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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Monte_Smith] #553160
12/20/09 04:52 PM
12/20/09 04:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.




Can you please explain as you understand it. mike


Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte


I would like to add for all Mopars cars with the engine and trans in the stock or near stock location that if the angle of the front u-joint is within the specified angle(working range)of the manufacture recommendations or negative of the trans output shaft NO CORRECTION is require.Pinion angle is measured at the rear u-joint and should be adjusted at the rear u-joint to insure it maintains a reasonable alignment within the working range.Many high powered,high torqued performance cars may need additional negative pinion angle at the rear u-joint to ensure that under power and torque loads a reasonable working range is achieved and maintained.The angle will constantly change as the power/torque is increased or decreased.Never change the angle of the front joint buy raising or lowering the trans unless it is beyond the specified working range.If you have to shim the trans mount excessively look for a problem at your rear suspension.This is from a design engineer that claims hands on development on the Luner Rover suspension.So this will hopefully help 85% of the people with mopars with stock style cars that run springs,4links and ladder bars with stock style front suspensions and engine/trans locations.Most the rest of us know how to build race cars or have some professional do it for us.In typical "Barnyard Fashion"85% can now Moooovvvee on with confidence and rest of us can do what we do,while "Chiken Little" can cry that the sky will fall if you don't do the front angle thingee.No Disrespect to any one,just relaying what some wizeazz engineer told me,you all know what I think about engineers

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: B G Racing] #553161
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success #553162
12/20/09 06:49 PM
12/20/09 06:49 PM
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just what we needed a rocket scientist we have a 4x4 expert already

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success #553163
12/20/09 06:56 PM
12/20/09 06:56 PM
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s.w.fl
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I have sent the two methods to a group of scientific geniuses .
This is the very same group that did all the global warming research .However at the present time they are snow bound in Copenhagen. When they reply I will post their findings


i dont care what anybody thinks,thats the funniest thing Freds ever said!!! (mabey the only funny thing he,s ever said)

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Quicktree] #553164
12/20/09 08:06 PM
12/20/09 08:06 PM
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Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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who has more competitive SS/HA running today Dave Morgan or Mike Roth
same goes for pro mods and 10.5 cars Morgan or Monte




has really nothing to do with, Mike is one of the best around no doubt. but Dave has done more than write a book. he has workerd for some of the biggest names in the chassis business. and done consulting for some high dollar teams.


Why does he not do that now? Not knocking, just asking. And as I mentioned, he admitted to a friend of mine, that he was a good bit behind on some of the newer technology and needed to get to the track more often. The point is, theory and what is considered "right" change everyday.

Monte




he does, and has plans for more in the future. he is now a track manager (2010) he also does hands on track time. and plans for a new book where I bet he goes over this subject in depth




sign me up for the new book




why you already know everything. no need for you to read




i need something to laugh at while i'm on the hopper


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram

performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Quicktree] #553165
12/20/09 08:45 PM
12/20/09 08:45 PM
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Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Quote:

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Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.




Can you please explain as you understand it. mike


Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte




I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.






Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.

The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.

But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle.
But just move up and down.

Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.

For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.

For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.


Its obvious both schools of thought work,

but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike

Last edited by Sport440; 12/20/09 09:32 PM.
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Sport440] #553166
12/20/09 09:02 PM
12/20/09 09:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.

The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.

But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle.
But just move up and down.

Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.

For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.

For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.


Its obvious both schools of thought work,

but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan, Mark Williems ETC cant be that far off track.

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike





Yes that would be the case IF all the bars are equal
length and parallel BUT most all 4-links have un-
equal length bars, so they arc in different lines
even if parallel, now putting that you want to
have a IC point (instead of parallel) you have the
other point to play with....... JMO

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Sport440] #553167
12/21/09 02:02 AM
12/21/09 02:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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North Alabama
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pinion will move from it's preset angle and it's relationship to the driveshaft.




Can you please explain as you understand it. mike


Not Mike, but will answer for him, there is no "as we understand it", it is what it is. The pinion does NOT maintain the same plane, through the arc of differential travel. Don't know any other way to explain it. The differential, does not stay stationary in one spot and simply move up and down. It SWINGS in an ARC. If it does this, the pinion can not possibly stay on the same plane. A 4-link is, to way over simplify here, nothing more than a long ladder bar. Properly set up, if you extended the upper and lower bars, they would eventually intersect. This is the "Instant Center" of a 4-link. The rear swings in an arc, from this instant center. Now where a ladder bar and 4-link differ, is that a ladder bar has a constant instant center, that being the front mounting point and a 4 link has a large amount of instant center combinations, depending on where you position the bars. Also, with the position of the brackets on the housing and the fact that the top and bottom bars are generally not the exact same length, the instant center of a 4-link is also constantly changing as the rear swings. I don't know of any other more clear way to try to explain it.

