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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529672
11/18/09 10:18 AM
11/18/09 10:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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while a helper turns the key to "start" you check voltages at the "point" of the pentastar ECU connector and at the coil positive primary terminal with your VOM & if no fire work your way back to the bulkhead via the ballast & further upstream (under the dash) if need be & can take off the brown "sol" wire at the starter relay to keep the starter from running down the batt if needed.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: MoparforLife]
#529673
11/18/09 02:01 PM
11/18/09 02:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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if BRAKES light on cluster dims but doesn't turn off, then ballast and bulkhead are good, although is something to check.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#529675
11/18/09 05:29 PM
11/18/09 05:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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my 73 duster would start and die...i thought it was the ballast resistor, i traced the problem to the bulkhead connector.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529677
11/18/09 07:31 PM
11/18/09 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
Dodgeballs
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
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Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil. If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire. Quote:
Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#529678
11/18/09 08:16 PM
11/18/09 08:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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do you have the brakes light OFF at cluster while cranking ?
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529680
11/19/09 01:23 PM
11/19/09 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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make sure that you have a good ground from the rear of the engine to the fire wall too. Very important.
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529681
11/19/09 11:24 PM
11/19/09 11:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
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Try swapping out the ECU for one that you know works.
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: 383man]
#529683
11/20/09 07:52 AM
11/20/09 07:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,564
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
bigsbigelow
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,564
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.
If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.
Quote:
Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?
That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron
Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529684
11/20/09 08:21 AM
11/20/09 08:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.
If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.
Quote:
Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?
That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron
Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?
Duh  
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#529685
11/20/09 09:20 AM
11/20/09 09:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,564
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
bigsbigelow
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,564
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes. Same way on my Challenger. When you start turn the ignition key to start, the IGN1 "Run" wire that goes to the ballast resistor (the power for the coil while key is in "run" position) is not hot. Only the full voltage IGN2 "Start" wire that gives extra power to the coil while starting is hot. This is the wire that is connected to the same side of the ballast resistor as the wire that connects to the + terminal on the coil.
If you bypass the ballast resistor (say to connect the "run" wire to an MSD control) you will not get voltage while cranking. To fix this, splice the IGN2 wire to the IGN1 wire.
Quote:
Having a weird problem. Power to my Duster's ignition system dies when I turn the key to start. I can start the car by bumping the relay with key in the run position. Any one else had this problem and have a cure?
That is correct. You could unplug the ballast and the car should still start but of course it will die as soon as you let go of the key. The ing 2 is the bypass for the ballast in the crank position sending battery voltage to the coil while cranking.
Does the car crank over when in the start position ? Ron
Yes, the car will crank over just won't run. I can set the key to run and fire the car from the relay and it runs fine. I do have a dual ballast wiring harness but just have it hooked up to a single MSD ballast resistor to match my Blaster Coil. Could that be a problem?
Duh
haha Figures. Could I splice the wires and fix them together with a single end and fix the problem or would that just mess things up more?
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: bigsbigelow]
#529686
11/20/09 10:47 AM
11/20/09 10:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:
Could I splice the wires and fix them together with a single end and fix the problem or would that just mess things up more?
connect the blue and the brown wires together on the one connector & you're set. (4 pin ECU I'm assuming) EDIT you have the OE double connectors/wiring harness that were on each end of the 4 terminal ballast and you plugged your new 2 terminal ballast into one half of each of these plastic connectors? If this is correct jump the blue to the brown.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 11/20/09 11:26 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: 71383beep]
#529688
11/20/09 01:23 PM
11/20/09 01:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Try swapping out the ECU for one that you know works.
The ECU does not get power when on IGN1 or start. Power is sent directly to the coil (brown wire from post 22 on FSM). When you let go of the key after the motor catches the key detents to IGN2 or Run which then sends power to the ballast resistor and in turn ECU (Blue wire from Post 23 on FSM). During start the ECU is not needed.
A classic ballast resitor or ECU problem is the car will START but not RUN. This problem is opposite to that which means something is wrong between the switch and the wiring directly to the coil or the switch itself.
I have an orange box that TRIES to start on run, but nothing on start.
My truck had a factory ECU that TRIED to start on run but not on start.
My buddy told me to swap out the ECUs, and I told him 100 times it couldn't be it.
I swapped out the ECU on my truck, it started right up.
I checked grounds, ballast resistors, wiring, voltage, coils, ignition switch, EVERYTHING.
It was the ECU swap that made my problems go away..
