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your EGR cleaning technique? #368916
07/07/09 10:02 AM
07/07/09 10:02 AM
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360view Offline OP
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I am interested in any suggestions or tales of successful EGR cleaning without taking everything apart and reaming.

I need to clean the EGR passages of a
1995 Magnum 5.9v8 on a Ram.

Several years ago I made an attempt at cleaning the EGR on this vehicle by taking loose the thick rubber hose on the
"exhaust back-pressure sensing port"
between the actual EGR valve and its companion EGR modulating valve,
adding about a 6 foot long extension to this hose with one end still attached to the back-pressure nipple on the EGR valve, and then I elevated the open hose end by attaching it high on the hood,
then pouring Regane Fuel Injector cleaner into the hose and letting gravity force it down into the EGR system while the engine was idling.

I am not sure how much good this did, but it seemed to help a little.
Looking back I am of the opinion that it might have let most of the Regane flow down through the steel tube to the exhaust manifold, and probably not too much Regane went through the EGR passages in the intake manifold.

I now have two more tools I did not have before:
an Actron ScanTool OBD-I with the Chrysler cartridge that can set the idle rpm much higher,
and a hand operated vacuum pump that can apply some vacuum to the EGR pintle diaphram to open it.

One other thing I now have experience with is the official $7 spray can Chrysler Combustion Chamber Conditioner that puts out the brown foam. I have been thinking that might be a better EGR cleaner if I can feed it into the system at the right place.

Chrysler CCC would also seem to be a safe chemical to use, as I am assuming it will not attack the bellypan gasket, like some cleaners might.

I am a bit worried that if I try cleaning out the EGR passages from the
inlet/exhaust/pressurized side,
I run the risk that big pieces of carbon may break off and plug the system passages before getting to the two EGR outlet/vacuum discharge holes just below the throttle blades. Visible carbon deposits are already hanging off these outlet holes.

Why do I feel the EGR passages need cleaning?

Well, when the engine is at low rpms on the highway, as I apply more throttle the rpms begin to 'surge' a bit.

I am presently thinking this is due to EGR flow that is too low, which makes the factory set ignition timing too far advanced for a situation where EGR is not there as expected by the PCM computer.
My Scantool says that ignition timing is about
40 degrees btdc when the surging is occurring,
at RPMs around 1600 and
manifold vacuum about 10 to 12 inches mercury.

Could other problems cause this rpm surge instead of EGR?
Worn timing chain?
Worn distributor bushing?

Besides complete disassembling and reaming out,
have you found a way to flush clean EGR passageways?

Thanks in advance for tips.

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: 360view] #368917
07/08/09 07:15 AM
07/08/09 07:15 AM
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360view Offline OP
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btt

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: 360view] #368918
07/08/09 09:12 AM
07/08/09 09:12 AM
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Not2farfromNashville, TN
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Rug_Trucker Offline
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Mopar combusion chamber cleaner, or Seafoam? Just throwing out an idea......


"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: Rug_Trucker] #368919
07/08/09 09:53 AM
07/08/09 09:53 AM

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CLEAN them!!!! I usually PLUGGED 'em!!!

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: 360view] #368920
07/08/09 10:25 AM
07/08/09 10:25 AM
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IMGTX Offline
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Have you looked into the Throttle bores for oil leaking into the manifold through the belly pan yet?

When I hear surging on these engine that is the first place I look.

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? #368921
07/08/09 10:26 AM
07/08/09 10:26 AM
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RodStRace Offline
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Okay, this is offered with the usual disclaimer of it's how I did it and if you hurt yourself, don't come back after me!

First, you are smart to be concerned with any quick cleaning causing chunks to go into the engine. I've seen it happen. No major damage, but stuff that needed to be fixed.

Now, the passages are almost always rough walled, twisted and the diameter varies. In other words, they are not easy to clean. any method except the last one will leave some stuff behind, and you want to make sure it is not going to fall off on the first drive.

The first method is cleaning fluids. This works only mildly and is only useful if the passage is clear and you are just keeping the deposits from building. This can be done without removing stuff at both ends, since it's not going to be getting big chunks loose. Make sure you don't allow a lot of fluid into the engine.

Second is to remove the valve and anything in the way of the other end of the passage. Fluids again, along with any tools, brushes, coat hangers or speedo cables will fit into the passage. You want to catch all stuff that gets dislodged so it doesn't go into the engine. Compressed air is important here. Blow back toward the valve!

Third is the second, taken to a higher level with the cleaning bit on the end of the speedo cable.
Here's the tool (warning! flash and sound!)
http://www.califautotech.com/snake-bit.swf
This will work in a lot of cases, but expect the tool to be expendable, and they are not cheap!

