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Why do I keep fouling plugs? **UPDATE 7/10/09** #367967
07/06/09 12:12 PM
07/06/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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After all this fun with a snapped rocker arm bolt and bent pushrod (loose rocker arm bolt, I think), I fixed the valvetrain and fired 'er up again. Sounds great, no issues mechanically with the motor (360 Magnum). The fuel, however, is a being a brat.

Some of you know that a couple weeks ago I had carb vacuum problems which left me stalled in the middle of the road, and resulted in a AAA tow and my swapping to an Edelbrock Performer carb for the time being. Since then, I have been having interesting idle issues. For the first few minutes after starting up cold, it would idle really rough and almost die. I would just hold it to 1000RPM until it warmed up, at which point it would idle fine (1000RPM in park or neutral, 850RPM in gear). By cold, we're still talking 85-90 degrees outside, but this happens if it hadn't been started up in a while.

So about a week ago, I got out my trusty vacuum gauge and tachometer, which had both been verified to be correct against another gauge, and set the idle at a basic level. I started from a baseline of 850RPM (in park) and leaned out the engine until I got the highest vacuum reading. This boosted my idle speed a bit, so I brought the idle speed screw down until I got back to 850RPM. I plugged the rest of the vacuum ports, plugged back in my vacuum advance, and she idled like a dream, even though the exhaust still had a gassy aroma to it. I drove it around a bit, then pulled a plug - carbon-fouled. Well, I decided to drive it around a little longer. I did a healthy 2000RPM all around town - maybe a 20 minute adventure - and came back. Still carbon-fouled plugs. No gasoline smell, no wetness, just carbon. This was Monday of last week, but since I had a lot of stuff to do (read: prepare for a vacation this past weekend), I let it sit until yesterday.

The idle issue wasn't a problem before, as when it would warm up, it'd idle just fine. That is, until yesterday. After the car warmed up, it still wouldn't idle. It sounded really rough, and strangely quiet from the tail-pipes. In park or neutral, it was averaging about 850RPM, but would spike 200 RPM or so either way. In gear, it would peak at 500RPM but always try to die unless I gave it gas. If I poked the throttle, nothing would happen. It actually seemed like there was no combustion for a revolution or two after I poked the throttle. However, if I eased on the throttle, I could get the RPM up again. I was thinking vacuum leak, but with the vacuum hovering at about 15hg, I kind of ruled that out. Was I wrong to?

A couple other symptoms I've encountered: I have a fuel filter inline between the fuel pump and the carb. I am getting a bunch of grit into it, and the filter's basically brand new. I need to do something to my tank, but is it possible to get the stuff out, or should I just buy a new tank?

Also, when it starts up cold, the fuel filter (which is clear) shows the fuel as very agitated coming up into the filter. It's almost like it's bubbling to the point of spraying through the filter element. It's not hot, as I'm able to feel the fuel filter itself, so I don't think it's boiling. But it's definitely drawing a LOT of air through. I know I have fuel in the tank (I just put 10 gallons in), so if it's drawing air, I don't know where it's coming from. I don't have the vapor separator line connected to the air cleaner or anywhere, but I don't have it plugged either, is that a problem?

Not sure what my issue is, but at this point, even with a really lean engine at 15hg of vacuum, it's still having idle issues and still fouling plugs. Any advice is appreciated. I'm almost ready to get out the checkbook and place an order for an Innovative LM-1 to REALLY tune this thing, but I'm thinking that this should/could be corrected in a much simpler and cheaper manner. Thanks in advance!

Last edited by sharpie; 07/10/09 01:07 PM.
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367968
07/06/09 12:17 PM
07/06/09 12:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,558
Montana
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FuryUs Offline
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Montana
Unless you've got a pretty decent sized cam in there, your idle speed seems kind of high--you might not even be on the idle circuit. Put a fresh set of plugs in it and go for a cruise with a little more RPM--not full throttle but enough that you know you're not on the idle circuit. THen shut it down and pull the plugs immediately. If they're black, you're too rich on the primary circuit.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: FuryUs] #367969
07/06/09 12:25 PM
07/06/09 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 373
South Western Michigan
gkellycuda Offline
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Do eddy's have a power valve in them? If so, that could be your problem. You have the wrong vacuum rating on it.


