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Just got back from the Pocono Raceway (PA) road coarse event. I can't believe the huge difference the XV suspension upgrade made to my cars handling over stock. Car rides nice, no body roll, a real pleasure to drive!! Even in the rain.

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I don't have any stills of the car but my passenger took videos as I was driving. I did see someone with a red Ferrari jacket taking pics.
I installed the complete level 1 kit.

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I bought new Radial T/A's on 15" ralley wheels. I didn't have time to look into 18" wheels. I would have much preferred to run 18'S.

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Level I does not touch the brakes/wheels/tires. Naturally a modern 17/18 just makes it work better.
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Actually this could be sorta neat and informative.....

I'd like to hear Rare TA's comments after he just installs different rims and tires. That would be a neat comparision to see just what the different tires alone do.

Rare TA, please keep us in the loop on your future upgrades.

RareTA, any installation pictures??

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What size are those torsion bars ? Just curious .

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What size are those torsion bars ? Just curious .

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If you look very closely at any of their advertising, they appear to be 1.12 to 1.16 in diameter.

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Just got back from the Pocono Raceway (PA) road coarse event. I can't believe the huge difference the XV suspension upgrade made to my cars handling over stock. Car rides nice, no body roll, a real pleasure to drive!! Even in the rain.

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I thought you had stock suspension. No wonder you had the confidence to go all out in front of me.
XV did a great job b/c I couldn't believe with 15's you were tearing up that wet track so well...So now, is it the suspension or the driver
When you get some lower profile tires for next year your not going to want to trailer your car anymore b/c it's going to be soooo much fun driving it.
Ladies and gentlemen I believe we have our first trailer queen convert
Who else is ready to join the dark side

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Just got back from the Pocono Raceway (PA) road coarse event. I can't believe the huge difference the XV suspension upgrade made to my cars handling over stock. Car rides nice, no body roll, a real pleasure to drive!! Even in the rain.

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Just got back from the Pocono Raceway (PA) road coarse event. I can't believe the huge difference the XV suspension upgrade made to my cars handling over stock. Car rides nice, no body roll, a real pleasure to drive!! Even in the rain.

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The car looks great!!

I'm curious - what was your previous "stock" suspension? Was it still set up as per 1970 factory specs?

My 1971 Satellite Sebring uses 205 lb/inch torsion bars, polygraphite everywhere, fast ratio pitman/idler, 1 1/8" sway bar, KYB's, Rick E's disk brake swap, and a firm feel steering box. I'm considering upgrading to XV, but I'm wondering what kind of improvement I can expect given my current setup.

Thanks.

- Jim

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255/60 up front...does the suspension mods allow you to run such a wide tire up front?

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Fitting 255's on the front is more a function of getting the correct back spacing.

Our Level I Suspension doesn't change anything to affect what size rubber you can run. It's all bolt on, and for a car like John's, that's a rare one, 100% reversible. So down the road if you want to put it back to factory you can.

Here's a Challenger we installed a Level I on and bagged and tagged everything for the owner, so the original pieces stay with the car, but he can use it in ways he never would be able to w/ the stock setup.



Here's another we did that's running 15's on steelies we set up for him:

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IMO, running 15" tires isn't the big detriment a lot of people think it is either. Granted, the choices are thinning out, considerably, but there are still decent gripping, speed rated rubber out there for 15" wheels.

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It's getting real thin. I don't think you can get Dunlop SP 245/50/15 ZR's any more. I think there is some other ZR stuff, but it's pretty pricey.

Seems like your Radial T/A, Firestone Indy, Eagle ST/GT, Qualifer GT... is all that's left

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IMO, running 15" tires isn't the big detriment a lot of people think it is either. Granted, the choices are thinning out, considerably, but there are still decent gripping, speed rated rubber out there for 15" wheels.

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It's getting real thin. I don't think you can get Dunlop SP 245/50/15 ZR's any more. I think there is some other ZR stuff, but it's pretty pricey.

Seems like your Radial T/A, Firestone Indy, Eagle ST/GT, Qualifer GT... is all that's left

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Thought reinforcement pieces had to be welded in to the firewall or something like that...or is that level 2?

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So the level one doesn't include using frame connectors and increasing the rigidity of the chasis in other ways? What if I had frame connectors?

I'm impressed with the testimonials...

great looking car too

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There is a firewall to shock tower brace that is part of the reinforcement package for both level 1 and 2, but it is high enough up to not be an interference item with any size tire.

Speaking of tires, going to 17s is only going to net a small increase in performance compared to a good 15" tire. You'll probably see a better increase with the lighter weight 17" wheels than actual road holding power from 17" rubber. Light weight 15" wheels with sticky rubber is still a good match for a 17.

