other cover. If vacuum you know the intake is still not sealing. There should be a small amount of positive pressure blow by gas. If there is a lot then you can be certain there is a ring sealing problem.
i'll do that next time i start it, and pull the carb and look for oil in the passages, and report back.
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: NITROUSN]
#557972
12/20/09 01:29 AM
12/20/09 01:29 AM
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Re: where is my oil going?
#557973
12/20/09 02:40 AM
12/20/09 02:40 AM
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Anybody think 8-10% is kinda high on a leakdown test? IIRC, 4% is about the most you would like to see. I'm sure you could run one that is worse than that and be fine but he is at double or more of that.
I want my fair share
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#557974
12/20/09 04:05 AM
12/20/09 04:05 AM
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mickm
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Quote:
Anybody think 8-10% is kinda high on a leakdown test? IIRC, 4% is about the most you would like to see. I'm sure you could run one that is worse than that and be fine but he is at double or more of that.
dont' know for sure. i was told that somewhere around 4% was great for a race engine, 8-10% was somewhat average for a street engine with some miles on it.
that said, would be nice it if was better, but my understanding was that it wasn't bad either.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: Crizila]
#557976
12/20/09 12:58 PM
12/20/09 12:58 PM
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One thing is for sure, from the pics, the ports and backs of the intake valves indicate lots of oil getting in there - way too dark for a motor with 6-7K on it. With that coloration, the inside of the PCV hose will be wet with oil if it is getting in that way. Are you sure the carnkcase isn't over filled??? Run it with the PCV blocked off and both valve covers open to atmosphere and see if the consumption stops.
that is 64post's engine. i will find out if i have the same issue today...
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557979
12/20/09 02:34 PM
12/20/09 02:34 PM
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MR_P_BODY
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Borrow a gauge and put the hose on the dip stick tube and run the car with the same set up you normally run an see what the gauge says..... if you have pressure it isnt evacuating even with the PCV and breathers which would indicate a ring issue.... if you dont have pressure its more likely to be a intake issue... a leak check or compression check can not tell you anything OUTSIDE of the cylinders(cant tell you if the intake is sealed or not) Also for a quick check.... change the PCV and make sure its a V-8 one... there is one for a 4 banger also
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557980
12/20/09 02:42 PM
12/20/09 02:42 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post
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Quote:
Quote:
One thing is for sure, from the pics, the ports and backs of the intake valves indicate lots of oil getting in there - way too dark for a motor with 6-7K on it. With that coloration, the inside of the PCV hose will be wet with oil if it is getting in that way. Are you sure the carnkcase isn't over filled??? Run it with the PCV blocked off and both valve covers open to atmosphere and see if the consumption stops.
that is 64post's engine. i will find out if i have the same issue today...
Yeah John, pay attention you old fart... 
I actually know why my ring seal is bad, I was posting the pics for Mick's benefit. If you notice in my pic the valley tray is segregated from the intake ports so it's impossible to suck oil from the valley.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#557981
12/20/09 03:57 PM
12/20/09 03:57 PM
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mickm
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Have you check the intake fitment without a gasket to see if the space at the top of the intake manifold to the heads is the same at the top and the bottom on all four corners, top and bottom  If not you may want to do that, it is not unusual for the intake to not fit properly after the heads are cut and the block decked and so on. Some of the motors from the factory weren't close to being correct 
i did check the fitment of the intake. sitting in place with no gaskets the gap between the manifold and heads was nice and even all the way.
i sealed the intake according to tim banning's instructions, so i'm hoping that is good. i'm going to check that this afternoon, and if i fire it up then i'll play with some of the other things listed here and see if i can track this down.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#557983
12/20/09 04:34 PM
12/20/09 04:34 PM
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That is good to know about the PCV. Will the 4 banger part even fit? What is different if it will?
and how do i know which is which?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557984
12/20/09 04:56 PM
12/20/09 04:56 PM
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MR_P_BODY
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Quote:
Quote:
That is good to know about the PCV. Will the 4 banger part even fit? What is different if it will?
and how do i know which is which?