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: 71383beep]
#529689
11/20/09 01:28 PM
11/20/09 01:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Guys!!! he is talking about MSD BALLAST not MSD IGNITION!!!
brown and blue on diff sides of ballast doesn't have to be spliced together I REPEAT, DOESN'TY HAVE TO BE SPLICED TOGETHER... thats is just for MSD IGN MODULES, but not for the ballast with stock ECU modules
I state brown and blue wires on diff side ob ballast because on earliers, the wire going to coil is blue but with a brown splice on ballast coming from ign switch ( that changed since 70 with electronic regulator, getting brown to coil ). These also gets another blue on the other side of ballast.
All you have to check is if you have power on blue wire of ballast in RUN. and if you get power on brown wire of ballast in START.
BTW, ECU GETS POWER IN START, is not true doesn't get power in Start. What is true is ECU doesn't get power in Start directly coming from ign switch. It gets power in Start THROUIGHT teh ballast, what woks like a splice. Of course, reduced power, due the ballast effect, but enough to work.
The ballast making the splice function is what help you on check the correctnes wiring and ballast function if you get the brake light at cluster dimmed but still working when cranking
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: NachoRT74]
#529690
11/20/09 06:15 PM
11/20/09 06:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
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Well looking over the diagram technically it shouldn't run in either case.... So obviously his wirings a bit different (aftermarket it sounds like). http://www.hemmings.com/images/mopar-5-wire-diagram.gifIn any case there's no reason to try to run the stupid MSD balast there's nothing wrong with the factory 4 prong ballast. Go get one, plug it in and tell us if there's any difference... Edit: wait that's a 5 wire ECU...well in any case ditch the stupid MSD ballast and run the 4 prong... then go check your ignition switch wiring.
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: NachoRT74]
#529694
11/21/09 10:40 AM
11/21/09 10:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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BTW, just posting somwthing more...
I'm having quite often a similar problem when engtine is warm. Engine doesn't fire up while cranking but when release the key to RUN. I'm sure I have my wiring all good and ballast. Thinking on some internal piece on ECU is damaged when hot, making hard to fire when cranking.
When cranking, the ECU is feeded through ballast, so maybe some condenser, resistor, transistor or Diode inside ECU is out of range and makes it hard to fire up when power is not high as posible from source. Being ECU is feeded from ballast when cranking and when warn resistance is higher, I have reasons to think on that
What I have discovered is that clicking the key back and forth couple of times, like getting on and off any device, makes maybe some excitation on the damaged device, and then makes fire up the engine normally.
will proove that soon, when I get my replacement of the Chromed Box in next days. Used but claimed never failed ( preffer that than a new without guarantee is perfect )
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: NachoRT74]
#529695
11/21/09 11:33 AM
11/21/09 11:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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jump the brown and blue like this & see if you're good.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: RapidRobert]
#529696
11/21/09 05:26 PM
11/21/09 05:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,270
Missouri
MY340
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,270
Missouri
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I had some weird starting & dieing problem right after I bought my Duster. Problem seemed to be intermittent so that wasn't fun either. Finally last thing I did was swap wires from top to bottom & vice versa on my 4 prong ballast resistor and viola' easy starts and no more hard starts and runs great.  I'm glad I had a wiring diagram to verify someone had it backwards.
1970 FE5 Duster 360/904/3.91's SOLD
1973 TB3 SpaceDuster 340/4spd/4.10's SOLD
Moparless for now but when the opportunity is right I'll have another one.
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Re: Power to Ignition dies when key is turned to start
[Re: NachoRT74]
#529697
11/21/09 05:44 PM
11/21/09 05:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,477
Canada
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Quote:
BTW, just posting somwthing more...
I'm having quite often a similar problem when engtine is warm. Engine doesn't fire up while cranking but when release the key to RUN. I'm sure I have my wiring all good and ballast. Thinking on some internal piece on ECU is damaged when hot, making hard to fire when cranking.
When cranking, the ECU is feeded through ballast, so maybe some condenser, resistor, transistor or Diode inside ECU is out of range and makes it hard to fire up when power is not high as posible from source. Being ECU is feeded from ballast when cranking and when warn resistance is higher, I have reasons to think on that
What I have discovered is that clicking the key back and forth couple of times, like getting on and off any device, makes maybe some excitation on the damaged device, and then makes fire up the engine normally.
will proove that soon, when I get my replacement of the Chromed Box in next days. Used but claimed never failed ( preffer that than a new without guarantee is perfect )
EXACTLY what my orange box failures have been.
I had a brand new orange box, used it for maybe a week sparingly and it wouldn't restart hot.
It now sits under my seat, waiting for me to toss it out, cause it's basically useless.
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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That can't be right.