The biggest increase in driving performance comes from the suspension system. Look at it this way, changing a good 15" set up to a 17" set up is much like changing a 2.5" exhaust to a 3" exhaust. You'll gain some performance, but not a huge amount for the amount of cash outlay of the change. Upgrading your entire suspension system is like swapping out a low compression smog motor for a purpose built performance mill, the difference is huge.

Good gripping, 15" tires are available from Goodyear, Hoosier, Avon, American Racer, Towel City, and Mickey Thompson. Speed ratings are still available in S, T, H, V, and Z depending on vendor and size. Pricing is, unfortunatly, getting up there and is comparable to cheap 17" tires now.

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Tony- are those 15" tires you speak of in the 26-28" height range, or are they like a 245/50, which is 24.6" tall?

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Hey DQHEMI , what front sway bar solution , stage 1 , do you offer for 69 down B body . All I could see on your site is 70 up style with the notched K frame .

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DQ,

what brand and size of tires are you using for the level 1 ? What alignment specs work the best ?

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I'd like to hear about everyones tire and suspension setup and how it responds. I might have gone with the Toyo's if I only knew that they offerd my size.

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60K T/A now that other have stated the diameters of their T-bars, what is your measurement of your T-bars.

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You can buy koni shocks here:
http://www.firmfeel.com/

Strange Engineering also has some nice looking single and double adjustable shocks here:
http://www.strangeengineering.net/newprod/2006/MoparMuscle.html

Lets hear what the suspension guys have to say about T bar life...........

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The spring rate degrades like any spring. But the sagging is more pronouced than the loss of spring rate. sagging in the front is really much of a Mopar issure, as you can just turn the T-bar up and adjust the sag point.

If you want to know the spring rate degradation, you need to put it in the Spring Rate machine. You just need to make fixturing to hold a t-bar and lever arm to a traditional coil spring checker. Sort of like a leaf spring rate machine.

Those strange shocks are just QA1 adjustables. I run those on my Cuda. They're nice

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Who makes them QA1's and who makes the Strange shocks?

What is the better pricing QA1 or Strange double adjustables?

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I haven't seen you post in awhile, have you had you car on the road with the 1.22" TB, and how did you like like it? I am a big believer in macho TB's, anything under 1" is for girls, but a 1.22" on the street makes me pause, so what do you think? MoparKid has a set, but not yet driving, I have a set on the shelf, but you guys go first

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Is it also a good idea to add in a set of Torque Boxes to stiffen up the unibody?

Where are these located exactly? Heard of them and any pictures of them or installations would be helpful

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AutoXcuda - What class are you running in that doesnt allow subframe connectors?

Do more advanced classes allow them?

I had an idea about eliminating the need for the torque box and just use the rear leaf relocation under the frame rail kit? I know it notches out the rear frame and adds a box under there to mount the leaf spring what do you guys think?

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Tony - Are those street tires or racing tires? I never found a good street tire for 15" with 255, 275, 295 or even wider!? If I compair the Radial T/A junk I got now it's a joke compaired to the modern tire my friend rides on his 18" on his 72 RR! This summer he beat most guys with 2x stronger cars (he got a 100% stock 340 and 3.23) on the 1/8mile because he got an uncomparaible grip with those modern tires! With 99% of the 15" street tires out there you just have a very bad grip.

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The Strange shock sure look like the QA1 shock bodies and parts. I'm not 100% sure, but they sure look like QA1 shocks.

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Is it also a good idea to add in a set of Torque Boxes to stiffen up the unibody?

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Here is something to check out Mr Angy's Charger and a few other Mopars are in the members section, click on the picture of the mambers cars for specs:
http://www.lateral-g.net/

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This is more than a good idea. I would say it is mandatory for any torsion bar sizing over 1" for the simple fact that once you start inputting these kind of suspension loads, the unibody starts flexing. Once you turn the body structure into a component of the suspension and it starts flexing, your ability to tune and respond goes out the window. XV does have an awesome video about the benefits of uni-body bracing. Scroll down to the chassis video.http://www.xvmotorsports.com/news/index.cfm

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I especially like the 1971 lowered Road Runner. It says it was lowered 3" from stock height. Is that even possible with a stock K-member and control arms? Won't the suspension just be resting on the rubber stops?

- Jim

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Depends on how you define stock. If you use the stock method of setting ride height via the blade and ball joint difference, then you can get 2" worth of drop at the K frame just by getting the lower control arms to sit parallel to the ground. This still allows a few inches of wheel travel, so it is possible to go even further. However, measuring this same adjustment at the rocker panel or wheel lip opening could easily be construed as a 4-6 inch drop depending on point of reference and factoring in changes to wheel diameter.

BTW, this is the same car 6o4o referred to in his post at the top of page 2. Perhaps he could shed some light on how the drop was measured.