To look at them they look the same... but the flow/orfice
is larger on the V-8... you have to take the counter
guys word on it I guess
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557985
12/20/09 06:45 PM
12/20/09 06:45 PM
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so i took the rear carb off, and i found that rubbing my finger inside the intake, it came up slightly oily. not oily like rubbing your finger along the dipstick or something, just a minor oily film. i could feel that just about anywhere my finger could reach.
took the back carb off, (where the pcv is), and it seemed slightly less. remember that the front and rear of the manifold is connected by a cross over tunnel in the manifold.
wiping a swab down in the head portion of the intake port just came out slightly greyish, not particularly oily.
the pcv Is NOT closed at idle or partial throttle, up to 3-4k. this is no load though. it is open and sucking air, and when i put my finger over it, the idle drops.
i put a piece of tissue paper over the breather tied down with a rubber band. with the pcv in place there was negative pressure, it was sucked in a bit, as you would expect.
when i pulled the pcv out of the valve cover, no pressure on the tissue.
at idle there is some visible blowby. light though, i had to look to see that it was there, but once i saw it, you do notice it. higher rpm no visible sign.
sounds like at the very least i need a new pcv. i went to the local parts store, and no breather that will fit, didn't think to check for a new pcv.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557986
12/21/09 12:20 PM
12/21/09 12:20 PM
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i'm going to look for a breather that will fit, and eliminate the pcv. that will at least tell me if it is directly involved with the oil consumption.
sound like a good plan?
Last edited by mickm; 12/21/09 12:25 PM.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557987
12/21/09 12:35 PM
12/21/09 12:35 PM
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moper
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I think 10% ona fresh engine is too high. Leakdowns tell you the condition of the compression ring.. the top ring.. But if the top ring isnt sealing gasses, the 2nd ring isn't scraping the oil well and the oil rings arent doing their job well either. Ona modern built moly ringed engine the cross hatch should barely be visible. The rings need a smooth finish to seat properly and they will show less than 4% leakdown if they have. IMO, yours haven't. If you disconnected the PCV and drove it for 50 miles you should see no drop in oil level if it's sucking past the valve. I dont think it is.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: moper]
#557988
12/21/09 01:21 PM
12/21/09 01:21 PM
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The rings need a smooth finish to seat properly and they will show less than 4% leakdown if they have. IMO, yours haven't.
i kind of figured that, but will have to deal with that at another time.
Quote:
If you disconnected the PCV and drove it for 50 miles you should see no drop in oil level if it's sucking past the valve. I dont think it is.
if it's sucking past the PCV, then i should see a drop in oil use, is that what you mean? if it's the rings, then obviously that won't help, but at least i eliminate this as a source.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557989
12/21/09 07:34 PM
12/21/09 07:34 PM
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Quote:
my engine still uses a lot of oil, quart or so every 100+ miles. haven't checked it exactly, but it's a lot.
brief history. after i got it took the heads off, and found that the intake was very loose and sucking oil. it was bad, the gaskets were wet along the bottom for all the ports. thought i found the problem, all else looked in good shape, so just did a re-gasket, (and cam, new intake), and put it back together. better, but still sucked oil.
leak down showed 8-10% for all cylinders, compression test good, (forget the numbers, but all very close). was sure it was the guides/seals. took the heads off again for this reason, (but also to have them ported), and found it was again leaking through the intake, (i didn't know these had to be sealed with gunk).
so here i am now.
- guides were fine, new seals.
- sealed intake.
- cylinder walls looked good, nice crosshatch still visible.
- plugs do not show signs of oil consumption, (maybe very minor, but i have nice tan insulators, with the slightest bit of soot around the rim, don't know if it's oil or slightly rich mixture).
- leak down and compression tests were a few thousand miles ago, so things could have changed.
