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Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Dcuda69] #54858
01/24/09 11:18 AM
01/24/09 11:18 AM
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Seattle, WA
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375inStroke Offline
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How does the motor come back from the machine shop and you don't have the pistons yet? Aren't the cylinders machined to the requirements of the pistons? Do you have 902 or 906 heads? Not familiar with 902. What parts do you have, how fast do you want to run (don't know how fast your Chevelle is), and how much money do you have to spend. What's your car's weight, gear, trans... You want headers? That's a good price to power ratio addition if you can deal with the hassles.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: 375inStroke] #54859
01/24/09 01:31 PM
01/24/09 01:31 PM
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Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Milan Offline OP
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The challenger is for stoplight to stoplight fun. My wife takes her car and I take the Chevelle and we go cruising on the weekends. We throw the kids in the car and have fun. Every once in a while she will take it to the strip when we run the race car. I plan on putting the drag radials on the challenger and make them work. The chevelle runs mid 12s at 109mph. I was trying to figure out which KB Hyper piston to put in the 440 for the challenger.

4970066-p8260405jx7.jpg (148 downloads)
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54860
01/24/09 01:37 PM
01/24/09 01:37 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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do you have a cranking cr/psi with that cam?
are the chambers polished on the heads?

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54861
01/24/09 03:47 PM
01/24/09 03:47 PM
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Milan Offline OP
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The motor has never been together. Right now the car has a 318 in it. The heads are stock. I have not done any work to them.

Mike I just viewed some of your 8-71 pics. I had to throw my E-85 67 pic in here. No flames fellas

4970341-Camaro020.jpg (133 downloads)
Last edited by Milan; 01/24/09 03:55 PM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54862
01/24/09 04:01 PM
01/24/09 04:01 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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looks good.

4970372-Aug05$08.JPG (278 downloads)
Last edited by METAL STORM; 01/24/09 04:09 PM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54863
01/24/09 04:34 PM
01/24/09 04:34 PM
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NORTHERN VA
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THESHAKERPROJECT Offline
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For MAX TQ you want a small duration cam. I use a Crower cam #32243 that can be used with STOCK rockers/pushrods and STOCK converter and 323/355 gears. My 71 Charger R/T runs well inmto the 12s with this cam, thermoquad, holley street dominator intake, TTI Headers and 355 rear and stock 11.75 converter and drag radials. The car has unreal TQ that moves my 4000lb + car like you will not believe and the idle and drivability of my car is like stock. A combo like this in a lighter car like a Challenger should run low to mid 12s easily.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54864
01/24/09 05:11 PM
01/24/09 05:11 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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Quote:

I dont have a budget for a High HP build. That is why i am focusing on max torque. I doubt stock heads will support much more than that cam has to offer. The next best cam was almost twice the cost.



i like that cam!run it and see what it needs after that.
edit:i ran it in my dyno sim with that cam.

4970529-100_1810.jpg (144 downloads)
Last edited by METAL STORM; 01/24/09 11:51 PM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54865
01/24/09 07:40 PM
01/24/09 07:40 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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i have to recheck theKB-146 and 236 but here is a KB to look at.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=UEM%2DKB278030%2D8&autoview=sku
1.996 CH,.200quench pad that will help with the pump gas.with these you could polish some out of the chamber also or just smooth it.
edit: part 2 of above.

4970797-100_1807.jpg (130 downloads)
Last edited by METAL STORM; 01/24/09 11:56 PM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54866
01/25/09 01:41 AM
01/25/09 01:41 AM
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Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Milan Offline OP
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Mike, I am a bow tie guy. I am struggling to undestand the difference between the 1.996 amd the 2.057 Compression height as it pertains to Mopars. The math I did tels me that a 1.996 piston would leave the pistom too far in the hole. (?)

THX
Milan

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54867
01/25/09 02:11 AM
01/25/09 02:11 AM
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Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Quote:

The math I did tels me that a 1.996 piston would leave the pistom too far in the hole. (?)

THX
Milan




It would be too far in the hole, unless it's a quench done piston, in which case the quench dome would likely pop up an additional .140 or something like that. A flat top with a 1.996 would be nothing great, that's more like a stock late 60's 440 piston. If you want to build a zero deck 440 you want something with around a 2.060" compression height.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54868
01/25/09 02:18 AM
01/25/09 02:18 AM
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Quote:

Mike, I am a bow tie guy. I am struggling to undestand the difference between the 1.996 amd the 2.057 Compression height as it pertains to Mopars. The math I did tels me that a 1.996 piston would leave the pistom too far in the hole. (?)

THX
Milan




First, have you measured the distance from the gasket surface of each chamber of both heads to the flat part of the open chambers? You'll find that they rarely are the same so getting acurate quench is problematic, you wind up either grinding the chambers to equalized them (like Ron did) or milling each piston dome specificly for the chambers...With quench dome pistons you typically cut either the dome or the head to set quench anyway.. The deal on a short C/H is by lowering the flat area of the piston but raising the quench dome your able to get a reasonable compression ratio...If you keep the standard C/H & push the quench dome to within .040 of touching the compression ratio would be >11-1...

FWIW the machining needed to make quench work + rebuilding your heads will be close to equal the cost of Stealth heads which is why people continue to push you that way...Then there is the perfomance advantage of a better flowing head....

