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Re: normal distributor advance [Re: Dougsmopars] #477937
09/24/09 10:25 PM
09/24/09 10:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 101
South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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South Carolina
What I am trying to unsuccessfully say is this: I start at 15 degrees at idle, rev the engine up to 3000 RPM, and find the dial on the light to show 52 degrees. I adjust the distributor to bring the timing down to 35. Actually I haven't checked where the idle is after adjustment to 35. But, I need to make it clear, the engine will not start once I set the timing at 35. The engine sounds as if it is struggling against itself. I turn the distributor back to 15 degrees at idle and it immediately fires up. It also sounds good at idle.

I think the key here is the fact that I have a hotter cam in the engine than earlier this year. I will plan to recurve the distributor as it has been recommended. That makes the most sense to all of it.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: warpspeed] #477938
09/25/09 12:45 AM
09/25/09 12:45 AM
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W. Sacto CA. USA
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phantomx Offline
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It sounds like your dist has 37 degrees of mechanical advance built into it, not good. Lets say your car likes the 15 degrees to idle, and runs perfect with 38 degrees total. Your dist should have 23 of mechanical advance. With your current setup at 35 total, your base would be 17 degrees after TDC, no wonder it won't start. Fix your current dist, or buy a new one.
Travis..


70 GTX project, orig 440-4, 4 spd, track pack, FC7, stripper/street racer special.
Re: normal distributor advance [Re: warpspeed] #477939
09/25/09 07:27 AM
09/25/09 07:27 AM
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Posts: 531
Virginia
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JimG Offline
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Virginia
Quote:

Now one other thing, the MP distributor has a vaccum advance in its pod. I tried to back it off ccw as Prof. Erhenburg says to do. It didn't change a thing. I backed it off three full turns without a change. Not sure that is normal.




What the allen screw does is change the amount of vacuum required to pull in the vac adv pot - it does not change the total amount of vacuum advance. You must shorten the stroke of the arm to do that.

If you crank the screw all the way in one direction (I forget which way it works) it might take 12-14" of vacuum to fully advance the mechanism. Screw it all the way in the other direction, it might take 5" to pull it in. It might pull in at idle (a bad thing). That's why it's best to know exactly how much vacuum is required for the diaphragm to begin to move, and how much for it to be pulled all the way in. Sometimes, I'll tee in a vacuum gauge to the vacuum advance, put the gauge in the car, and ride around to make sure it's pulling in under the right circumstances.

Leave the vacuum advance alone (and disconnected) until you get the initial timing and the mechanical advance right. Do those things first, vac advance last.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: JimG] #477940
09/25/09 09:24 AM
09/25/09 09:24 AM
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South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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Thank you very very much JimG. I am going to take the recurve information from Rapid Robert and your instructions and fix this problem. I have been riding around with this one distributor for several years. I now realize that my advance is way off. No wonder there has been a lack of power. I will take one of the distributors in house and fix it.

Do you need to have the slots in the arm Mig welded, torch welded, or TIG welded? I don't want to mess the part up by warping it if the Mig weld is too much heat.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: phantomx] #477941
09/25/09 09:27 AM
09/25/09 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 101
South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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Yep, yep, yep. You have hit the nail on the head. I am afraid I will run into the same problem with another "new" distributor though. I now have two distributors with the same problem. I hope I can fix what I have. Thank you.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: warpspeed] #477942
09/25/09 11:42 AM
09/25/09 11:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 807
Toronto, Canada
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dirtybee Offline
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use a mig and just do one zap at a time and let it cool between zaps if you are worried about warping. the metal is pretty thick though so i don't think you have to worry.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: warpspeed] #477943
09/25/09 11:48 AM
09/25/09 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Yep, yep, yep. You have hit the nail on the head. I am afraid I will run into the same problem with another "new" distributor though. I now have two distributors with the same problem. I hope I can fix what I have. Thank you.




stock mopar distributors have 30 plus degrees of advance in them so you aren't going to buy one that will just drop in .

IF you buy a NEW MP dist it has an adjustable mechnical advance , 40years too late , also in another thread on this subject a member that chimed in above sells a kit to shorten this without doing any welding to the dist .

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: JimG] #477944
09/25/09 01:40 PM
09/25/09 01:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,968
North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
GTXKen Offline
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North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
Quote:

Quote:

Last question, how do you fix this? Recurve by adding metal to the slots? I belive that is what Rapid Robert is talking about.




Attached is a photo that shows the slots in the process of being modified with JB Weld (not recommended) but you can see the proceedure nevertheless. One slot has been filed to the desired length (see the chart Rapid Robert is sending) and the other slot has been shortened, but not yet filed.

Distributor recurving is one of those basic things you must do when the camshaft is changed to one with sportier valve timing.




Would anyone care to send me or post this here chart you are speaking of?

