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Re: 700 HP small block [Re: DakFink] #491510
10/09/09 11:01 AM
10/09/09 11:01 AM
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emarine01 Offline OP
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The reason for the post was, I ran into a chevy 434cid dyno sheet bragging contest @ a local builders shop the other day and got to see the dyno #s on alot of the trucks and rails we run with Every one was over 700 ponies from all different builders with a guy Scott Scharoff< I think that was the builders name not sure of the spelling but sounds like the russian vodka> having built several of the engines, all in the low 700hp range under 8K, It seems that if I step up a class my W5 rig wont be too competitive @ around 600hp, my engine has not been on a dyno so I don't know the real hp of my engine but I think 600 is close, some of the trucks I have already out run in the past but the rails and the light jeeps kick butt, So I have been kickin around what it will take to build a 700hp small bock mopar to compete, I have a good set of W5s that flow 325@ 600 and I dont remember the 700 flow #s but there was a small increase over 600, I don't trust my 40 year old factory block or the 6 other small blocks I have collected to run a bore over 4.06, I have a good 4"light crank and a set of BME 6.123 rods and several solid rollers I can reuse, just lacking a solid game plan, money is a bit tight this year so throwing 12k into a small block is not a smart option, this is a mud motor so the torque needs to be way up with the hp curve

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: B3422W5] #491511
10/09/09 11:01 AM
10/09/09 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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RyanJ  Offline
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State College, PA
Just depends on the dyno. 340Ricks old 416 W5 on pump gas made 676? on Kammer & Kammer's dyno. That was pretty basic mild combo. On that dyno, it would have been pretty easy to make couple changes to motor & hit 700+.

If combo's are not ran on same dyno, there is no sense in trying to compare #s.

I see over on Yellowbullet one of this years Engine Masters competitors talking about how for some reason this year the dynos @ the contest are reading way low for everybody, & I pretty much figured that out after day 1. There's a pair of dyno's that are reading different this year compared to last..... Maybe they are new DTS's but I doubt it, I assume they are the exact same ones as used for last couple years & for some reason they now read lower than in years past?

That's why I always ask potential customers 2 questions whenever they start spouting off about how much HP they "need" or "want".... I ask how much is car going to weigh, & how fast does it need to go? & I know based on experience what it will take to make it run the #. Sometimes what they want is unachievable... often times they are surprised when I tell them, Oh you don't need nearly as much power as you think to run those #'s. Everyone with a 3000-3100LB car thinks they need 700 HP to run a 9.90 or 10.0... & you don't.

Don your W5 motor put on Kammer&Kammer, or BES's Dyno would make at least 690's as it sits, throw a vacuum pump on or maybe convert intake to 4500 flange & it would be easy over 700 on those dynos. It's just a # & is'nt worth arguing about.

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: emarine01] #491512
10/09/09 11:11 AM
10/09/09 11:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Brian Hafliger  Offline
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Posts: 5,484
SoCal
Quote:

The reason for the post was, I ran into a chevy 434cid dyno sheet bragging contest @ a local builders shop the other day and got to see the dyno #s on alot of the trucks and rails we run with Every one was over 700 ponies from all different builders with a guy Scott Scharoff< I think that was the builders name not sure of the spelling but sounds like the russian vodka> having built several of the engines, all in the low 700hp range under 8K, It seems that if I step up a class my W5 rig wont be too competitive @ around 600hp, my engine has not been on a dyno so I don't know the real hp of my engine but I think 600 is close, some of the trucks I have already out run in the past but the rails and the light jeeps kick butt, So I have been kickin around what it will take to build a 700hp small bock mopar to compete, I have a good set of W5s that flow 325@ 600 and I dont remember the 700 flow #s but there was a small increase over 600, I don't trust my 40 year old factory block or the 6 other small blocks I have collected to run a bore over 4.06, I have a good 4"light crank and a set of BME 6.123 rods and several solid rollers I can reuse, just lacking a solid game plan, money is a bit tight this year so throwing 12k into a small block is not a smart option, this is a mud motor so the torque needs to be way up with the hp curve




If you find a nice block, and use your parts you should be able to be competitive with your competition from what you've stated.
The heads might need a little attention, and you may need a vacume pump/low drag ring pack and you might not.
Can you strike a deal with these dyno guys to dyno the engine before and after?
I do this alot, charge the customer alot less to do the engine before and after, on same dyno to see the gains and find out how much you had from the start.
Just a thought....


