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72 challenger 340 no spark issue! #459938
09/05/09 11:43 AM
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Hi Guys.. My Brother has a 72 Challenger with a 69 340 with electronic ignition, I am having problems with a no spark issue.. when i first turn the key on it sparks once, but then u roll it and there is nothing! turn the key back and it sparks once again. I pulled the dist out of the block and with the key on and dist plugged in to harness i spun the rotor by hand and I had the strongest bluest spark at end of coil wire. Put it back in Block back to the samething one spark then none!. I have been fighting issues upon issues with this car and just when i think i am getting somewhere something else comes up!.I have replaced the ballast, A new dist , new ign box . Can someone please help? or is anyone close to menomonie wi?
thanks!!

5463763-PIC-0255.jpg (75 downloads)
Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/05/09 11:46 AM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459939
09/05/09 11:53 AM
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usually when you get the nothing cranking and tries to fire just as you turn key off the pickup coil in the distributor is faulty.

or your power from the ign switch to ballast is bad in the run or crank position.

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: maxwedge1] #459940
09/05/09 11:59 AM
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well the dist is new? and we also tried the one that came out of it.. same problem..Also one other thing is I checked for voltage at the hotside of ballast its there and when we go to crank it the other side of the ballast has voltage,but now the other side doesn't is that normal? or is it suppose to maintain its voltage too? so where do i start chasing the wiring at then?...tx!

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/05/09 12:30 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459941
09/05/09 03:05 PM
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Try replacing te ballast resistor on the firewall.

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: NortheastMopar] #459942
09/05/09 07:16 PM
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turn the ign sw to "on" & jump the starter either at the starter relay (large batt terminal to brown (solenoid) wire)or down at the starter itself & see if it will start & if so shut it off then see if the ballast has fire when you crank it with the ign switch & if not trace back to the firewall bulkhead connector(both sides) and further upstream to the ign switch until you find the open. EDIT I (re)read your 2nd post & tell me again which sides of the ballast has/has no fire when "on" and in "crank"

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/05/09 07:45 PM.

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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459943
09/05/09 09:59 PM
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I have included a pic of a ballast and which side is which on the car.. and when i go into crank mode the hot side loses juice is this correct? Hot side has the blue wire if that helps or is that my problem cause i am loosing current there when cranking?? I also switched them from top to bottom to see if anything changes and it didn't so i put it back

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/05/09 10:04 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459944
09/05/09 11:38 PM
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Are you running a 5 pin ECU?. If you have a VOM pull off both plastic connectors & ohm out both sides. upper left to lower left should be ~ 5 ohms and upper right to lower right should be ~.5 ohms. lower right and lower left should have something when cranking.


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459945
09/06/09 07:45 AM
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Quote:

I have included a pic of a ballast and which side is which on the car.. and when i go into crank mode the hot side loses juice is this correct? Hot side has the blue wire if that helps or is that my problem cause i am loosing current there when cranking?? I also switched them from top to bottom to see if anything changes and it didn't so i put it back



Tempararily bypass it. Just link the pins together.

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459946
09/06/09 10:45 AM
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Quote:

Are you running a 5 pin ECU?. If you have a VOM pull off both plastic connectors & ohm out both sides. upper left to lower left should be ~ 5 ohms and upper right to lower right should be ~.5 ohms. lower right and lower left should have something when cranking.




I believe its a 4 pin module with a 5 pin harness? so your saying top plug is hot and the bottom is my cranking? I am almost positive the car is the other way around as i showed in the pic. also is that .5 ohms? and 5 ohms on the other?

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459947
09/06/09 04:29 PM
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the listed nominal spec on a 4 terminal ballast is 5 ohms on one side and .5 ohms on the other side. It's confusing because you think the .5 ohms (less resistance = more flow) would be the start side and 5 ohms would be the run side(for the coil) but the .5 ohm side is the "run" side(to the coil)which is a correct amount of resistance & as you know the ballast is bypassed completely to the coil for "start". This leaves the 5 ohm side of the ballast which is used for the extra "start" side circuit for the ECU (5 pin only) not the coil. Both the 4 and 5 pin ECU's get running voltage from the blue (ign 1 run) circuit. The 5 pin ECU has 2 circuits, the 5 ohm for starting and the above (ign 1) for running voltage. A spare I have shows 6 ohms from upper left to lower left and 1.4 ohms from upper right to lower right. Lower left has a blue lead switched 12V(ign 1) to it and it jumps across to the lower right with a short blue loop. Upper right is a heavy brown wire which goes to the coil positive pri terminal. The upper left is a green w a red tracer which goes to the ECU connector. The archives state that this green w red tracer wire is not used w a 4 pin ECU AND a 2 terminal ballast but in the factory shop manuals the green w red tracer wire is used with a 5 pin ECU and a 4 terminal ballast. That's what I have so far.

