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Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? #432429
08/09/09 01:19 PM
08/09/09 01:19 PM
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Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
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domingo  Offline OP
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Lima, Peru
Hi!

I have been looking and the Alterktion front end kit and also they new rear suspension kit with triangulated 4 bars and coil overs.

I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.

I was wondering if the front and rear Alterktion suspension and steering will make an old musclecar like an an E body or 68-69 Charger handle real good like a newer car.

Or will handling be just marginally improved over stock?

I would plan on doing some majour unibody stffening, maybe even a full cage, and the front and rear alterktion kit plus some real good brakes and 17" o 18" wheels with some serious tires.

I dont want to spend a ton on suspoension mods, a 500 hp modern drivertain, a 6 speed....and end up having thrown a lot of money on a car that looks cool but handles like a bulldozer.

If that will be the case, Id rather just keep it old school, which is cool as well.....and just get a newer car like a 2010 Camaro, Newer Challenger, or a vette.

I wonder how an old E body with all the tricks would stand against a 2009 Challenger.

Opinions????

Last edited by domingo; 08/09/09 01:22 PM.
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432430
08/09/09 01:24 PM
08/09/09 01:24 PM
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Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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Why not get an E body, etc that has rusty floors and chop them all out and graft in something late model like I built.. Perhaps use a wrecked Charger or something ?

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2682662

Completely the best of both worlds if you ask me.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: OzHemi] #432431
08/09/09 01:30 PM
08/09/09 01:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
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domingo  Offline OP
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Oh yes, you showed me that b4-

Well, first of all, wrecked newer vehicles dont grow on trees down here, and when they get wrecked they usually get built back up. It'd actually be more expensive for me that getting an alterk and a viper drivetrian.

Also, I want to have the viper drivetrian. I dont want to use a new hemi or any of that. And also, I want a manual transmission.

Also having to deal with different wheelbases, track width, etc. I think its a lot more complicated to drop an e bopdy onto a newer frame.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432432
08/09/09 01:35 PM
08/09/09 01:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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I hear you...was just a thought. Sometimes you get lucky on stuff at least (in my case, the width between the sills is the same between the late and early.) the wheelbase is easy to match by just adding some material in.

At least with a factory setup you know everything will be matched to each other component and tested,etc.

Just make up new mounts for the V-10 to the subframe.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432433
08/09/09 01:41 PM
08/09/09 01:41 PM
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Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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So Cal
Quote:

Hi!

I have been looking and the Alterktion front end kit and also they new rear suspension kit with triangulated 4 bars and coil overs.

I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.

I was wondering if the front and rear Alterktion suspension and steering will make an old musclecar like an an E body or 68-69 Charger handle real good like a newer car.

Or will handling be just marginally improved over stock?

I would plan on doing some majour unibody stffening, maybe even a full cage, and the front and rear alterktion kit plus some real good brakes and 17" o 18" wheels with some serious tires.

I dont want to spend a ton on suspoension mods, a 500 hp modern drivertain, a 6 speed....and end up having thrown a lot of money on a car that looks cool but handles like a bulldozer.

If that will be the case, Id rather just keep it old school, which is cool as well.....and just get a newer car like a 2010 Camaro, Newer Challenger, or a vette.

I wonder how an old E body with all the tricks would stand against a 2009 Challenger.

Opinions????




Quote:

I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.




For chassis fitment for a Viper V10 motor with headers, exhausts, oil pan... Something like an alterkion is really the way to go. Probably the only way to go really, beyond the handling aspect of it.

But sure it will handle great with choosing the good shocks, 6 piston caliper option, and some stiff springs.

I don't think the rear link is as big a benefit for your particular situation as the front. But finding the right leaf springs can be expensive. A link rear can be adjusted easier, if you know what you what and why you are adjusting it. Also springs can be swapped easier and cheaper, same for front too. The link rear probably fits your "build" and "theme" also.

Will it handles as good as a stock SRT-8 Challenger? If you can get it to weigh 500 lbs less and get as wide or wider rubber on it, it may be able to generate as good skid pad numbers. It most likey will not be as "refined".

It will not ride as quiet or smooth as the SRT-8. The Challenger as an independent rear that help ride a lot. And it does'nt have a B piller to support the window, nor as tight of body structure, nor an interior made of trash can material .

If you really want to most modern best of all worlds deal IHMO you need to look into a XV level 2 full bore deal.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: OzHemi] #432434
08/09/09 01:42 PM
08/09/09 01:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
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domingo  Offline OP
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Lima, Peru
I hear ya....

Everything can be done yes, but I really dont want to open a can of worms.

I am just asking about the AlterK because its a bolt on deal. It would sure make things easy.

I just want to know if it works real good or not.