Brian Hafliger
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: Brian Hafliger] #491513
10/09/09 01:03 PM
10/09/09 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,314
The Swamp
MegaDart Offline
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Quote:

I do this alot, charge the customer alot less to do the engine before and after, on same dyno to see the gains and find out how much you had from the start.




That is a great idea, something I've always wanted to do but have not. But, every race motor I have gets put on a dyno before going in my cars.

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: MegaDart] #491514
10/09/09 01:52 PM
10/09/09 01:52 PM
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emarine01 Offline OP
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I have dyno #s from a partnership that didn't quite work out from a few years ago, the dyno #s were 659hp and 588ft lbs, this was with my heads and cam intake & carb in a 416" with steel rods flat tops 0 deck my combo is 414" flat tops and .018 in the hole for the bme rods, we have dropped cam duration from 280 to 260 @.050 last year to keep the rpm down to 7k max with the hope of more torque, engine seems to run the same times after some tuning and tire changes just less rpm,I just had a x block sonic tested and was worse in some spots than the 360 block we are running now @ 4.06 good thig was it was cheep but it does seem ya get what ya pay for in the end, What is the best block to build from for 700hp?

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: emarine01] #491515
10/09/09 01:57 PM
10/09/09 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Brian Hafliger  Offline
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SoCal
I would only use an R block, either R1 if you can find one, or R3. I think there is an R1 on here right now for sale in Tx maybe??

When I do a W5 head, I remove the original seats and replace them because they are prone to moving/falling out!
But I think you have good enough parts (minus the cam maybe) to do what you want, with a little more work.


Brian Hafliger
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: Brian Hafliger] #491516
10/09/09 02:05 PM
10/09/09 02:05 PM
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Posts: 11,701
Portage,michigan
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B3422W5 Offline
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Portage,michigan
Quote:

I would only use an R block, either R1 if you can find one, or R3. I think there is an R1 on here right now for sale in Tx maybe??

When I do a W5 head, I remove the original seats and replace them because they are prone to moving/falling out!
But I think you have good enough parts (minus the cam maybe) to do what you want, with a little more work.





R blocks are fine


That said, i like the X blocks, reason being they are stock up top and will accept anybodies roller lifters, which is a plus,(in the 59 degree and roller cam world) and accesories, etc, are plenty beefy to handle anything a 59 degree head can dish out, and are lighter than an R3

Like any block, they should be sonic checked, mine has plenty of meat for another overbore and its currently at 4.100. Like any Mopar blocks, the thickness varies, hence why they all should be checked.I know guys running them at 4.125 even, and making good power with safe bore thickness.

Last edited by B3422W5; 10/09/09 02:06 PM.

69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: B3422W5] #491517
10/09/09 02:14 PM
10/09/09 02:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,418
Mcallen, TX
SB449VALIANT Offline
pro stock
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Mcallen, TX
Quote:

Quote:

I would only use an R block, either R1 if you can find one, or R3. I think there is an R1 on here right now for sale in Tx maybe??

When I do a W5 head, I remove the original seats and replace them because they are prone to moving/falling out!
But I think you have good enough parts (minus the cam maybe) to do what you want, with a little more work.





R blocks are fine


That said, i like the X blocks, reason being they are stock up top and will accept anybodies roller lifters, which is a plus,(in the 59 degree and roller cam world) and accesories, etc, are plenty beefy to handle anything a 59 degree head can dish out, and are lighter than an R3

Like any block, they should be sonic checked, mine has plenty of meat for another overbore and its currently at 4.100. Like any Mopar blocks, the thickness varies, hence why they all should be checked.I know guys running them at 4.125 even, and making good power with safe bore thickness.