1999 Dodge 3/4ton Cummins 24 Valve, 4x4
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: gkellycuda] #367970
07/06/09 12:34 PM
07/06/09 12:34 PM
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Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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Nope. No power valve. That's the reason I went with one while I rebuilt my Holley after it was causing problems..

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367971
07/06/09 12:41 PM
07/06/09 12:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Quote:

Nope. No power valve. That's the reason I went with one while I rebuilt my Holley after it was causing problems..




maybe it's NOT the carb then. Start from scratch. turn the mixture screws all the way in, then back them out 1 full turn. Next unplug your vac advance and get your timing light and vacuum gauge out. Start the car to where it will idle. Turn the mixture screws out until you get the best reading...set you idle where you like it, Then take the car up to 2400rpm and set your advance in full 36-38* should be good. Now bring the idel back down and re-check/re-adjust for best vacuum. Maybe you need a hotter plug. oh and MAKE SURE YOUR FLOAT LEVELS are set.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: gkellycuda] #367972
07/06/09 12:42 PM
07/06/09 12:42 PM

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Quote:

Do eddy's have a power valve in them? If so, that could be your problem. You have the wrong vacuum rating on it.




"""""""eddy's"""""" I HATE THAT WORD, They are Edlebrock's reworked version of the now defunct Carter AFB, that's what they are.

Don't have power VALVES they have METERING ROD's actuated by PISTONS

If you have a "big" cam, the vacuum may be low enough///the piston springs may be strong enough to be bouncing the metering rods up at idle. They are tapered, go into the main jets, and control mixture in the "power" range.

If you look at the top of the carb---go to the """"""Eddy""""" I HATE THAT WORD site and download the manual for the carb. There are two covers you can remove over the metering rod wells, and actually observe whether the pistons/ rods are fully seated at idle.

(on the exploded view, parts 1 and 2 are screws and covers for the pistons)


You may have a vacuum leak, who knows, at the base gasket itself?


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/carbs_access_main.shtml


I believe this is the "carburetor book"

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/pdf/carb_owners_manual.pdf

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) #367973
07/06/09 12:51 PM
07/06/09 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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sharpie  Offline OP
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Oooh good information, thanks guys. My Edelbrock doesn't have adjustable float bowls. I don't think the cam is too big, it's a Hughes 1418ALN:

Camshaft Technical Details

Intake Valve Lift 1.6 .520"
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .544"

Intake Duration at .050" 214°
Exhaust Duration at .050" 218°

Lobe Separation Angle 108°

Sweet Spot RPM 2300 - 6100

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367974
07/06/09 12:57 PM
07/06/09 12:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,920
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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You do have adjustable floats but you have to take the top off the carb to set them. All floats are adjustable in some manner.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: stumpy] #367975
07/06/09 01:01 PM
07/06/09 01:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that little tab on the float.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367976
07/06/09 01:07 PM
07/06/09 01:07 PM
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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If you're pulling anything over 12" Hg then your cam is not too big. Those carbs don't like vacuum below 9". And they don't like excess fuel pressure either; I believe 6 psi max. I tried in vain to tune an AVS on a 7" Hg engine...

You may need more initial timing to start and then a recurve.

Last edited by 64Post; 07/06/09 01:08 PM.
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: 64Post] #367977
07/06/09 01:18 PM
07/06/09 01:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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Oh, I should mention also my fuel pressure gauge, when working correctly, sits nicely at 6psi. When not working correctly (the time that I notice idling issues), it sweeps violently between 6psi and 15psi. I think this may be a problem related to air in the fuel line?

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367978
07/06/09 01:20 PM
07/06/09 01:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Is your tank vented? you could be building up extra pressure. I once raced with a guy that would take his gas cap off then wait a second or two before each round...I asked what are you doing? he said...car likes to build up pressure, this gets it out?????