The bad thing is the short block needs to be built with the head choice in mind, if you build it expecting to put a closed chamber head on it later & shoot for zero deck than it will detonate with the open chamber head......

Good Luck with it...

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #54869
01/25/09 08:50 AM
01/25/09 08:50 AM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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that KB is a quench piston.check the link!i was waiting to get to this point and say that you need to measure the deck height when the engine is appart to be sure what you have then deck as needed or buy the piston that works.my 2.050CH piston was .060 in the hole.so you need to measure. there is a KB that is 2.065CH on the summit page.
Part Number: UEM-KB278030-8
Bore (in): 4.350 in.
Bore (mm): 110.490mm
Piston Style: Step head, with a trough
Piston Material: Hypereutectic aluminum
Compression Distance (in): 1.992 in.
Dome Height (in): 0.200 in.
Piston Head Volume (cc): -5.00cc
Wrist Pin Style: Press-fit or floating
Pin Diameter (in): 1.094 in.
Piston Ring Thickness: 5/64 in. x 5/64 in. x 3/16 in.
Quantity: Sold as a set of 8.
Notes: 0.200 inch quench dome height. Piston gram weight 775g, pin gram weight 190g.

Pistons, Hypereutectic, Step, 4.350 in. Bore, 5/64 in., 5/64 in., 3/16 in. Ring, Big Block Mopar, Set of 8
here is some stroke info.go to 440/440 kit 1/2 way down.
http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm
depending on the cc's of the head and if your block has never been decked.
here is the other piston.
Part Number: UEM-KB237030-8
Bore (in): 4.350 in.
Bore (mm): 110.490mm
Piston Style: Flat top, with two valve reliefs
Piston Material: Hypereutectic aluminum
Compression Distance (in): 2.067 in.
Piston Head Volume (cc): +5.00cc
Wrist Pin Style: Press-fit or floating
Pin Diameter (in): 1.094 in.
Piston Ring Thickness: 5/64 in. x 5/64 in. x 3/16 in.
Quantity: Sold as a set of 8.
Notes: Piston gram weight 770g, pin gram weight 190g.

Pistons, Hypereutectic, Flat, 4.350 in. Bore, 5/64 in., 5/64 in., 3/16 in. Ring, Big Block Mopar, Set of 8
here s the KB site link for info.
http://kb-silvolite.com/performance.php?action=details&P_id=27




Last edited by METAL STORM; 01/25/09 10:33 AM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54870
01/25/09 03:13 PM
01/25/09 03:13 PM
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Milan Offline OP
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It looks like the KB278 is the only one that will give me a good quench area clearance of 0.037. I will need to have machine work for the others. I was hoping to get 9.5:1 or 10:1 CR. It looks like that wont happen as the CR given for the 278 is 8.8:1....

Piston Style-KB to consider-quench dome HT-C.R. at 90cc-Option-Compr. height-Quench dome above deck-installed C.H.-quench clearance
step head-----KB2360600------.075-------9.9-----------Yes---------2.057---------0.047------------0.028-----------0.097
trough--------KB146060------0.075-------9.9-----------Yes---------2.057---------0.047------------0.028-0.----------097
big stephead--KB278060------0.200-------8.8-----------Yes---------1.992---------0.107-------------0.093-----------0.037
flattop--------KB237060------0-----------9.7------------no---------2.067--------------0.018--------0.018---- ------0.162
cancelled----- kb184-- -----0.140---------8.9 ----------no--------- 1.992----------- 0.047 ----------0.093 -----------0.084

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54871
01/25/09 03:19 PM
01/25/09 03:19 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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do you know the cc of your heads?88cc's
milling the head is fairly cheap.
you should have a lot of P/T clearance.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54872
01/25/09 03:25 PM
01/25/09 03:25 PM
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Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Milan Offline OP
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I CC-ed the heads and they are at 89cc-90cc across the board

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54873
01/25/09 03:28 PM
01/25/09 03:28 PM
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Quote:

I CC-ed the heads and they are at 89cc-90cc across the board




But did you measure the chamber depth on each one..

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54874
01/25/09 03:32 PM
01/25/09 03:32 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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well mopart did a test with head gaskets and the first point in cr gained 15HP[8/1cr to 9/1]the weather can change that so what is it worth to you? upgrade the cam later after you get the P/V measured with this cam.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #54875
01/25/09 03:36 PM
01/25/09 03:36 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I CC-ed the heads and they are at 89cc-90cc across the board




But did you measure the chamber depth on each one..



an easy fix with a scotchbrite disc.

4972482-Mar06^17.JPG (301 downloads)
Last edited by METAL STORM; 01/25/09 03:39 PM.
Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: blownzoom440] #54876
01/25/09 03:43 PM
01/25/09 03:43 PM
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Milan Offline OP
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The step in each cylinder was at or very close to 1.05".

Looks like my best bet will be the KB278 then. I guess its more inportant to have as efficient of a cylinder (good quench) than a higher CR and poor quench.

I'm just not used to pistons being so far in the hole and I am struggling with that. I guess its from my time on the BowTie side of the fence.

Re: 440 Build up for max TQ Help. [Re: Milan] #54877
01/25/09 03:54 PM
01/25/09 03:54 PM
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blownzoom440 Offline
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maybe there isanother piston and you have not found it yet. used or new.

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