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/06/09 11:16 PM.

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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459948
09/06/09 08:29 PM
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Ok thanks!So In my picture I have juice on both bottom terminals when key is on.If I am following u correctly i should only have juice on one side of the bottom of the resistor? I am going back tuesday to my brothers I will check that.. also I talked to him tonight and he said its got a 4 pin harness and a 4 pin module.. it was his 72 charger that has the 5 pin one sorry.. but your description of wire colors sounds right from what i have seen on his. will verify tho tuesday

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/06/09 08:33 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459949
09/06/09 11:29 PM
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I reread everything and you have a 4 pin ECU w the (pictured) 4 terminal (dual) ballast, correct? If so (1) see if you have continuity between the upper right and lower right terminals (disconnect both plugs & ohm it if you have a VOM) (2) see that the upper right (brown) terminal has fire when "cranking" & on to the coil positive pri terminal (3) that the "point" of the ECU pentastar connector has fire in "crank".


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459950
09/07/09 09:52 AM
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Yes that is correct From what he told me.. also when u say terminals do u mean the plugs on the harness for continuity? or on the ballast? with key on or in start mode? and am I checking for voltage at the pos primary at the sametime in crank mode? Just ground my neg meter wire while checking it? should i disconnect brown wire on relay so i don't turn motor over while checking this?

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/07/09 09:54 AM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459951
09/07/09 10:05 AM
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Quote:

also when u say terminals do u mean the plugs on the harness for continuity? or on the ballast? with key on or in start mode? and am I checking for voltage at the pos primary at the sametime in crank mode? Just ground my neg meter wire while checking it? should i disconnect brown wire on relay so i don't turn motor over while checking this?


(1) the terminals(right side top/bottom) on the ballast for continuity (pull both plugs off) (2) then fire at the harness plugs in crank mode (3)ground the neg meter wire (4) yes disconnect the brown wire on the relay. #1 see that the coil and ECU are getting fire when cranking w the ign key

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/07/09 12:04 PM.

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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459952
09/07/09 06:57 PM
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ok I am here now and i checked ballast it ohms out. then i checked for fire at hot side and crank side and i have voltage and then i checked for fire at pos side coil in crank and I have fire around 11 volts then i checked at the pentastar and with key on it has around 8 volts go into crank mode and it drops to 3.50 volts or less... so whats going on? where would i be loosing that voltage? where do trace from now? I also looked and it has the 5 pin harness with 4 pin ECU and dual ballast

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/07/09 07:02 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459953
09/07/09 07:23 PM
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jump 12V directly from the battery positive over to the "point" of the pentastar & crank it & see if starts then we'll work upstream on that circuit to find the bad connection. EDIT has it ever ran wired up the way it is right now? Just making sure we have it wired correct.

Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/07/09 07:48 PM.

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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459954
09/07/09 08:37 PM
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I hope your sitting down when u read this ,lol... yes it did run, but we HAVE had other issues with worn timing chain, bad dist, bad dist gear etc and then this now surfaces!,Here is what i found tonight! the pos brown wire was on the wrong side of coil! then i switched that so it was right and checked again same voltage drop!.. then i started to look into the bulk head.And man what I found is just plain unbelievable! someone spliced into the yellow ignition wire on engine side bulkhead and ran that to the ignition on relay and also to the brake light switch below master cylinder! that wire was all melted inside the tape! also the red heavy wire that goes to relay they just ran it thru the damn bulkhead where the connector should have been and spliced into the red on the other side!.So where do i go from here? and do u think this was the problem? How did it even run the other way with the crappy gear ,dist,chain eyt is way beyond me!! I will post a pic later

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459955
09/07/09 09:25 PM
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Yes I am sitting down as that expends the least amt of energy. Well we're making progress. One (system) at a time. www.mymopar.com has factory wiring diagrams, go to mymopar tools/reference in the main menu on the left then click wiring/electrical. It helped me immensely rewiring my 65 Dart. Holler back when you can


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459956
09/07/09 09:38 PM
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Here's a pic of the harness and what I marked how it was

5468957-harness.jpg (86 downloads)
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459957
09/07/09 10:00 PM
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I'd cut the splices & go back to basics & run the ign 1(run) out to the ballast upstream side(the blue loop) and to the point of the pentastar and ign 2(crank)out to the yellow solenoid wire.


