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If you have 440 overheating problems,CAT ,long #442064
08/18/09 03:21 PM
08/18/09 03:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline OP
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62maxwgn  Offline OP
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Blair County,PA
You may want to read this post from http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/ member,it may apply.

As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.

The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine.

Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?

So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :

(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady

So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?

Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum CAT housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.

So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!

Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.

So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!!


So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.


Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.


Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.

Last edited by moparts; 08/19/09 03:06 PM.
Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: 62maxwgn] #442065
08/18/09 03:30 PM
08/18/09 03:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.


No sweat on the length (I have more time than money & I enjoyed reading it) plus I felt your energy & thank you for the heads up. Every part needs to be checked thoroughly, cant take nothing for granted, even brand new.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: 62maxwgn] #442066
08/18/09 03:59 PM
08/18/09 03:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,444
NEW JERSEY
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dynamite Offline
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Well thanks for the info,but,I have that same radient heat coming off the top of the motor..However I am using the stock cast water pump housing that ran that motor for over 150k miles..I have sat in bumper to bumper traffic for over 2 hours and it ran right at 185 dg..great right? It was in the 90's that day..problem is over 3000 rpm the temp just keeps climing..if I go back to slow traffic the temp drops down again..I can drive around town all day with no problem,,,get out on the Interstate I can watch the gauge go up until I gotta stop.Did the same stuff with the t-stats and different water pumps,,lower hoses.Heads off 4 times ....even a different block...std bore....yes it is hot .ck with temp gun..and it's really hot

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: dynamite] #442067
08/18/09 04:06 PM
08/18/09 04:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,315
St. Louis, Mo
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318 Stroker Offline
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Quote:

Well thanks for the info,but,I have that same radient heat coming off the top of the motor..However I am using the stock cast water pump housing that ran that motor for over 150k miles..I have sat in bumper to bumper traffic for over 2 hours and it ran right at 185 dg..great right? It was in the 90's that day..problem is over 3000 rpm the temp just keeps climing..if I go back to slow traffic the temp drops down again..I can drive around town all day with no problem,,,get out on the Interstate I can watch the gauge go up until I gotta stop.Did the same stuff with the t-stats and different water pumps,,lower hoses.Heads off 4 times ....even a different block...std bore....yes it is hot .ck with temp gun..and it's really hot




If you don't have a spring in your lower rad. hose, I'd be willing to bet that's the problem.

My small block had the same issue. I installed a lower rad. hose, and it solved the problem...

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: 62maxwgn] #442068
08/18/09 05:24 PM
08/18/09 05:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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HO LEE CRAP !! I just checked mine and can't believe how small the port is on the lower right side !!! Like ya said - can't fit one finger in there.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: Stanton] #442069
08/18/09 06:10 PM
08/18/09 06:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 461
Detroit Michigan
stinger Offline
mopar
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I'll have to check mine before I finish it,thanks for the heads up.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: Stanton] #442070
08/18/09 06:15 PM
08/18/09 06:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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Quote:

HO LEE CRAP !! I just checked mine and can't believe how small the port is on the lower right side !!! Like ya said - can't fit one finger in there.




theres a joke in there somewhere but wow, whattaya know

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: 62maxwgn] #442071
08/19/09 09:00 AM
08/19/09 09:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 190
Wilmington,NC
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I go fast Offline
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Wilmington,NC
Looks like everything that 440 Source sells needs to be looked at real close before purchasing.Just looked at a housing a friend was about ready to install,no comparison with an original cast iron.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: I go fast] #442072
08/19/09 09:38 AM
08/19/09 09:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,358
Berwyn, IL
challenger70 Offline
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anyone know if the MP aluminum ones are like this as well? I think they are exact copies of the cast iron ones just in aluminum but don't feel like pulling mine off to see.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: I go fast] #442073
08/19/09 09:41 AM
08/19/09 09:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

Just looked at a housing a friend was about ready to install,no comparison with an original cast iron.


that was good timing


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: challenger70] #442074
08/19/09 11:16 AM
08/19/09 11:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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Quote:

anyone know if the MP aluminum ones are like this as well?




That would be "no".