Same thing here., my x block bore is 4.100 and it can take the 4.125 safetly....i guess..lol

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: Brian Hafliger] #491518
10/09/09 02:16 PM
10/09/09 02:16 PM
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emarine01 Offline OP
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I am not up to par on small block , blocks, is there a thread with a good description of the blocks , years or current availability and how much machine work ya gota do to make some power with one? We had to put a ton of time in money in the 360 block between line hone, steel caps,decking, bushed lifters, oiling mod, ect...

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: emarine01] #491519
10/09/09 02:17 PM
10/09/09 02:17 PM
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Posts: 4,084
Indiana
W5Duster436 Offline
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Indiana
Quote:

I am not up to par on small block , blocks, is there a thread with a good description of the blocks , years or current availability and how much machine work ya gota do to make some power with one? We had to put a ton of time in money in the 360 block between line hone, steel caps,decking, bushed lifters, oiling mod, ect...




Ryan has an excellent FAQ about all this but currently his domain/website is unavailable.


'70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone)
'71 Dodge D100
'70 Dodge W100
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: W5Duster436] #491520
10/09/09 03:43 PM
10/09/09 03:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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RyanJ  Offline
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State College, PA
Quote:

Quote:

I am not up to par on small block , blocks, is there a thread with a good description of the blocks , years or current availability and how much machine work ya gota do to make some power with one? We had to put a ton of time in money in the 360 block between line hone, steel caps,decking, bushed lifters, oiling mod, ect...




Ryan has an excellent FAQ about all this but currently his domain/website is unavailable.




Yeah not sure why it's not back up yet... I'll get Dave on that on Monday. It usually does not take this long to come back up....

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: RyanJ] #491521
10/09/09 06:44 PM
10/09/09 06:44 PM
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emarine01 Offline OP
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What kind of sonic #s are you guys seeing with what block and what bore? Mostly interested in major thrust around halfway down the bore, are the race blocks prone to core shift also , are all there blocks hit or miss on a thick one?

Re: 700 HP small block [Re: emarine01] #491522
10/09/09 06:56 PM
10/09/09 06:56 PM
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SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Brian Hafliger  Offline
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SoCal
So far the older R1 blocks I've tested have been very good. Normally I see a min. of .210 on thrust and .280 non thrust at 4.060 bore.

R3's I've seen all over the place. Can't even remember that last time I saw an X block...I think maybe back in the 80's?? LOL!


Brian Hafliger
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: emarine01] #491523
10/09/09 09:45 PM
10/09/09 09:45 PM
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Posts: 182
usa
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demon454 Offline
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I right now am building a R3 59' block to make 700 plus.It's a 454 stroker B1BA MC's flowing in the 360 range at 700 lift,W8 420 intake cut to fit 12.5 to 13.0 comp.1150 Dale Cubic carb,Haven't decided if i should dyno or not.

5535757-Image002.jpg (173 downloads)
Last edited by duster451; 10/09/09 09:49 PM.
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: demon454] #491524
10/09/09 10:06 PM
10/09/09 10:06 PM
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Posts: 226
lino lakes,MN
onebaddakota Offline
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lino lakes,MN
I'm surprised no one has considered the new SB hemi. I know just from the head flow, the potential is there. They are now making kits up to 440 cubes for the 6.1L block. I believe Arrington even sells a pump gas, hyd roller crate motor that puts out 640HP


10.56 at 125.6, with a 1.43 60 ft. E85, Hyd. Roller 410 magnum,full exhaust, 3500 race weight.
Re: 700 HP small block [Re: onebaddakota] #491525
10/09/09 10:23 PM
10/09/09 10:23 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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To the best of my understanding the valve train (hydraulic rollers and non-adjustable rockers)is the big hold up for high RPMs from a new hemi, the only replacement for RPM is cubic inches, that being said what is the theoretical max displacement from a 5.7 or 6.1 ? If 440 is the most cubes and 7000 is the most RPM it just might not be possible yet...

I do have to agree though they definately have the head flow


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



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