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oil pressure in a 440
#445787
08/22/09 09:03 AM
08/22/09 09:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
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connecticut
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ok lets see if someone smarter than me can help with this, the engine is a 73 440 cast crank, rebuilt previously 30 over flat tops 0 deck 452 heads roller rockers basically a little better than a stock hp engine...the rest is unknown. I got it from a friend, I regasketted it and a couple caps to theck bearings, hipo pan and windage tray installed:
the isue I have is occasionally if i stop hard the oil light will come on for a few seconds, when hot. I also get a what sounds like a lifter tick occasionally but will go away, like im losing oil pressure. I bust out the snap on mechanical oil pressure gauge and throw it on there.
the cars got 15 40 rotella t in it with a wix filter. cold i have about 70 psi pressure, but the needle on the gauge flutters (this is a new unit, never used so the gauge might flutter) hot ive got 40-50 psi... these are numbers at idle. my question is whats causing the tick and winky light? at 40 psi i would think the light should come on as thats a 3-5 psi switch iirc. today im changing the oil filter and oil, was wondering if a sticky bypass in the pump would cause this or is the engine short for this world? any ideas?
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: johnedod]
#445790
08/22/09 09:09 AM
08/22/09 09:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
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connecticut
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its a baffled pan, it will tick under cruise, its also a recent development, didnt do it last year or earlier this year, and yes there is oil in it...that was the first thing i checked
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: pnypwr]
#445792
08/22/09 09:27 AM
08/22/09 09:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 601
Clintwood VA
johnedod
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mopar
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Posts: 601
Clintwood VA
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Well the tick and the winking light are two indicators of very low pressure so I don't think I'd trust your gauge if it reads 40# at the same time. Has the bottom of the pan been scraped on anything lately that may have bent it against the pick up? I think you're on the right track, you could remove the plug on the oil pump where the bypass valve is and check that out, probably wouldn't hurt to just remove the whole pump and check it out.
Johnedod
68 Road Runner
71 Road Runner
78 Power Wagon
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: johnedod]
#445793
08/22/09 09:33 AM
08/22/09 09:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
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im kinda feeling the pumps bypassing, it will come on usually after a long cruise when its hot, im going to see if i can drive it with the gauge hooked up and watch it... after i change the oil...
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: buildanother]
#445794
08/22/09 10:27 AM
08/22/09 10:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 149
JOPLIN MO 64804
RBDART1
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Posts: 149
JOPLIN MO 64804
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Since the problem is recent I would suspect a faulty pump or a blockage in the pick-up,smashed pan? 1st I would just change the pump,then if still occurs would check pick-up in pan, then lifters,more than likely a new pump will eliminate most of the problem,ran into this a couple times with 440's and a 318 or two,very frustrating,but pumps are cheap,while its apart check oil pump drive gear for wear or breakage and replace if necessary. with the pump off you could blow thru pick up to remove any obstruction, remove oil plug in pan and force with air some kerosene/diesal/solvant down pick up tube to help remove derbis or build up on/in pick up, just make sure to drain it all very well before you add new oil, I have done all this in the past with no problems,as a last resort you could drop the pan and inspect...
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: buildanother]
#445797
08/22/09 11:43 AM
08/22/09 11:43 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
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OP
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Posts: 4,872
connecticut
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im gonna drop the oil and see what it looks like, then start over, im glad big blocks have external pumps, so if it needs to come off its not a huge deal, just not into it...its sunny and id rather drive the vert than work on it!
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#445801
08/22/09 02:00 PM
08/22/09 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
By chance is the pump a HV???
If you are thinking that it will pump out the pan - it ain't gonna happen and especially at the type of drive OP said it is doing it in.
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: MoparforLife]
#445802
08/22/09 03:35 PM
08/22/09 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
OP
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OP
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connecticut
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it is a hv pump...its a 6 quart pan...its hiot enough out time to change the oil and see if anything changes...right after a samich!
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: MoparforLife]
#445803
08/22/09 03:40 PM
08/22/09 03:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
By chance is the pump a HV???
If you are thinking that it will pump out the pan - it ain't gonna happen and especially at the type of drive OP said it is doing it in.
Good point in that its occuring under heavy braking which of course is low RPM.
But an HV pump CAN contribute to oil starvation when other factors are right (low oil pan capacity, poor drainback, excess windage) I have had it happen.
It ain't HELPING the issue thats for sure. Unless absolutely necessary (bearing clearance) I would remove it. Period.
I would also address the other factors.
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: MoparforLife]
#445805
08/22/09 04:02 PM
08/22/09 04:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
This is in a baffled pan so very unlikely even in braking.
Only time that I have seen a HV pump a pan out and it really didn't is in a dirt car wiothout the proper pick up so that the oil was pulled away from the sump from inertia of the turns on the oval. would have happened with any pump. I know that there are many here that 'think' that a HV pump can pump out a pan but it is very unlikely and will have other contributing causes like blocked or in some way restricted oil return - not the pump over pumping. If you thinkk it does that is up to you .
I know it is. I have had it happen in a street 440. Yes I stated other factors (did you even read my post?). In my case I had loose bearings, an HV pump, baffled low capaciity pan, no windage tray, and light oil. If the pan wasn't kept at 1 guart overfill the pan would go dry (under acceleration).
Just becuase something hasn't happened to you doen't make it impossible. 
The HV pump IS contributing to his situation--it HAS to. How MUCH is debatable--not IF. Its job is to pump a higher volume of oil UP into the engine--that means LESS in the pan. They are postive displacement pumps--its what they do!
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#445807
08/22/09 05:23 PM
08/22/09 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
Quote:
This is in a baffled pan so very unlikely even in braking.