The MP ones are made properly.

And to boot, they're cast and machined in California.


Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: ZIPPY] #442075
08/19/09 11:34 AM
08/19/09 11:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Baltimore/Denver
Quote:

Quote:

anyone know if the MP aluminum ones are like this as well?




That would be "no".

The MP ones are made properly.

And to boot, they're cast and machined in California.






Whew! That's good to know...

This issue ought to be a "sticky" in the Q&A forum for a while.

Last edited by 64Post; 08/19/09 11:35 AM.
Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: 64Post] #442076
08/19/09 11:41 AM
08/19/09 11:41 AM
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Posts: 409
Texas
mprhound Offline
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Does anyone know about the Mancini housing?

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabhealwapu1.html
anyone have one to look at?

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: mprhound] #442077
08/19/09 12:18 PM
08/19/09 12:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Quote:

Does anyone know about the Mancini housing?

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabhealwapu1.html
anyone have one to look at?




That PN doesn't correspond to a 440 Source part, nor a MP part.

Now I'm starting to get a little nervous... Time to dig out my receipts.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: ZIPPY] #442078
08/19/09 12:22 PM
08/19/09 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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firefighter3931 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

anyone know if the MP aluminum ones are like this as well?




That would be "no".

The MP ones are made properly.

And to boot, they're cast and machined in California.






That would be correct....at least the older housings are fine. I spoke with Dwayne yesterday and he has a circa 1985 MP alum housing and looked it over while we were on the phone. Hopefully the QC on the newer housings is just as good....if Rich says they are i'll take his word for it.

The original post was mine made on another board...i was going to copy it here but 62 Max did it for me....thanks.

Hopefully others fighting this overheating issue using chinese knockoff housings will know where to look. There are a few members who will be swapping back to stock housings and Milodon pumps very shortly so we should have some backup reports very soon.

I'll be sure to report the findings here.



Ron

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems.Long [Re: firefighter3931] #442079
08/19/09 12:30 PM
08/19/09 12:30 PM
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Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
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I used one. Once. Didn't like it for fitment issues. I won't use it again... The MP ones are consistently very good... the holes are where they need to be.. they aren't porous...lol.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: If you have 440 overheating problems, [Re: 62maxwgn] #442080
08/19/09 01:58 PM
08/19/09 01:58 PM
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Norwich CT USA
moparts Offline
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I am going to check the housing that I have now. This housing is a year or two old.

Need to pull it off of the motor, only dyno time on it so far, which it did not over heat.

If I remember correctly, when I got the housing and pump, It said CAT on the pump box, not sure on the housing


Tom ,

2011 Ram 3500 C&C Diesel
2009 Challenger R/T
1971 Challenger Conv. 511/4 speed
1970 Challenger R/T 503/727


Re: If you have 440 overheating problems,440 Source,long [Re: moparts] #442081
08/19/09 02:42 PM
08/19/09 02:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Carson City, NV
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Our water pump housings are supplied by CAT. We have sold thousands upon thousands of them over the past 5 years. We've used them time and time again on our dyno test engines and our daily drivers with absolutely no problems.

These same exact housings have also been (and are currently being) sold by Hughes engines, Chenoweth speed and machine, and many other vendors on both ebay and Moparts. Obviously, they haven't been having any of these problems either.

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems,440 Source,long [Re: moparts] #442082
08/19/09 02:50 PM
08/19/09 02:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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Only complaints I've ever heard about the MP housing:

-March says it won't work with their super-fancy accessory bracket system

-The 1/2" NPT hole next to the T-stat hole is sometimes not tapped dead straight down, which bugs a few people. My housing is like that also. This is because the the tap is indexed at 90 degrees to the as-cast surface instead of machining the top of the housing flat and tapping the hole afterward which would be prettier and more expensive, but wouldn't work any better).

-It costs more than a knockoff (if you're on a tight budget, forget the 7lb weight loss and just use an iron one! It's only 7lbs)

Re: If you have 440 overheating problems,440 Source,long *DELETED* [Re: ZIPPY] #442083
08/19/09 02:58 PM
08/19/09 02:58 PM
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North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
GTXKen Offline
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