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459958
09/08/09 12:36 AM
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could u show or draw me what your talking about?
thanks!

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459959
09/08/09 09:35 AM
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Go onto the "tech archives" at the top of the page then click on "electrical topics" then click on "awesome ecu wiring diagram" & they have a comprehensive schematic that will help you better than I can explain it but the yellow wire on the diagram is wrong, you run that yellow wire from the (st) terminal on the ign sw out to the starter relay and it does not connect to the ballast.


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459960
09/08/09 10:04 AM
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So Is that the same yellow that is all melted coming out of my harness bulkhead then? just make a new one off that connector and reconnect to ign terminal on relay where it was?

Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/09/09 12:37 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459961
09/09/09 12:36 PM
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How do u get the old terminal out of bulkhead? I have a extra harness from a 74 challenger and will just use that yellow wire..thanks!

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459962
09/09/09 02:45 PM
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on the male terminals one end will compress & one wont & you slightly compress the one that will move just slightly then it will come out the back side easily. The female ones look at the rectangular hole and on one side there is a mini groove & use an eyeglass screwdriver to go in & depress the tab then pull it out the back side also.


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459963
09/09/09 07:47 PM
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Thank you! I will give it a shot saturday...

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459964
09/13/09 12:25 PM
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well went back and worked on the car and I got it running but I found some cluster crap in harness, and I have included a pic of what someone did.. can u guys take a look and see what they did is ok? tx! Its running ,but need to tweak rotor placement etc now and then go from there..

5479804-wiring.jpg (41 downloads)
Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/13/09 12:28 PM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459965
09/13/09 12:29 PM
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here is the power acc relay? that the one blue wire goes back to from previous pic.

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459966
09/15/09 07:06 AM
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No opinions on the above pics?

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459967
09/15/09 07:40 AM
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Swap in a known good working distributor. My friends 440 was doing the same exact thing. The Pickup in his reman distributor came loose.

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: 440challenger] #459968
09/15/09 08:48 AM
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Quote:

Swap in a known good working distributor. My friends 440 was doing the same exact thing. The Pickup in his reman distributor came loose.




This is a brand new dist tho..

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459969
09/15/09 08:59 AM
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Quote:

No opinions on the above pics?


I am not able to tell from the pics. I would check out the ECU wiring diagram in the archives and checkout the 71 Challenger wiring diagrams on www.mymopar.com then click on mymopar tools/reference then click on wiring/electrical.


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Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: RapidRobert] #459970
09/16/09 01:05 PM
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I have that same wiring diagram at my brother's ,but its not clear on the wiring for the ign module? it only shows 3 wires? and two of them are going to something i never heard of speed switch? whats that?

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459971
09/21/09 08:07 AM
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well Haven't had a chance to get back to it.. Maybe this week sometime

Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459972
09/23/09 07:22 AM
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We'll I think this Damn thing is useless at this point! it still will not run very well! I have it at 30 initial now just so it will run! Unknown on cam specs etc, And to top it off there is a damn knock somewhere in this motor! its towards the center sounds like? it doesnt go away when u rev it a little, i pulled all but the last two plug wires on drivers side as there a bitc* with headers and it didnt go away. so thinking no rod bearing. could be a main? or what else do u guys think? this motor was suppose to have been all rebuilt too! But after everything i have seen so far with the seller i wouldn't doubt he put used fricken bearings back in!! also when i pulled the drivers side valve cover to make sure both valves were closed At TDC I seen this on a couple of pushrods. this is the worse one u can literally feel a nice deep groove in it! where did that come from? I watched it roll over and it doesn't even come close to hitting way up ther ein the pushrod hole. Also how close should the pushrod be when valve is closed to that hole? cause its very close!
p.s Is there anyone close to me that can come look at this for me? thanks!!

5500269-Pushrod.jpg (29 downloads)
Last edited by menomoniemopars; 09/23/09 10:17 AM.
Re: 72 challenger 340 no spark issue! [Re: menomoniemopars] #459973
09/25/09 08:47 PM
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Is there anyone close by that can stop by and listen to this car to help me decide what I need to do?

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