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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: patrick]
#422156
08/27/09 12:00 PM
08/27/09 12:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,106
Ridgeland Wi
mopars_1
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,106
Ridgeland Wi
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i think you'll be able to get over 300hp pretty easy. my 318 is has a stock bottom end with windage tray, ported 302 heads, small summit cam, headers, rmp intake, holley, shift kit, 2800 tc, and 3.91's and it is a frick BLAST to drive. it's not the best street machine out there but i bet I could hold up well with a stock 340.
1971 Plymouth Duster 340 auto
1937 Plymouth PT50
1969 Dodge Dart Swinger 340 4 speed
2013 Ram laramie 2500 hemi
2008 Harley FLSTSB springer
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: roe]
#422157
08/27/09 01:21 PM
08/27/09 01:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
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Quote:
This question has been asked before but please let me hear some ideas. I have a 71 satellite 4dr, 318/904 w/ 8 1/4 rear with gears probably around 2.76 or so, currently 245/60/15's, power discs with rear drums. Would like to have at least 300 hp if do-able, and as much torque as possible in a daily driver, pump gas car thats fun to drive. Probably looking at magnum heads b/c from what I can tell they are a great bang for the buck, but give me your thoughts and ideas.
Scenario #1. Engine is opened up and bores are in good shape, etc... and engine does not need to be completely rebuilt/machined etc... What would you do. Hone, re-ring, magnum heads, mill heads for compression, if so how much, headers, 4 barrel carb, dual plane intake? All ideas welcome.
Scenario #2. Engine needs to be completely reworked. Which pistons (brand, cast, forged,etc...), heads, intake, etc...
Again any ideas would be greatly appreciated, and cost is an issue so please give me you most economical options.
Thanks
roe
Hey Roe,
How about a 360 from a 72-84 car, truck, van ect.
A simple 360 LA with an RPM intake and cam will
make 300 HP easy. You could put on RPM heads and
get over 400 easy with headers and Holley carb.
The 2.76 gears will do just fine if you put a
1800-2200 converter in it. That combo will make
enough TQ starting at 1500 rpm to fry the tires
off.
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: roe]
#422158
08/27/09 03:22 PM
08/27/09 03:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,120
MassHole Central
rtman
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,120
MassHole Central
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"...and cost is an issue so please give me you most economical options." Good luck, Roe. The only "weakness" of the 318 is with factory slugs you can't get any compression....you're more or less "stuck" with 8:1 and no quench which hurts power and to rebuild one with good slugs you can build a 360 just as cheap. Go with a quick ramp cam like a Comp XE to trap more cylinder pressure and keep the duration in the 216-224 @ .050 range....you can mill the heads but it doesn't help your quench 'cause it doesn't do anything for the poor piston to deck of the slugs. By the time you port and mill the heads and put in new valves you're going to have ~$700 or more into what are still 318 heads.....the heads to use are the late 80's heart shaped chamber heads if you're going to do a swap.....also if you have the $$$$  you might consider getting a set of closed chamber Edelbrock RPM's for $1100, that way if you go to a 360 or something later you have them to grow into. Saves about 45 pounds too. If money is tight, your best bang for the buck mod on a stock 318 is small dual plane 4bbl, 600 carb, & dual exhaust. With a 340 cam, it should run as well as 90% of the stock 340's did back in the day.
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: rtman]
#422159
08/27/09 03:52 PM
08/27/09 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
"...and cost is an issue so please give me you most economical options."
Good luck, Roe. The only "weakness" of the 318 is with factory slugs you can't get any compression....you're more or less "stuck" with 8:1 and no quench which hurts power and to rebuild one with good slugs you can build a 360 just as cheap.
My stock slug 318 with magnum heads and thin head gaskets calculates out to an even 9:1. quench is a non ideal .083", but it makes good power
Quote:
Go with a quick ramp cam like a Comp XE to trap more cylinder pressure and keep the duration in the 216-224 @ .050 range....you can mill the heads but it doesn't help your quench 'cause it doesn't do anything for the poor piston to deck of the slugs.
Quote:
yes, find the fastest rate cam you can with the most .050 and .2" duration for the given seat duration. 216-224@.050 is too much for a stock pistoned 318 with highway gears in a heavy car. look more for 208-212 duration on the intake lobe.
if you're talking about basically buying a flat tappet short block and some magnum heads, I'd seriously look into just picking up a good running long block 318 magnum, swap the intake and valve springs, and get the cam reground. regrinding my roller cam was $150, and you'll pay ~$30 round trip shipping. that's about the price of a GOOD (comp XE or lunati voodoo) flat tappet cam/lifter package, and you'll still have to buy conversion pushrods.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#422160
08/27/09 03:55 PM
08/27/09 03:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Hey Roe,
How about a 360 from a 72-84 car, truck, van ect.