- q-tip in pcv port at carb came out grayish, but certainly not what i would expect if it was sucking that much oil through there.
does blow a little blue smoke when starting it up after cold and sitting for a while, but not bad.
if i have been driving normal for a bit, and then nail it, it does blow a big one time puff of smoke out the back, but it's hard to tell the color from looking back. seems that clearing that once or twice is fine, then no more smoke on nailing it.
does not seem to smoke any other times but those two.
so where do i go from here? is it possible that my oil rings are in that bad a shape? engine probably has 6-7k miles on it.
Jeez, that sounds like what mine used to do. I was loosing a quart every 500 miles. At the time i had two problems:
Loose guides thanks to who ever machined the MP aluminum heads.
Too much piston to wall clearance again thanks to who ever honed the block (crate engine).
The big tell tail was oil in the tail pipe. The intake is major problem. Which gaskets are you using? Are they the thin ones? The Mister Gasket pieces are solid right accross and less likely to get sucked in. I know Tim uses the right stuff around the parts. I found the Hylomar blue works great It stays flexible and is not effected by fuel.
Have you checked the guides. The only way to really check this properly is to pull a valve spring and lower the valve slightly and wiggle it around. It may have a slight movement but if it moves alot, the guide is bad.
Mine leak around the breather tubes as well. Do you have the 70 and up covers or the 69 and down covers?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557992
12/22/09 12:35 PM
12/22/09 12:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
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Quote:
i kind of figured that, but will have to deal with that at another time.
If it's the issue, you may be dealing with it sooner 
Quote:
if it's sucking past the PCV, then i should see a drop in oil use, is that what you mean? if it's the rings, then obviously that won't help, but at least i eliminate this as a source.
That is what I meant, yes. Try to isolate and remove the possibile causes one at a time. Breather, PCV, gasket leaks. The only real hard evidence you have is oil levels dropping an bad leakdown. Those alone are not enough to determine a cause.  Keep after it!
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: torkrules]
#557993
12/22/09 12:55 PM
12/22/09 12:55 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: moper]
#557997
12/22/09 11:22 PM
12/22/09 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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an attempt to answer all the latest questions: - alum mopar heads, older versions. - heads were recently done by a very reputable head guy. guides were fine, new seals. - 69 and down valve covers, inserts for the spark plug tubes in the heads - don't remember the intake gasket brand. intake with no gaskets had even distance all the way around between the heads and intake. with gasket in place, there was room to squish the gasket. no end seal gaskets, just used the right stuff to seal ends. sealed both sides of the gasket according to tim bannings instructions. - grandpa, i don't think i have the same issue, but wouldn't know with the intake on. i will have to look at a picture of the manifold and heads. i don't think i'm leaking at the intake. i had a cotton swab down in the port past where the intake seals, and it came up dry. a light grayish coloration on the swab. when i was leaking from the intake before, i could run my finger over it and come up almost dripping. i talked with tim at FHO, and he agreed, get rid of the PCV. i'm at least going to do that to see if it changes things. one thing i noticed about my PCV valve is it doesn't seem to shut off. the ball is loose and wiggles around, but when there is no vacuum on it it should be closed, and it isn't. this could be affecting things... i've got it disconnected, just need to get a breather, and will go from there. thanks for all the help everyone
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#557998
12/23/09 08:20 AM
12/23/09 08:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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Hey Mick,
The PVC is a controlled vacuum leak. At idle, vacuum is high (theoretically) and should keep the ball closed. When you mash the throttle, vacuum drops and the ball goes loose. This is where most of the blow by/crankcase pressurization occurs and forces this stuff up the valve covers and back into the intake. When the engine is off (no vacuum) the ball should rattle around.
Now, if your cam has alot of overlap which results in low vacuum, the ball may not close down acting as if you were at a wide throttle position. If you have a baffle under the valve cover, there should not be much oil going into the PCV. If there were, the hose should have oil in it as well as the intake. Also, where do you have the hose connected to? It should go on the carb. If you connect it to the intake, the nearest cylinders may go a little lean.