Last method. I caution you on this, since it does require flame. Have a helper and fire extinguisher nearby, make darn sure you know what you are doing, and think and plan ahead to avoid bad things. Oaky, for the really plugged passages that are cast into the manifold with all sorts of twists, this method provides great results. It gets them really clean. First, remove everything near each end for access. Also make sure all flammable stuff is moved aside and there is no fuel nearby. Blow compressed air into the area and the intake to remove any fumes. Fire up your oxy/acetylene torch, preferably a small tip. Point it at the EGR end of the passage and get the deposits burning. Now, turn off the acetylene, so only the oxygen is coming out of the torch. This will cause the coal-like deposits to burn like charcoal and clear out the entire passage. It is also dangerous, so make sure you understand what you are doing and what are the possible issues that can happen. You might even want to take the intake manifold off the vehicle before attempting this. Clean carefully after and reassemble.

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: RodStRace] #368922
07/08/09 10:39 AM
07/08/09 10:39 AM
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6PakBee Offline
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Quote:

......Last method. I caution you on this, since it does require flame. Have a helper and fire extinguisher nearby, make darn sure you know what you are doing, and think and plan ahead to avoid bad things. Oaky, for the really plugged passages that are cast into the manifold with all sorts of twists, this method provides great results. It gets them really clean. First, remove everything near each end for access. Also make sure all flammable stuff is moved aside and there is no fuel nearby. Blow compressed air into the area and the intake to remove any fumes. Fire up your oxy/acetylene torch, preferably a small tip. Point it at the EGR end of the passage and get the deposits burning. Now, turn off the acetylene, so only the oxygen is coming out of the torch. This will cause the coal-like deposits to burn like charcoal and clear out the entire passage. It is also dangerous, so make sure you understand what you are doing and what are the possible issues that can happen. You might even want to take the intake manifold off the vehicle before attempting this. Clean carefully after and reassemble.




I've done this to open up plugged exhaust crossovers but only with the manifold removed and only on cast iron manifolds. I'd never try it installed on an engine and I'd be wary of trying it on an aluminum intake. The key to making this work is to have a gas pass through the passage. That way when the carbon starts burning it doesn't flash back on you.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: 6PakBee] #368923
07/08/09 11:19 AM
07/08/09 11:19 AM
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RodStRace Offline
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That's why it's got a ton of cautions!
I've done it only a half dozen times and it did work every time. Even did it on a few aluminum intakes, and while I did go slower and used air some instead of just oxygen, it worked out fine.
This is not for the guy that doesn't have a lot of experience, but some of those passages will not respond to much else.
I will say that if it's your own car and you are not under the gun to get it fixed fast, removing the intake and having it hot tanked is another option, but if you sprayjet an aluminum intake, it stil won't clean the passage, just soften it.

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: RodStRace] #368924
07/10/09 09:12 AM
07/10/09 09:12 AM
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Thanks for all replies and suggestions

Using a oxy-acetylene torch to set the carbon deposits on fire, and then using only the oxygen stream to encourage it to burn on through the passages is interesting, but as other have said, on an aluminum manifold mounted on the engine I think I should be more cautious on the first attempt.
{my mind brings up the image of how the aluminum British ship Sheffield burned when hit by a Exocet missile years ago}

What I did last night on my 1995 Magnum 5.9V8 EGR passages was this:

First I checked for a blown belly pan gasket by taping up the PCV, Breather and Oil Filler Cap openings in the valve covers.
I taped into the oil filter opening one end of about 8 feet of clear plastic tubing and filled the other end of the tubing with about 2 feet of water to make a rough manometer.
My fully warmed up engine showed about 3 inches of positive pressure from the blow-by at idle, with all the taped openings 'pouching out' as well, so no sign of vacuum, like you would get from a blown bellypan gasket, although mine is original factory.
I then took off the air cleaner and stuck a 1 inch wide by 2 inch long mirror down the throttle opening and looked around and found nothing looking bad at the gasket line inside the manifold.

From a Formula 409 household cleaner spray bottle I took the hard but flexible small diameter plastic tube off the suction part inside, and bent this tube into a snake-like "S" shape so that I could guide it into the outlet of the EGR passage deep down in the intake manifold.
I pulled the spray cap off the Chrysler Combustion Chamber Cleaner spraycan and found a length of black rubber tubing that came with a hand held vacuum pump kit to connect the CCCC spraycan outlet tip directly to my makeshift snake tubing running down into the intake manifold. I put about half the contents of the CCCC down into outlet of the EGR this way.
It took three tries before getting the tubing deep enough into the EGR passageway to keep the CCCC foam from backing out the other EGR outlet just under the other throttle bore.

