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Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363021
07/01/09 03:58 PM
07/01/09 03:58 PM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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I was going to do a cast crank 451 build just to sort out these questions for myself but I never got around to it. I'm pretty sure that if you use lightweight rods and pistons you can get it to balance internally without any heavy metal. That allows you to use the good dampers and flexplates. You can also just add weight at one end if you need to, for instance, use a neutral damper and an offset balanced flexplate.

The journals need to be cut and the counterweights need to be cut down to clear the main webs with either a forged or a cast crank. Depending on what kind of shop capability you have in your local area it might be cheaper to buy a new 451 crank than rework an existing 440 crank. It all just depends on the situation and the size of the wallet in question.

Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: AndyF] #363022
07/01/09 06:00 PM
07/01/09 06:00 PM
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NE Ohio
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71 FJ6 Charger Offline
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'71 383HP FJ6 Charger SE
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363023
07/01/09 06:31 PM
07/01/09 06:31 PM
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Arlington, Texas
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but is true the dampener is diff between 440 and 400 cast cranks ?




There are pictures of the dampeners in question in the tech archive section. Look pretty different to me.




aren't those pics making comparision between forged and cast crank dampeners ?... I'm talking about being both cast cranks.




There's another picture of a 440 balancer in there. Looks different from the cast 400 balancers that I have.

Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: marvo451] #363024
07/01/09 09:18 PM
07/01/09 09:18 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline OP
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Quote:

You would theoretically have to turn the counterweights on any 440 crank to make a low deck 451 as the counterweight diameter is larger than on a 400.




but why ? aren't the block the same size on that area ? if oil pans are same width to both blocks that mean block walls are same width so both cranks fits on same room... OR NOT ?


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363025
07/01/09 10:00 PM
07/01/09 10:00 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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width is the same, but the bottom of the bores are closer to the crank centerline on a B compared to an RB


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
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Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: patrick] #363026
07/02/09 07:31 AM
07/02/09 07:31 AM
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Columbia, CT
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I've done forged that didnt need the diameter reduced but did need a few spots on the webbing clearanced... But with a cast one, no way. I believe it's about .200" to take off. You've been told they are different and 440source had an entire different crank made for the B wedge... so those two seem to hint that it's the truth. If you feel this can't be so, get both cranks and measure them. B and RB look the same. The are NOT the same, but they look it. In regard to Andy's thoughts... you'll save the money on the crank to spend it on pistons and light rods? I don't see the logic there but as he adds, your situation and wallet may be different than mine.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: moper] #363027
07/02/09 12:03 PM
07/02/09 12:03 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline OP
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I know RB and B cranks are diff, but room inside block does look exactly the same so I can't see a reason to reduce diameter on counterweights to fit an RB crank on a B block.

I know maybe could need some angle grinder on counterweights to get some clearence, but Cut the counterweights because diameter ? seems no logic.

Then we can talk about experiences checking here ( yes I asked the same about cast cranks there... on those days I didn't have any crank, I was just asking ):
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,22274.0.html

note NOTHING IS BEING TOLD ABOUT DIAMETER!

sorry the multiple questions and everything, but more info available, less doubts to everyone and wider options to build anything.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363028
07/02/09 12:18 PM
07/02/09 12:18 PM
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Columbia, CT
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My house looks exactly like my brothers. But his is a colonial and mine's a ranch. The deck heights on teh R vs RB are shorter.. That's the distance from the crank centerline to the top of the block on the head surface. So it's the depth (like ANDYF said) that's the issue. You dont have to trust me of any other poster except ANDYF. He has a bunch of very good published articles and I'm sure forgot more than I know. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. I've never been to the Charger site, but on all sites there's a ton of guys who mean really well but might not know all the little idiosyncrasies of these. And many more who say they do and only read and type a lot. I've only built 3 over the years: one with forged factory crank that did not need to have the counterweights cut; one with the 440source RB crank that we did have to cut .200 off; and then one with the 440Source B crank that had a little taper but otherwise dropped in place. If it was available back then I'd have used the 440Source B crank. I'm pretty sure ANDYF has built many more. It's up to you. Try it and see what happens.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: moper] #363029
07/02/09 01:24 PM
07/02/09 01:24 PM
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Valencia, España
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yes I have read andyf website and 451 manifesto, but also I can find several info what says based on experience ( like the charger website by Challenger340 ) diameter doesn't need to be touch...

you see ? opposite information, and both are experienced guys.

So, apparently does look only cons on a 451 build with cast crank is the counterweight density for balancing once is cut ? ( no matter if angle grinded for clearence or diameter cutdown for better fit, whatever is the true )

............

then on a "note appart" I'm thinking on 400 rods unless I find locally 440 rods.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363030
07/02/09 01:49 PM
07/02/09 01:49 PM
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Sk. Canada
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You can either clearance the block or grind the crank. Personally i'd grind the crank.
As far as listening to expierienced guys... I'd listen to Andy F, as I'm sure most here would. Theres lots of homemade websites out there with all kinds of info...

Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: RemCharger] #363031
07/02/09 02:07 PM
07/02/09 02:07 PM
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Not2farfromNashville, TN
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It's been a while. I was thinking of building a lowdeck stroker with a cast crank. IIRC GregZ told me it would take lots of Mallory metal to balance it out.

There is a thread right now on a cast crank slant on www.slantsix.org in theory it should spin up faster etc. Cast is good to 600HP? More than I will ever need!

I am sure there is ways to lighten the cast crank even more?

Go light weight on the rods and pistons?


"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: Rug_Trucker] #363032
07/02/09 02:59 PM
07/02/09 02:59 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline OP
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Quote:

I Cast is good to 600HP? More than I will ever need!

I am sure there is ways to lighten the cast crank even more?

Go light weight on the rods and pistons?




yes, thats why ask about cast crank on stroker ( beside the fact I got for free )... I never have thought on get even closer to 500 HP. In fact I will use stock but ported 452 heads and will keep the 280/474 MP cam ( thats why I choose that cam, to be able to use on both engine assemblies, my actual upgrade project and a future 451 ).


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: RemCharger] #363033
07/02/09 03:01 PM
07/02/09 03:01 PM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline OP
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Quote:

You can either clearance the block or grind the crank. Personally i'd grind the crank.





I can grind both, slightly on both, to remove less metal from crank and some on block to not remove a lot from crank, specially because the balancing deal.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: NachoRT74] #363034
07/02/09 07:20 PM
07/02/09 07:20 PM
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Columbia, CT
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you call that not cutting the crank? 3/8" off every corner with a 4" grinder? Have a good time.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: cast crank on to 451 stroker [Re: moper] #363035
07/02/09 09:16 PM
07/02/09 09:16 PM
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Atco NJ
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Quote:

you call that not cutting the crank? 3/8" off every corner with a 4" grinder? Have a good time.




dave - too bad we dont have a talking to the wall smiley...

I've seen a 3/8" angle cut , i've seen mains cut down, but i never saw one drop in. just my personal experience.

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