I know alot of guys just run two breathers and no PVC, but if it were me I'd like to have some sort of positive venting system for the crank case like an evacupan system (running two hoses to the headers and letting the exhaust gas create a small vacuum)
If your tail pipes are clean (no oily goo that looks like a two stroke), then I would suspect it's more likely an intake/head seal problem unless the oil rings/second ring fell out or you are using low tension oil rings. With as little miles that you have on it, I doubt it's a ring issue.
What was the piston to wall clearance? Has it been doing this since it was built or just started recently?
The 69 and under valve covers have unique issues since the breathers fit onto stacks (more of a problem for the PVC). Tony D'agustino sells a nice repo breather but they are about 100 bucks. You might find a Chivey breather the might fit but the PVC you'll need to find from a repo place. Mopar used to sell them but I find fewer and fewer parts are available from MP. And yes the stacks do seep oil. The thinner the oil, the worse it is.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: torkrules]
#557999
12/23/09 08:51 AM
12/23/09 08:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Quote:
The PVC is a controlled vacuum leak. At idle, vacuum is high (theoretically) and should keep the ball closed. When you mash the throttle, vacuum drops and the ball goes loose. This is where most of the blow by/crankcase pressurization occurs and forces this stuff up the valve covers and back into the intake. When the engine is off (no vacuum) the ball should rattle around.
I think this is incorrect. The PCV is a controlled vacuum leak. However it is not held closed by vacuum. It's closed by pressure on the carb side that seats the check ball. That's to stop a backfire from going into the crankcase if memory serves right. Either vacuum from the carb, or pressure from the crankcase will un-seat the ball. The only reason to remove it is when there is very low idle vacuum or for cylinder to cylinder tuning(balancing). Breathers alone typically do not stay dry. The vapor condenses and fills the filter media in the breathers then runs out and gets blown all over.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: moper]
#558000
12/23/09 02:12 PM
12/23/09 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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well, all this is getting interesting. i'm hearing both sides of the story, that the PCV should be closed at idle, that it should be open at idle.
i think it is time for a little PCV theory investigation on my part.
here are things as they stand:
- i'm eliminating the PCV to see if that changes my oil consumption. i may put it back later, but for now i need to at least rule that aspect out.
- according to tim at FHO, just get rid of it.
- either way, i don't think my valve is working correctly, as it seems to not be able to fully close, and therefore restrict the air flow, (whether it is at idle or WOT).
- i just retuned the carbs after taking the PCV out, and i'm running 13" of vacuum at idle. more than enough to close that valve if it is supposed to be closed at idle.
- i don't know the piston to wall clearance. there are times when starting the engine cold that i hear some piston slap, so i'm sure i have issues there.
- pcv was connected to carb, not manifold.
will see what no PCV does, but i also need to determine if mine is working correctly. if it isn't, then once i see what happens with oil consumption, i will decide if i want to get one that is working and put it back on. i too like the idea of some additional help in ventilating the crankcase.
Last edited by mickm; 12/23/09 02:20 PM.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558002
12/23/09 02:37 PM
12/23/09 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Quote:
well, all this is getting interesting. i'm hearing both sides of the story, that the PCV should be closed at idle, that it should be open at idle.
i think it is time for a little PCV theory investigation on my part.
here are things as they stand:
- i'm eliminating the PCV to see if that changes my oil consumption. i may put it back later, but for now i need to at least rule that aspect out.
- according to tim at FHO, just get rid of it.
- either way, i don't think my valve is working correctly, as it seems to not be able to fully close, and therefore restrict the air flow, (whether it is at idle or WOT).
- i just retuned the carbs after taking the PCV out, and i'm running 13" of vacuum at idle. more than enough to close that valve if it is supposed to be closed at idle.
- i don't know the piston to wall clearance. there are times when starting the engine cold that i hear some piston slap, so i'm sure i have issues there.
- pcv was connected to carb, not manifold.
will see what no PCV does, but i also need to determine if mine is working correctly. if it isn't, then once i see what happens with oil consumption, i will decide if i want to get one that is working and put it back on. i too like the idea of some additional help in ventilating the crankcase.