I then let this fluid put in the EGR outlet sit about an hour before starting the engine, while I put the rest of the CCCC spraycan contents into the port on the EGR valve for sensing exhaust backpressure. I used a longer length of black rubber vacuum tubing to reach this small steel pipe nipple near the firewall. Since the EGR valve was closed I figured most of this CCCC foam would go down the steel tube toward the exhaust manifold on the passenger side of the engine compartment. This got to sit about 30 minutes.

I hooked up a hand operated vacuum pump to the bellows on the EGR valve just before starting the engine, but did not apply any vacuum at first.

The engine started up a little hard with the CCCC in the passages, but got going with a few stumbles and then held a pretty reasonable idle. I let it idle about 5 minutes before slowly applying some vacuum with the hand pump to the EGR. When the vacuum level got to 6 inches of Hg the engine stumbled and almost died, but recovered and held a rough idle. With the air cleaner housing off I think I could hear the noise of stuff running through the EGR passageways and hitting the outside aluminum walls of the manifold.

Lots of dark smoke began to come out of the tailpipe, enough that I had to yell
'Sorry' to some neighbors walking past the house.
They smiled and yelled back:
"Looks really bad, do you think you can fix it?"
I yelled back 'Yes'
and they yelled back:
"Have your heard about that new Cash for Clunkers law that just passed?"
LOL

It took about 10 minutes for the smoke to begin go away.

I raised the rpm to 2000 a few times,
and increased the vacuum on the EGR valve bellows to as much as 18 inches Hg.
To my surprise the engine would idle with that much EGR flowing but the engine was really rough and sounded like it was missing every third or fourth beat.

I experimented a bit.
With EGR turned off the engine was using its normal 0.7 gallons per hour at idle, as measured by an Oztrip aftermarket trip computer.
With the EGR flowing with vacuum on the bellows at about 10 inches Hg, the engine needed 1.0 gallons per hour to do a rough idle.

I am fairly confident that this cleaned up the EGR passages.
Certainly some EGR is flowing because of how the engine idle becomes so rough when the vacuum is applied to the EGR valve bellows, and also the old (15 yrs, 200,000 miles) EGR pintle valve & seat must still be operating,
although it is hard to know if it is allowing some small leakage all the time.

I have a brand new Chrysler EGR valve, and may put it on, but I may frist drill and tap a quarter inch diameter pipe fitting hole on this new EGR valve into the outlet side port area before installing it. This extra port would make it really easy to get flush fluid like Chrysler Combustion Chamber Cleaner into the system.... much easier than snaking a tube down the throttle bores to the EGR outlets.

I have been reading about 'Cooled EGR' on many of the new diesels, but also on the revised design Toyota Tundra gasoline 4.6L V8.
During this clean-out I got to thinking about whether cooled EGR would be a good or bad thing on my old engine. It would not be that hard to cool the EGR gases by running pipe up to the radiator area and back. Another simple way would be to make use of the natural cooling in the existing exhaust system, by taping into the exhaust back behind the muffler and running a line forward. The EGR gases would cool going backward and then forward.

While I am fairly confident cooled EGR would reduce NOx,
I am not sure in my mind whether it would improve MPG,
although my current understanding is that more and more EGR flow reduces 'pumping loss' and improves part-throttle engine efficiency ... but only up to the point that all that charge dilution begins causing ignition missfires and very slow burn speeds.
Cooled EGR would not heat up the incoming fresh air charge as much during part-throttle highway cruise, which might allow the partially throttled engine to produce enough added torque that it would climb a little bit steeper highway hill without a downshift.

Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: 360view] #368925
07/10/09 10:46 PM
07/10/09 10:46 PM
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denfireguy Offline
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On my 74 318, I removed the manifold and chiseled out the carbon with drift punches and a screwdriver. After the first layer or two, the stuff was a lot softer. Thought it was caked with anthracite. I tried to disconnect the EGR stuff but an emissions inspector spotted the modification and flunked me so I had to clean it out.
As a firefighter I love and loathe the torch trick. I would have done that myself if I had thought of it but I can see a smoldering garage in my future if I try that.
Craig


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Re: your EGR cleaning technique? [Re: denfireguy] #368926
07/11/09 08:43 AM
07/11/09 08:43 AM
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the suggestion of the 'Snake_Bit'
for cleaning out EGR passages is interesting,
but it also brought up in my mind a cheaper
alternative from work
.... in mining/quarries/grain elevator industry, to splice together rubber conveyor belts, there is a type of splice that uses as a connection pin a 30 to 60 inch long stainless steel cable with crimped on stainless steel end caps. They are about 3/16 or 1/4 inch diameter. A lot of these splices get routinely cut out of conveyor belts and end up in the trash. I am going to keep an eye out for some of those cables to chuck up in a drill and may try them as 'snake-bit' alternatives.







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