Monte




I think I will get a gopro camera and take some video. and see how much movement we actually get.






Thanks Monte for the answer. I did a 4 link study today and as long as the 4 bars on the 4 link are the same length and bolted in level.

The Pinion angle will remain Exactly the same through out the axels/differentials entire arc. If set at horizontal that Same 0* plane will be maintained through the entire axels arc but yet still be inches apart. Not the Same Exact plane, just the Same Exact 0* plane inches apart.

But thats not the case when the bars are moved to other angles to achieve a desired IC. But the Pinions angle will remain close to its original position angle.
But just move up and down.

Bottom line for me is that I know u jounts are most efficient at parralell angles, even if that parralell angle is inches apart, while under power.

For me Pinion angle Only exists if measured from the tranny centerline.

For you, Bob,6Pac, others it seems Pinion angle Only exists if measured off the driveshaft.


Its obvious both schools of thought work,

but I think Me ,Quicktree,Spicer,Caltrac,Dave Morgan,Sarah Palin, Mark Williams,Bill Clinton ETC cant be that far off track.

My thoughts on this are fixed as are yours and others Its all good.

Untill the next Pinion angle Party, have a good one mike


The angle of the pinion will only remain stationary, if the bars are the exact same length, mounted on the same exact angle and the upper and lower mounting points on the rear end, are the same distance from axle centerline top and bottom and also front to rear. Since no "Race" 4-link brackets are constructed in this way, it is a moot point. As far as your list of scholars, well, quite a few years ago, all the "best minds in the world" said the world was flat. We see how that worked out.

Monte

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Monte_Smith] #553168
12/21/09 11:37 AM
12/21/09 11:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
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I checked how much the pinion angle changed with 2" of travel up and down. Even with 1" of up and down travel, the angle will still change, but not as much as this.
These bars are aprox 20" long, and I was told that this is a drawing of a SW 4-link. I usually have 2-4" longer bars in my own 4-link drawings.
IC is 45" and lower bar is 3° down, just as an example.

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: RT540] #553169
12/21/09 05:49 PM
12/21/09 05:49 PM
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Canton, Ohio
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Thanks RT540 and Monte. Your showing just over 5* pinion angle change at a 4" travel. Thats alot more then I expected with a 4 Link.

Thanks for answering in a way that my thick head could understand it. mike

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Sport440] #553170
12/21/09 07:02 PM
12/21/09 07:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14
Orange Park, Florida
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Quote:

Thanks RT540 and Monte. Your showing just over 5* pinion angle change at a 4" travel. Thats alot more then I expected with a 4 Link.

Thanks for answering in a way that my thick head could understand it. mike




Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Mrs Quicktree] #553171
12/21/09 08:11 PM
12/21/09 08:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Romeo MI
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Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know




Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: Mrs Quicktree] #553172
12/21/09 08:18 PM
12/21/09 08:18 PM

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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: MR_P_BODY] #553173
12/21/09 09:32 PM
12/21/09 09:32 PM
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Orange Park, Florida
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Quote:

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know




Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q




I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: Mrs Quicktree] #553174
12/21/09 09:36 PM
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Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success #553175
12/21/09 09:37 PM
12/21/09 09:37 PM
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Quote:

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Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know




Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q




I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans




OMG !!! I was right




that better

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: Mrs Quicktree] #553176
12/21/09 09:38 PM
12/21/09 09:38 PM
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Romeo MI
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Quote:

Mike my understanding of it is the bottom bar pushes and the top bar pulls. both rotating on an arc. I think thats the way one would explain. I am sure the guys will let us know




Welcome to our humble abode MRS Q




I forgot I was on my wifes computer we are in New Orleans





Oh well.... you can still tell her hello from me

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success #553177
12/21/09 09:38 PM
12/21/09 09:38 PM
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Kissimmee Fl.
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let's pray this is not who Mrs QuickTree really is





Tony how did Fred get your picture


70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake

best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: dusturbd340W5] #553178
12/21/09 09:40 PM
12/21/09 09:40 PM
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let's pray this is not who Mrs QuickTree really is





Tony how did Fred get your picture




yea he dables in male porn it looks like either that or he was looking for a new dress

Re: Dave Morgan chassis seminar a success [Re: moparniac] #553179
12/21/09 09:45 PM
12/21/09 09:45 PM
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Posts: 15
Orlando
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[quote 540 Dart]





Just dropping in to point out that billions of miles were put on production Fords and Chevies with the "WRONG" side view angles shown at the bottom of the above image. I'm referring, of course, to the once ubiquitous torque tube suspension.

Yes, there will be a very slight speed output variation with each revolution, but it's not the end of the world.

In the case of the Ramchargers' '49 Plymout C/A, every effort was made to make the crankshaft centerline and the pinion shaft centerline collinear. Can't recall the exact driveline angle, but with the valve covers pressed up against the underside of the hood, it was a bunch!
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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