A simple 360 LA with an RPM intake and cam will
make 300 HP easy. You could put on RPM heads and
get over 400 easy with headers and Holley carb.
The 2.76 gears will do just fine if you put a
1800-2200 converter in it. That combo will make
enough TQ starting at 1500 rpm to fry the tires
off.
I've had both in my 3900 lb M body. so far I prefer the mag head/roller cam 318 over the flat tappet stock long block 360. the teen makes about the same power with better drivability, and so far better gas mileage, and I just started tuning with a WB 02, it's currently pig rich on power and idle.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: rtman]
#422162
08/27/09 07:30 PM
08/27/09 07:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
roe
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
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Hey thanks a lot to everyone for offering their ideas. It seems that the same member here might also have a 360 to offer me, so I'll wait and see which one I pick up. If it ends up being the 318 then I will be looking at the suggestions that are already posted. If its the 360, then I'll probably (make that definately) be back with more questions.
I dont want to keep hopping back and forth from 318 to 360 with questions, so I will ask a few more when the block and heads are in my hands, and take it from there. And it will likely be a new thread titled with the motor that I pick up.
1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: patrick]
#422163
08/27/09 08:01 PM
08/27/09 08:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
roe
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
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Patrick and rtman, you guys are mentioning quench numbers. How is quench determined? A combination of heads and pistons? What quench numbers are best with a set of magnum heads?
1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: roe]
#422164
08/28/09 09:04 AM
08/28/09 09:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Patrick and rtman, you guys are mentioning quench numbers. How is quench determined? A combination of heads and pistons? What quench numbers are best with a set of magnum heads?
quench is the distance from the flat part of the combustion chamber to the top of the piston. for a close chambered head (302, magnum, edelbrock, indy), it's just the amount the piston is below deck plus the head gasket thickness.
for an open chambered head, it's the amount the piston is below deck plus the head gasket thickness plus the depth of the chamber (which as cast or depending on how much milling was done can vary from near zero to .1"+)
Quench helps improve detonation resistance by adding turbulence in the combustion chamber, providing for better fuel distribution. This allows you to run more compression with a lower grade of gas. .035" is about the minimum you want to avoid contact due to thermal expansion or the piston rocking in the bore, much beyond .060" and it has no real effect. some guys here with 360's and a comp XE268 sized cam need to run 93 octane with open chambered heads and no quench and compression in the 9.5-10.0 range, while others with similar cams with magnum heads and tight quench are in the 10.5-10.8 range for compression and can run on 89 octane.
I recommend if you don't have an engine yet, get one with a factory roller cam and start with that. that's an 85-up 318 or 89 and up 360. the roller lifters can be reused, the cam reground, it'll make more power than a similar duration flat tappet cam, and you don't have to worry about the cam going flat due to the lack of zinc in modern oils
Last edited by patrick; 08/28/09 09:08 AM.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: patrick]
#422165
08/28/09 09:02 PM
08/28/09 09:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
roe
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
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Ok, that explanation helps out a lot. It seems that the roller motor is the one that most recommend. And I know that you can run a flat tappet cam in a roller block, what stops you from running an LA block with a roller cam? Can it be done?
1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: goldmember]
#422167
08/28/09 09:51 PM
08/28/09 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
roe
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
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I would have preferred a magnum, or a roller block, but right now, the flat tappet will do me fine, I think. Im not looking to build anything special, just a nice runner. A magnum headed LA with a little get up will do me ok, but I do understand what you're saying. Its not going in one ear and out the other. Buck for buck, the magnum would be the best route, but right now, the bucks lead me this direction.
1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: roe]
#422169
08/29/09 11:54 AM
08/29/09 11:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Ok, that explanation helps out a lot. It seems that the roller motor is the one that most recommend. And I know that you can run a flat tappet cam in a roller block, what stops you from running an LA block with a roller cam? Can it be done?
you can, if you pony up $500 for retrofit roller lifters.
OEM roller lifters are ~$120/set, used can be reused. roller blocks have taller lifter bores, and 3 bosses in the valley for the lifter retention parts, so they won't retrofit to an older block
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Update- 318 combos Please
[Re: etek]
#422170
08/29/09 01:40 PM
08/29/09 01:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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did a quick look on gainesville's craigslist: http://ocala.craigslist.org/pts/1323125548.htmlthis guy has a magnum motor for sale complete...
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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