A PCV doesnt close all the way... at idle it has a
small orfice that its pulling air... then as you
step on the gas the engine drops in vac and opens another
larger orfice
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: RodStRace]
#558004
12/23/09 03:36 PM
12/23/09 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
how with drawings
http://www.envalve.com/how.html
and this.
at idle and low vacuum it should be drawing the least amount of air through. makes sense, as that is when there should be the least amount of blow by in the crankcase.
mine was drawing so much at idle that it sucked my finger to the valve opening, and dramatically changed my idle. that plus the amount of oil around the outside of the filler tube tells me that most likely my valve is bad.
so again, first i will eliminate it completely, and then i will look for a replacement.
btw, anyone know where to find a replacement? local part store didn't seem to have anything...
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558005
12/31/09 09:47 PM
12/31/09 09:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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minor update. disconnected the pcv and put another breather on, (cheap mr. gasket). went driving to put some miles on it to see what's up. came back, and the breather is gone! blew the sucker right off! luckily, as far as i can see, it didn't damage anything, just fell off and rolled down the road i guess. it didn't fit as tightly as the other one, and i did wonder about it, but i decided it would probably be fine.  splattering of oil around the tube in the valve cover and the under side of the hood. what worries me more is that there is oil on the valve cover around the other breather. i really don't want to go with an evacuation pump. there are plenty of big inch motors out there, i just have to find the setup that is going to work for me. bad news though, i still went through a quart in 150-200 miles....
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: RodStRace]
#558006
12/31/09 11:23 PM
12/31/09 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Romeo MI
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Quote:
how with drawings
http://www.envalve.com/how.html
If you notice while the engine running it never closes,
as vac decreases it opens wider... idle still maintains
some flow
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558007
01/01/10 03:18 AM
01/01/10 03:18 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
didn't blow it out of the grommet, this was a breather stuck down over the filler pipe coming up out of the valve cover. the other breather is tighter, and has never been an issue. this one was looser, and i wondered about it when i put it on, but figured it would be ok. apparently not.
as far as the gauge, i have a pressure/vacuum gauge, but i'll have to rig it up with the right fittings to go over the dipstick, i haven't done that yet. will see if i can get to that this weekend.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558008
01/01/10 11:28 AM
01/01/10 11:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Quote:
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
didn't blow it out of the grommet, this was a breather stuck down over the filler pipe coming up out of the valve cover. the other breather is tighter, and has never been an issue. this one was looser, and i wondered about it when i put it on, but figured it would be ok. apparently not.
as far as the gauge, i have a pressure/vacuum gauge, but i'll have to rig it up with the right fittings to go over the dipstick, i haven't done that yet. will see if i can get to that this weekend.
Hi Mick,
Sorry to hear your having all of this trouble. Don't worry your not alone. Mine is apart again because #3 cam bearing must have turned somewhere along the way.
Once I tore it down, I find I'm sucking oil too. The only thing I can figure is the intake is not fitting correctly.
I hate to say it, but you may need to tear it down and do some investigating. Like I said earlier, I had a number of problems last time(too much piston to wall clearance, bad guides and probably a bad fitting intake). Those problems were fixed. My only constant is the intake. The stage V fits much better.
The problem is with all this oil getting in the combustion chamber, everything will look like a barbecue grill after cooking greasy ribs. I've spent my whole Christmas holidays taking heads apart and de-greasing chambers, pistons, and valves. Had a good gooey layer of this stuff on those parts. Onces its apart you can eliminate what its not.
It does sound like you have some blow by. Do you think the breather fell out of the stack due to road bumps? I'd think the stack should hold the breather in even if it is a little loose.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558009
01/01/10 11:35 AM
01/01/10 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
As to the OP ... if it blew the valve out of the
grommet, you have a blow by problem... have you put
a gauge on the dip stick tube yet
didn't blow it out of the grommet, this was a breather stuck down over the filler pipe coming up out of the valve cover. the other breather is tighter, and has never been an issue. this one was looser, and i wondered about it when i put it on, but figured it would be ok. apparently not.
as far as the gauge, i have a pressure/vacuum gauge, but i'll have to rig it up with the right fittings to go over the dipstick, i haven't done that yet. will see if i can get to that this weekend.