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: GTXKen] #477945
09/25/09 03:05 PM
09/25/09 03:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
this one


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: normal distributor advance [Re: RapidRobert] #477946
09/25/09 03:06 PM
09/25/09 03:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,857
Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline
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If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: normal distributor advance [Re: dirtybee] #477947
09/25/09 03:23 PM
09/25/09 03:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 101
South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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South Carolina
You guys are great. I have been enlightened to a problem I didn't know existed or would have known was a problem. With the information from dirtybee about the welding, I can fix this problem. Will have to work on it over the weekend and let ya'll know how it went. Rapidrobert sent the chart which indicates this subject has been discussed before. Hope this helps others.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: JohnRR] #477948
09/25/09 03:26 PM
09/25/09 03:26 PM
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South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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Who is this guy? This sounds better than welding, but at least I can get started now with one of the distributors.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: JohnRR] #477949
09/25/09 04:06 PM
09/25/09 04:06 PM
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Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Quote:

... also in another thread on this subject a member that chimed in above sells a kit to shorten this without doing any welding to the dist .



The link to that other thread is https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post5500293

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: RapidRobert] #477950
09/25/09 09:04 PM
09/25/09 09:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 69
Menomonie,wi
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menomoniemopars Offline
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Menomonie,wi
Quote:

this one




the above chart Is this for both slots?or just one side?
thanks!

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/25/09 09:06 PM.
Re: normal distributor advance [Re: menomoniemopars] #477951
09/25/09 09:27 PM
09/25/09 09:27 PM
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Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline
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each slot. They need to be the same size as there are 2 weights. You can swap around different springs to get different curves. One light spring and one heaver spring but the 2 slots have to be the same size

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: menomoniemopars] #477952
09/26/09 08:07 AM
09/26/09 08:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Technically you only have to do one slot because once the cam slot hits the shortened slot it's not going any further .

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: warpspeed] #477953
09/27/09 09:58 AM
09/27/09 09:58 AM
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Posts: 6
Great Lake State
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Great Lake State
I would have that distributer put in a distributer machine and have it set up. It doesn't cost that much to have it set up and you will be able to set it up so its all in by 3000 rpm's. Total mechanical timing should be between 32 and 38 degrees typically. Total mechanical is your initial setting plus your mechanical advance. After the mechanical is set then you can adjust the vacuum advance, if you have and adjustable can.

Re: normal distributor advance [Re: RapidRobert] #477954
10/12/09 01:52 PM
10/12/09 01:52 PM
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Posts: 101
South Carolina
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warpspeed Offline OP
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Finally, guys and gals, I only have one thing to say about my electrical system problems, WOW! I have finally had the time to tear one of my distributors down and "weld and grind" down the slots. This was described as 'recurving' the distributor. My first request for help came with a one sentence response; -check the ground-. Well, I can tell you sincerely- I checked the ground. Everywhere! Couldn't find anything wrong with it. But, the problem persisted. The new MSD Street fire unit I purchased wouldn't work, but everything continued to check out. The timing was showing 52 mechanical at 3,000 RPM. I worked at everything I could remember to FIX the problem(s).

Finally rapid robert instructed me to "recurve" the distributor. Well, I am here to tell you that it helped, but, I was still off. Finally, I removed the MSD, it would only work part of the time anyway. You could tell that it wasn't sending fire along the system. I still can't get the MSD to work at the moment, so the Chrysler ECU stays on for a while. I also removed the adjustable rockers, ouch! I finally had to start over again with the basic engine, still without sucess.

Then, by accident, I touched the ground cable terminal at the battery after an episode when trying to start the engine. OUCH! That sucker was hot! The brain starts working and I think "bingo", so I decided to swap the ground cable from my 70 TA. Hold up there horsey, the car fired right up! I adjusted the timing and took it for a ride. WHAT a difference! The ground cable was a number 2 wire with a very good clear plastic cover that showed nothing wrong with it. BUT, the wiring inside the terminal on the battery was not very well connected. I wasn't able to see the problem because it was under the metal of the terminal connector. There was no corrosion or anything else to indicate a problem. But, resistance must have been up and the amperage was not be able to get through, I guess. Once, the ground wire was replaced, everything started to come into its own (the MSD still won't work). The timing was down (before the recurving) to 45 (from 52) at 3000+. Once recurving, the timing is now at 35 @ 3000. (This a 440) This car has never run this well. The engine doesn't sound like it is missing. It is responsive like my small blocks. Running down the street, I can touch the accelerator and there is an immediate response. Gee, can you say "beautiful"?

Thank you Rapid Robert and the rest of you for your information, encouragement, and etc. Its is great to have a 'HOT' running car. All I can add to this is that if all the wiring and components are properly working and connected, these old systems are easier to diagnose and fix. AND CHECK THE GROUND.

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