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) #367979
07/06/09 01:32 PM
07/06/09 01:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,075
rochester,new york
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plumebody Offline
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rochester,new york
Quote:

Quote:

Do eddy's have a power valve in them? If so, that could be your problem. You have the wrong vacuum rating on it.




"""""""eddy's"""""" I HATE THAT WORD, They are Edlebrock's reworked version of the now defunct Carter AFB, that's what they are.

Don't have power VALVES they have METERING ROD's actuated by PISTONS

If you have a "big" cam, the vacuum may be low enough///the piston springs may be strong enough to be bouncing the metering rods up at idle. They are tapered, go into the main jets, and control mixture in the "power" range.

If you look at the top of the carb---go to the """"""Eddy""""" I HATE THAT WORD site and download the manual for the carb. There are two covers you can remove over the metering rod wells, and actually observe whether the pistons/ rods are fully seated at idle.

(on the exploded view, parts 1 and 2 are screws and covers for the pistons)


You may have a vacuum leak, who knows, at the base gasket itself?


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/carbs_access_main.shtml


I believe this is the "carburetor book"

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/pdf/carb_owners_manual.pdf




""""EDDY'S EDDY'S EDDY'S""""""

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: plumebody] #367980
07/06/09 01:41 PM
07/06/09 01:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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""""EDDY'S EDDY'S EDDY'S""""""

How about Caterbrock?


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Coming soon!!!!
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: Mr.Yuck] #367981
07/06/09 01:44 PM
07/06/09 01:44 PM
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Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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sharpie  Offline OP
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Quote:

Is your tank vented? you could be building up extra pressure. I once raced with a guy that would take his gas cap off then wait a second or two before each round...I asked what are you doing? he said...car likes to build up pressure, this gets it out?????




My tank's vented, but I don't know whether the vents are doing their job? I just replaced the rubber lines to the vent (four going into the rear framerail), but I don't know where those go, or whether they're sufficiently venting.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367982
07/06/09 01:52 PM
07/06/09 01:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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I wonder if it is the pressure issue. Especially if it's push 15 at times... You could try a fuel pressure regulator.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: Mr.Yuck] #367983
07/06/09 02:08 PM
07/06/09 02:08 PM
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hi
sharpie Offline OP
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sharpie  Offline OP
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I don't think it's pressure. I think the fuel pressure gauge is going wild because there's air in the line.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367984
07/06/09 02:39 PM
07/06/09 02:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
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Quote:

Oh, I should mention also my fuel pressure gauge, when working correctly, sits nicely at 6psi. When not working correctly (the time that I notice idling issues), it sweeps violently between 6psi and 15psi. I think this may be a problem related to air in the fuel line?




Okay, let's review:

1. When the fuel pressure gauge "is working" (6psi), the car runs well.

2. When the fuel pressure gauge "isn't working" (spiking to 15psi) the car doesn't run well.

3. This is the second carburetor you have tried on this car, the first one having been pulled because fuel was getting by the needle valve & seat for some mysterious reason.

Have I misstated anything?


Down to just a blue car now.
Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: 68HemiB] #367985
07/06/09 02:52 PM
07/06/09 02:52 PM
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sharpie Offline OP
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The only thing not counted was that we think the mysterious reason was actually a vacuum leak in the secondary diaphragm.

I know it sounds like a fuel pressure issue, but how could a mechanical fuel pump possibly be getting that much pressure built up? Similarly, I shouldn't say the needle sweeps up and down the gauge. It looks more like a severe rattle in the range of 6psi to 15psi. It doesn't do a smooth sweep like a speedometer or a tach or anything.

Re: Why do I keep fouling plugs? (idling issue as well) [Re: sharpie] #367986
07/06/09 02:58 PM
07/06/09 02:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
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You went to the trouble of installing a fuel pressure gauge, and are now pretty anxious to ignore or explain away what it's telling you.

If the gauge sees 15psi, so does the carb, whether it is smooth or spiky.

Running without the gas tank cap for a period of time would rule out the possibility of a pressurized gas tank.

That would take one thing off the table.


Down to just a blue car now.
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