Get the fitting that will fit the gauge to hose,
then clamp the hose onto the dip stick, run enough
hose so you can tape the gauge to your windshield
so you can watch it during driving
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: torkrules]
#558011
01/01/10 02:03 PM
01/01/10 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
It does sound like you have some blow by. Do you think the breather fell out of the stack due to road bumps? I'd think the stack should hold the breather in even if it is a little loose.
i think it was road bumps and blow by pressure combined. i've never had an issue with the breather that was on there before or the pcv, (although obviously the connected pcv was relieving the pressure in the crankcase).
like i said, i was skeptical on the fit of this thing in the first place, but figured it was good enough.
so it is just eliminating things one by one. i'll test the pressure via the dipstick tube, and go from there.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558012
01/02/10 08:36 PM
01/02/10 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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put the gauge on the dipstick, and it was showing a slight bit of pressure at idle and slightly above, 1500 rpm or so. closed off the two breathers as best i could, (milk bottle tops and duct tape, high tech engine analysis equipment  ), and drove it around. it was slightly pressurized the whole time. about .5 psi. it didn't vary much at all that i could see. probably didn't have it above 2500 rpm, but drove around for a few minutes, and didn't notice any change. i would expect that the pressure would increase... i'm not sure exactly how well i had the breathers sealed off, but they were pretty close to sealed. but with no place for that pressure to go, except back into the cylinders, and a slight bit out the not-totally-sealed breathers, it seems that it should increase. unless it's being sucked in at the manifold?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558013
01/02/10 08:51 PM
01/02/10 08:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Romeo MI
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Now do the same thing with the breathers open/working, also what gauge are you using.... is it like 1 - 5 psi, being really low you should use a inches of water... but dont worry
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558014
01/02/10 08:57 PM
01/02/10 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
Now do the same thing with the breathers open/working,
also what gauge are you using.... is it like 1 - 5 psi,
being really low you should use a inches of water...
but dont worry
ok, will try that. i'm using a vacuum/fuel pressure gauge. testing it out, 1-2 lbs of pressure isn't that much, so i'm sure it is good enough for this.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558015
01/03/10 12:36 AM
01/03/10 12:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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I'm sorry to say it, but it sounds as if your blowby is excessive. It shouldn't be blowing that much oil out. A little bit is normal, but if it's wet all around it then I suspect it's going past the rings. Doesn't matter what the crosshatch looks like, if it's glazed it'll be an oil burner.
I feel you've covered all other avenues, if it's still burning that much oil and you don't have a vacuum source to be sucking it up, it's gotta be coming from the one other place it can come from. A leak down won't always catch this either as the rings might be sealing at TDC or BDC but not inbetween. Reversion could account for the oil in the intake tract.
I mean if it's not coming from the valve stems, pcv valve or the intake gaskets (or some misc crack or porosity elsewhere) that pretty much points to the cylinders.
Again, all that other stuff's been verified right?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558016
01/03/10 12:52 AM
01/03/10 12:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo
pro stock
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pro stock
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Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
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Hello mickm, What Mr P body is saying is that if your gauge reads high psi then the 0.5 psi reading is likely not accurate. Gauges should read about the middle of the psi expected for best accuracy. So in your case a 0 to 1 psi gauge would be ideal. Unless you have a very high reading gauge it is likely not a problem. There is another problem I ran across that simulates your conditions. My exhaust tubing was inserted to far into the reducer creating an unintentional reversion cone. This caused a relentless back pressure problem that went away when I had it re-welded into the correct position. Just another thing to check. Good luck. Damon
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mopardamo]
#558017
01/03/10 12:57 AM
01/03/10 12:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
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Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Hello mickm,
What Mr P body is saying is that if your gauge reads high psi then the 0.5 psi reading is likely not accurate. Gauges should read about the middle of the psi expected for best accuracy. So in your case a 0 to 1 psi gauge would be ideal. Unless you have a very high reading gauge it is likely not a problem.