If not, guess Id be better off doing what you re telling me.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: autoxcuda] #432435
08/09/09 01:46 PM
08/09/09 01:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo Offline OP
EL Master
domingo  Offline OP
EL Master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
Quote:

Quote:

Hi!

I have been looking and the Alterktion front end kit and also they new rear suspension kit with triangulated 4 bars and coil overs.

I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.

I was wondering if the front and rear Alterktion suspension and steering will make an old musclecar like an an E body or 68-69 Charger handle real good like a newer car.

Or will handling be just marginally improved over stock?

I would plan on doing some majour unibody stffening, maybe even a full cage, and the front and rear alterktion kit plus some real good brakes and 17" o 18" wheels with some serious tires.

I dont want to spend a ton on suspoension mods, a 500 hp modern drivertain, a 6 speed....and end up having thrown a lot of money on a car that looks cool but handles like a bulldozer.

If that will be the case, Id rather just keep it old school, which is cool as well.....and just get a newer car like a 2010 Camaro, Newer Challenger, or a vette.

I wonder how an old E body with all the tricks would stand against a 2009 Challenger.

Opinions????




Quote:

I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.




For chassis fitment for a Viper V10 motor with headers, exhausts, oil pan... Something like an alterkion is really the way to go. Probably the only way to go really, beyond the handling aspect of it.

But sure it will handle great with choosing the good shocks, 6 piston caliper option, and some stiff springs.

I don't think the rear link is as big a benefit for your particular situation as the front. But finding the right leaf springs can be expensive. A link rear can be adjusted easier, if you know what you what and why you are adjusting it. Also springs can be swapped easier and cheaper, same for front too. The link rear probably fits your "build" and "theme" also.

Will it handles as good as a stock SRT-8 Challenger? If you can get it to weigh 500 lbs less and get as wide or wider rubber on it, it may be able to generate as good skid pad numbers. It most likey will not be as "refined".

It will not ride as quiet or smooth as the SRT-8. The Challenger as an independent rear that help ride a lot. And it does'nt have a B piller to support the window, nor as tight of body structure, nor an interior made of trash can material .

If you really want to most modern best of all worlds deal IHMO you need to look into a XV level 2 full bore deal.




Im pretty sure I could make it a lot ligter than a new Challenger. Also, fitting big wheels and tires would not be a problem. I am not afraid to fab and modify at all.

I woudl most certainly get rid of the body flex via mist probably a full cage.

Why XV over Alterk? I know this has been beat to death, but really, I have never heard any solid facts.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432436
08/09/09 01:53 PM
08/09/09 01:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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OzHemi  Offline
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The XV stuff was kinda pricey from memory, but also from memory it was tested and tuned on a chassis suspension 'dyno' so guess you are paying for developement and more of a feel before hand just what it will react like

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: OzHemi] #432437
08/09/09 02:18 PM
08/09/09 02:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
Why would you even post that?

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So Cal
XV uses more modern suspension components as well as copying more modern chassis geometry, i.e. corvette. In this case you are paying for a lot of research and development, not that the others are not, just with the XV it is a step beyond and you are paying for it. Alterktion was never initially made to make a car handle better, it was to made for more room for drag racing setups, XV was made to handle from the beginning.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432438
08/09/09 02:34 PM
08/09/09 02:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Quote:

Im pretty sure I could make it a lot ligter than a new Challenger. Also, fitting big wheels and tires would not be a problem. I am not afraid to fab and modify at all.

I woudl most certainly get rid of the body flex via mist probably a full cage.

Why XV over Alterk? I know this has been beat to death, but really, I have never heard any solid facts.




Well, you said,
Quote:

I wonder how an old E body with all the tricks would stand against a 2009 Challenger.




If you are trying to get that last little bit of refinement, ride, and performance to match or exceed a new Challenger SRT-8... the XV stuff has the all the trick goods. Stuff like aluminum spindles, aluminum upper control arms, aluminum engine cradle, alumiunum lower control arms...

That's going to lower your unsprung weight and total weight.

It's not like the Alterkion stuff is bad for handling. It's really quite good for what it is and costs. But if you want the triple throw down, super trick, exotic stuff I think that's XV. It's a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

Even with a cage the XV radiator support, strut/cowl brace, and inner fender support are going to help. The inner fender support deal should be tied into your cage and the other end of that plate.