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I'll need to measure my car's ride height again. I had it lowered a little bit too far and the control arm was against the stops. I didn't think I had it lowered very much, although I didn't perform a precise measurement.

DQHemi: So when will XV offer an independent rear?

- Jim

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DQHemi: So when will XV offer an independent rear?
- Jim

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Maybe we'll let the cat out of the bag if we sell the bars by themselves. I'll get some real good pics of the bars, they are nicer than any others I've seen out there.

It's funny how everyone always forgets about the rear of the car. Our leaf springs have a much lighter rate than any of the production pieces.

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I'll need to measure my car's ride height again. - Jim

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Do you know how the stock measurement is figured? It has nothing to do with rocker panel or wheel opening height. It is measure at the bottom of the torsion bar pivot socket at the K frame (spot A) and them at the bottom of the lower ball joint (spot B). You subtract B from A. To have a stock ride height, the results of this measurement should be 1.125 inch difference, meaning the torsion bar socket sits 1 1/8" higher than the lower ball joint.

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On the subject of the rear leafs being much lighter than stock, How does the level 1 rear suspension work at the drag strip ? I really like the idea of a good handling car but would hate to not be able to put my horsepower to the ground at the strip.

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This is great stuff, has there been any updates on what you guys have done to your cars and or the differences you felt with different springs and tires?
CAN'T WAIT.
I am planing on 15" Minilites with I hope some sticky rubber.

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Do you want to stick with 15" for the period look?

Have you considered 16" or 17" the LTIII by Team III Wheels: http://www.team3wheels.com/ac/LT-price.html

Or the PS Engineering rims sold by Tim at www.alltimeracing.com

I got some Optima 15" minilite rims in May. But the backspace is only 4 1/8" I really need that to be 4.5" Especially since they are 9" wide.

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Yes I really like the period look with the fat tires and Minilites.
Any ideas on back spacing for the Challenger with 275/60,15s? 15x8 with 4"B/S sound good?
I had a set of 17" torque thrust with regrets. On the highways with all the truck ruts
I was being pushed from one side of the lane to the other. I also noticed that when in a hard corner I could hear the 15s getting loose, but with the 17s I would all of a sudden loose it completely. Maybe just me and maybe just those tires.
I figure if they could run 15s back in the day and have a blast I am sure i can.
I was looking at M/T street tires in 26x10 and 28x12,15.
Unless that Toyo story on the Cobra site comes true.
I thought Tim was getting out of the sales.
When I was at the spring fling at Willow Springs I couldn't get a clear answer from him about his wheels and or his oil pan that I wanted.
Oh Well.
It's not over yet.
Thanks.

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I have 255/60 up front. 17's look like a good idea. Haven't gotten to the brake set up yet.

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Thanks autoX, the 26x10 tire is very close to a 245/60 and the 28x60 is closest to a 275/60.
Are you saying to run a 275/50 up front?
sounds a bit big, but wow that would be something.
Here is a good story I found in HotRod a little while back, Thats the look and the performance I am talking about. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/scca_trans_am_racing_1966_1972/photo_09.html

Sorry again about your web page.
Thanks again for the input.

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I think this thread is going off topic, but it's great info.
Maybe we should have a section just for corner carving, suspension mods and tires.

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I would like some one to show me exactly how to choose the best set of leaf springs for my car's type of use and whom to buy them from.

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That's always a tough one.

I'd get scale weights on your rear tires to help determine the right arch your desired ride height.

Is there something lacking in the balance of your car now to feel like you need new/different leaf springs?

Might be a good idea to rate your current leaves to know where you are at now. Car doesn't seem that bad. Then you have a better idea of what numbers you want to hit for improvement.

There's a lot of trial and error it seems with leaf springs.

Leaf springs are the linkage and the spring at the same time. The linkage itself bending, twisting laterally, and twisting longitudinally. It's movement is not easy to predict with geometry.

A 3,4-link etc type suspension is all linkage with just a spring attached to it to control the motion. The movement of the solid linkage is easy to predict with geometry.

We've run leaf spring circle track pavement cars for 7 seasons now and have acheived great success and lots of wins. At one time we had over 10 leaf springs in the crash cart to test and tune with!! The chassis builder also has a leaf spring rater (Longacre IRRC). We've run all kinds of leaf combinations too.

Actually this year they allowed 3 link rear ends in our class and we built one. One thing with a leaf spring car, the drivers say they are more forgiving to drive than the 3 link (or four link for that matter too). Our 3 link car got one more win than the second most winning leaf spring car (7 vs 6). But we did get our third championship in the last 4 years.

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Based on my seat of the pants dynomometer and the feedback from others at the track I need more rear spring in the car.

I understand that I must remove the springs and calculate the current rate to determine the new rate, but now how do I order a set of springs with more rate that doesn't change the ride height and from whom??

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