There is another problem I ran across that simulates your conditions. My exhaust tubing was inserted to far into the reducer creating an unintentional reversion cone. This caused a relentless back pressure problem that went away when I had it re-welded into the correct position. Just another thing to check. Good luck.
Damon
If it was a ford it woulda ran better with exhaust backpressure. Fords like backpressure in the exhaust  . Somebody told me that once. I mean I read it in a book. Wasn't the Bible though so I have my doubts. 
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#558018
01/03/10 10:29 PM
01/03/10 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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the saga continues: i ran the car with the breathers on and the gauge connected to the dipstick tube, and got no reading at all. now, the gauge may not be sensitive enough for this application, as some have suggested, but at least it's safe to say it wasn't excessive. took the car for a drive, came back, oil all over the steering box, frame rail below the battery tray! and... no dipstick. no, the dipstick isn't on the side of the road, it's on the bench in plain sight, where i left it after not putting it back in. so, clean it up, out for another run, (which included WOT through 1st into 3rd), and there is oil running down the valve cover from the breathers. more on the drivers side, a little on the passenger side. now these are K/N breathers that are more like filters, with rubber grommets that slide over the outside of the stove pipe sticking up from the valve cover. so any oil blown up inside these has no place to go except out through the filter paper. so right now it seems i have 2 issues: 1) too much blow by 2) oil being either sucked into the engine (via the pcv), or blown out the breathers, at least partly, or mostly, because of the blowby. 1 i'm not going to do anything about right now. at least in the near future, i'm not going to tear the motor apart. but somehow i have to figure out how to keep the oil in the engine, and at least a good portion of my oil consumption should go away. my valve covers have baffles, (and it baffles me how that much oil gets past the baffles ). i will try my old breather on the driver side this week, and see if it leaks as much. i'm kind of thinking it won't, as it butts up against the top of the stove pipe, and so i would think a good deal of oil can simply run back down inside. it never leaked before, but i've run it with the pcv, where air was being sucked through that breather, and up through the pcv, along with oil. anyway, anyone have any thoughts about how to simply set this up so it can vent the crankcase, but not spew oil? or any other thoughts?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558019
01/03/10 10:57 PM
01/03/10 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Romeo MI
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Do you know what a separator bottle is... 2 tubes going into a bottle(just through the top) hook your PCV hose(from the carb) to one side of the bottle then hook the other to the PCV hose, that will put the bottle in line as a collector.... you might need to do the same on the breathers(larger hose will slow the volicity).... thats about all I can suggest untill you find the cause
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558020
01/03/10 11:11 PM
01/03/10 11:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
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Quote:
Do you know what a separator bottle is... 2 tubes
going into a bottle(just through the top) hook your
PCV hose(from the carb) to one side of the bottle
then hook the other to the PCV hose, that will put
the bottle in line as a collector.... you might need to
do the same on the breathers(larger hose will slow
the volicity).... thats about all I can suggest untill
you find the cause
so basically then you are saying that as the blowby gasses are exiting through the breather, there is enough velocity there that it picks up particles of oil to carry with it?
doesn't that mean that the oil is in a mist form, either in the heads, crankcase or both?
so how about a very simple test. if i put my hand over the breather tube in the valve cover on an engine that is properly ring sealed, and bring the rpm way up, then i should be able to feel the difference between my engine and that one?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558021
01/03/10 11:22 PM
01/03/10 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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so basically then you are saying that as the blowby gasses are exiting through the breather, there is enough velocity there that it picks up particles of oil to carry with it? doesn't that mean that the oil is in a mist form, either in the heads, crankcase or both? so how about a very simple test. if i put my hand over the breather tube in the valve cover on an engine that is properly ring sealed, and bring the rpm way up, then i should be able to feel the difference between my engine and that one?