Regardless of the suspension, I thought getting the V10 to fit between the E-body firewall and radiator support is a task in itself.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: HealthServices] #432439
08/09/09 02:43 PM
08/09/09 02:43 PM
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Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
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Fresno, CA
Actually the Alterktion was made to improve handling AND header clearance. Bill also did tons of research to get the geometry where he wanted it. I have never driven a car with his suspension, but I have heard great things.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #432440
08/09/09 02:58 PM
08/09/09 02:58 PM
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Sacramento, Ca
Darius Offline
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I don't know about the handling......yet!
I have installed an AlterKtion and the 4 link from Bill at RMS. I have also installes the entire body stiffening kit from XV, all in a 70 GTX.
I have also installed the 5.7 and the w5a580 transmission from a wrecked o7 Charger in this car.
I still have some bodywork, paint,interior stuff to do . By my calculations I think this car will weigh somewhere around 3800 lbs when it is all done.
You can see progress pics on Moparts member project and Survivors forum "70GTX-5.7 Hemi Build" thread
or even better pics at
www.forbbodiesonly.com 1966-1970 Mopars forum "b body stiffening" thread.
This does not answer your question about handling but it may give you something to think about as far as effort is concerned.
Good luck on the project whichever way you decide to go!


Driving modern convenience in classic beauty
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #432441
08/09/09 03:18 PM
08/09/09 03:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
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So Cal
I not too thrilled about the use of pinto/mustang 2 spindles on the alterktion kit as those cars never were designed to handle.

On the plus side just about everything in the aftermarket in the past was design to fit them as well as use the rack and pinion off of one.

Just about anything is an improvement over what was done back then though, as our cars were designed with bias ply tires in mind.

Last edited by HealthServices; 08/09/09 03:40 PM.
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: HealthServices] #432442
08/09/09 03:42 PM
08/09/09 03:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Quote:

I not too thrilled about the use of pinto/mustang 2 spindles on the alterktion kit as those cars never were designed to handle.

On the plus side just about everything in the aftermarket in the past was design to fit them as well as use the rack and pinion off of one.




It's just the spindle not the whole car. You just design around it.

They raced Pintos in like IMSA in the 70's againg Datsun 510's, Gremlins, Alfa's?.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: autoxcuda] #432443
08/09/09 04:18 PM
08/09/09 04:18 PM
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Niles , Ohio
T
therocks Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks  Offline
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Instead of asking people that might know.Call Bill at RMS and ask him.He is a great guy and will tell you what it will and wont do.He designed and built it so I guess he knows better than anyone.Rockyf


Chrysler Firepower
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432444
08/09/09 04:35 PM
08/09/09 04:35 PM
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I think you should have a good look at the XV motorsports website and watch the videos Domingo.

As far as getting a viper engine into an E body, it's been done several times before and I'm sure you could handle it. The problem most often heard about when performing this swap is oil pan vs. center link clearance.

Tav

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: domingo] #432445
08/09/09 04:47 PM
08/09/09 04:47 PM
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Berlin, N.J.
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abodyjoe Offline
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the alter-k and street lynx made my dart handle great.


It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

www.MoparMisfits.com
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: abodyjoe] #432446
08/09/09 05:04 PM
08/09/09 05:04 PM
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Texas, Dallas
G_T Offline
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Call Bill and talk to him.
I'm using his Alterkation, Street Lynx, a Viper engine with 6 spd, 14" Wilwoods with 6/4 piston calipers. etc. etc.
Visit v10mopar.com and my thread at charger.com: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=30342.220


1970 Charger - V10, 6spd, Alterkation, Street Lynx 4 Link, Moser Dana 60, Wilwood 14" disks, Forgeline 18" Wheels (Rear:335's), ISIS Multiplexing Wiring http://www.v10mopar.com 2012 Charger SRT8
Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #432447
08/09/09 05:16 PM
08/09/09 05:16 PM
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the house on the left.
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cogen80 Offline
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Quote:

Actually the Alterktion was made to improve handling AND header clearance.




where did you get that from? it was built to handle and with the weight savings and header clearance along with how well it works, its found its way to the drag strip.


Quote:

I not too thrilled about the use of pinto/mustang 2 spindles on the alterktion kit as those cars never were designed to handle.




whats so bad about the spindles? they aren't actually off a ford product. plus they are modified. bill thought about using mopar spindles but there were no real brake options out there at the time for a mopar spindle. and if there was it was very expensive. with the stang spindles it opens the doors to a ton of aftermarket brake options and the front end geometry is correct.

Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle??? [Re: autoxcuda] #432448
08/09/09 05:46 PM
08/09/09 05:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
Why would you even post that?

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

I not too thrilled about the use of pinto/mustang 2 spindles on the alterktion kit as those cars never were designed to handle.

On the plus side just about everything in the aftermarket in the past was design to fit them as well as use the rack and pinion off of one.




It's just the spindle not the whole car. You just design around it.

They raced Pintos in like IMSA in the 70's ageing Datsun 510's, Gremlins, Alfa's?.




That is exactly my point.

Of those cars none are 3800 lbs. all are under 3000 lbs. most have a race weight which was under 2300 lbs.

The other problem is exactly as you stated you have to design the whole car around the spindle itself and from what I remembered the spindle height is not ideally suited for a car made to handle.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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