Only time that I have seen a HV pump a pan out and it really didn't is in a dirt car wiothout the proper pick up so that the oil was pulled away from the sump from inertia of the turns on the oval. would have happened with any pump. I know that there are many here that 'think' that a HV pump can pump out a pan but it is very unlikely and will have other contributing causes like blocked or in some way restricted oil return - not the pump over pumping. If you thinkk it does that is up to you .
I know it is. I have had it happen in a street 440. Yes I stated other factors (did you even read my post?). In my case I had loose bearings, an HV pump, baffled low capaciity pan, no windage tray, and light oil. If the pan wasn't kept at 1 guart overfill the pan would go dry (under acceleration).
Just becuase something hasn't happened to you doen't make it impossible.
The HV pump IS contributing to his situation--it HAS to. How MUCH is debatable--not IF. Its job is to pump a higher volume of oil UP into the engine--that means LESS in the pan. They are postive displacement pumps--its what they do!
If you reread my post it says "very unlikely".
And your post it doesn't "HAVE TO". The pump may contribute but better find the underlying cause. Seen many times where replacing siomething 'fixes' a problem intially caused something else. I say it again a HV pump on properly built with proper adaquet oil levels engine isn't going to pump out the pan. Been around too many of them in the last 45 years.
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: MoparforLife]
#445808
08/22/09 05:44 PM
08/22/09 05:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is in a baffled pan so very unlikely even in braking.
Only time that I have seen a HV pump a pan out and it really didn't is in a dirt car wiothout the proper pick up so that the oil was pulled away from the sump from inertia of the turns on the oval. would have happened with any pump. I know that there are many here that 'think' that a HV pump can pump out a pan but it is very unlikely and will have other contributing causes like blocked or in some way restricted oil return - not the pump over pumping. If you thinkk it does that is up to you .
I know it is. I have had it happen in a street 440. Yes I stated other factors (did you even read my post?). In my case I had loose bearings, an HV pump, baffled low capaciity pan, no windage tray, and light oil. If the pan wasn't kept at 1 guart overfill the pan would go dry (under acceleration).
Just becuase something hasn't happened to you doen't make it impossible.
The HV pump IS contributing to his situation--it HAS to. How MUCH is debatable--not IF. Its job is to pump a higher volume of oil UP into the engine--that means LESS in the pan. They are postive displacement pumps--its what they do!
If you reread my post it says "very unlikely".
And your post it doesn't "HAVE TO". The pump may contribute but better find the underlying cause. Seen many times where replacing siomething 'fixes' a problem intially caused something else. I say it again a HV pump on properly built with proper adaquet oil levels engine isn't going to pump out the pan. Been around too many of them in the last 45 years.
...and a 'properly built" engine doesn't NEED a HV pump!  
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#445809
08/22/09 11:17 PM
08/22/09 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
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play nice kids...so I dropped the pil, looked clean, should only had 5 or 600 miles on it, changed the filter, parts store guy gave me the wrong one, so I used a ford filter I usually keep around, basically a 51515 wix or ph8a equivilent so it hold a lil more oil, fired it and hot i have 70 psi at idle, gauge is still on it but I didnt get a chance to drive it today. but after adding my 6 qts it shows a lil over on the dipstick, so im figuring that wont hurt if it is in fact pumping the pan dry, I guess I need to pull the valve covers to make sure the returns in the head arent plugged also.
as for why its got a hi vol pump...idk it was on it when I got the engine, like i said I got it from a friend and just regasketed it and took a look inside, it all looked good!
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#445811
08/23/09 01:11 AM
08/23/09 01:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
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My 273 has had an oil leak from the plug since I got it (threads were crossed at some point). It has gotten worse each time I change the oil, now its pretty bad but im not too worried about it since Im changing the engine in the next few weeks (whenever I get my tranny back). Anyway I still cruise with the car, and it does leak ALOT. I have to put a pan under it when I park it.
Anyway, its got some later model dipstick from a 360 or something on it, it reads wrong. So I know to add more oil by watching the oil pressure gauge under hard breaking. I had 50 psi hot, 30 warm, and if I've just gone a distance on the highway at 3000 rpm or so it will ocasionally dip to 20 until it cools back off. Anyway, when its low it will drop alot under hard breaking, once it dropped to 0 so I just put the car in neutral and turned it off. By the time it fired back up it had pressure. It scared me though. Anyway, my guess would simply be low on oil. I keep mine overfilled and it prevents it. I have mechanical lifters though, so I wouldnt hear a lifter tick from lack of oil. Hope this helps.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: pnypwr]
#445816
08/23/09 08:57 PM
08/23/09 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid
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Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
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Regardless of how well you think it worked before, you said it yourself it's a mild combo. So what's the logic behind sticking an HV pump in a mild combo, what's your justification other than trying to see if you can suck your pan dry? 7qts is the min for HV IMO btw. And you're just causing unneccesary risk and eating up power for no reason  .
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Re: oil pressure in a 440
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#445817
08/23/09 10:59 PM
08/23/09 10:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,872
connecticut
pnypwr
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 4,872
connecticut
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I didnt build the motor, I got it this way, looked at the pan no dmage so I doubt the pan to pick up clearance changed much, ive seen this in gm vehicles where the pickups fall off the pump, pulled the covers and drains are clear, doesnt rattle or knock so im not feeling excessive clearances...ill drive it tomorrow and see if its changed with a new filter, suppose the check valve could not be working and causing the pump to bypass...the needle flutter on the gauge was greatly reduced with the new oil change
"Are you gonna bark all day lil doggy? Or are you gonna bite?"
05 ram 2500 ctd
74 gremlin x 360
65 mustang 347
70 coronet R/T 440
03 Mach 1
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