Thats what gauges are for.... you have a ring/blow by
issue... all I was suggesting was a way to catch
the oil that comes out of the breathers and the PCV
untill you fix it... you could make a better baffle
system for the breathers
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#558022
01/03/10 11:26 PM
01/03/10 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
Thats what gauges are for.... you have a ring/blow by
issue... all I was suggesting was a way to catch
the oil that comes out of the breathers and the PCV
untill you fix it... you could make a better baffle
system for the breathers
yup, got it. thanks for all your help, i really appreciate it
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: NITROUSN]
#558024
01/03/10 11:48 PM
01/03/10 11:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
IMO You have a serious ring problem. If I was to look at your motor I would bet in 10 seconds of running time you have way to much blow by.
you know, that is what it is really looking like. what makes it a little difficult though was a good compression test and a good leakdown. and yes, there seems to be a wide range of interpretations on leakdown. mine averaged 8-9%. the guy whose gauges i used races, and he considers that absolutely fine for a street car. i have talked to others who say the same, and yet there are people on the board who say that is awful.
but none the less, it wouldn't seem that i should be having that kind of an issue.
wouldn't i expect to see much more pressure at my dipstick test?
or is it possible that the ring problem is only showing it's ugly face at WOT?
i understand that the real way to test this is with proper gauges, but if i put my hand over the valve cover breather and rev the engine for a bit, my hand doesn't come away covered in oil.
i'm just trying to get a grasp on this....
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: 64Post]
#558027
01/04/10 02:30 AM
01/04/10 02:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
Do you have a chassis dyno around?
yup, what are you thinkin?
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: 64Post]
#558030
01/04/10 01:51 PM
01/04/10 01:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
... You can put the gage on the dipstick tube, but I have the feeling you'll see for yourself the breather(s) being pushed up off the valve covers. AFAIC this is a straight forward blow by issue -- you've eliminated everything else. How much you can tolerate is up to you. Using two breathers might mask the issue, but it certainly won't fix it.
I really don't see how you can avoid re-honing and re-ringing the engine. Trust me, I'm in the same boat except as you, but right now I don't have the time or money to fix it.
i was planning on going this coming friday, just to tune it in. while it doesn't perform the way i want it to, it still is no slouch. and i know the A/F could still be dialed in better.
i agree that i will have to re hone/ring it, but for now i just have to figure a way to keep the oil inside the engine. there has to be a way to do that, even if i have to rig a more extensive baffle system inside the valve cover...
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558031
01/04/10 07:36 PM
01/04/10 07:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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I said before the smart way is to sddress the problem. Yes, it stinks but everything points to a ring sealing issue. It's not designed to hold pressure in. It's designed to NOT HAVE PRESSURE in the crankcase. The more you have, the more issues will be with ring seal (AKA vacuum pumps for race engines that encourage ring seal...) I dont think you'll be able to seal it up. Plug all the obvious points and it will start pushing out the rear main and gaskets. I wish you luck, but I think it's a fruitless endeavor.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: where is my oil going?
[Re: mickm]
#558032
01/04/10 07:52 PM
01/04/10 07:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Quote:
... You can put the gage on the dipstick tube, but I have the feeling you'll see for yourself the breather(s) being pushed up off the valve covers. AFAIC this is a straight forward blow by issue -- you've eliminated everything else. How much you can tolerate is up to you. Using two breathers might mask the issue, but it certainly won't fix it.
I really don't see how you can avoid re-honing and re-ringing the engine. Trust me, I'm in the same boat except as you, but right now I don't have the time or money to fix it.
i was planning on going this coming friday, just to tune it in. while it doesn't perform the way i want it to, it still is no slouch. and i know the A/F could still be dialed in better.
i agree that i will have to re hone/ring it, but for now i just have to figure a way to keep the oil inside the engine. there has to be a way to do that, even if i have to rig a more extensive baffle system inside the valve cover...
Mick my friend, I sure do feel your pain.
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Ya need to bite the bullet and find out how much pressure you are dealing with 
