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440 six pack - running hot - why #356068
06/23/09 09:16 PM
06/23/09 09:16 PM
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Williamsport, PA
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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My buddy has a 70 Challenger with a 440 six pack and I have a 70 Challenger with a 440 4 bbl. We both had our motors rebuilt and dynoed by the same shop nearly the same time. We have both put on about 1,000 miles on each of our cars and from day one his motor's temp is much hotter than mine. I can hardly hold my hand on the wrench long enough to loosen the bolt to adjust his timing.

I have the heat crossovers blocked off at the valley pan because I have an electronic choke, his are not blocked off because of the choke on the six pack. We both do not have a heat riser.

He has a new 3 core radiator and I have a new 4 core radiator. When I point the temp gun at my radiator versus his radiator they both are very close to the same temp, but his motor is much hotter. We both have 180 or 185 degree thermostat (can't remember which one for sure).

Any ideas?

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356069
06/23/09 09:32 PM
06/23/09 09:32 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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More details needed, shrouds? clutch fans?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Challenger 1] #356070
06/23/09 10:35 PM
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Quote:

More details needed, shrouds? clutch fans?




new reproduction 26" fan shrouds on both cars. Both cars 26" radiators. Clutch fans on both cars however the six pack has a new Mopar Perf. clutch fan which if I remember correctly is a 5 blade fan and I have the origianl 7 blade clutch fan on my car.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356071
06/23/09 10:43 PM
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What waterpump's?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356072
06/23/09 10:45 PM
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either he is developing much more heat (lean, bigger bore, clogged cooling passages), or he isn't shedding as much heat (WP, fan, radiator, shroud).
Take the temp readings in as many places as possible and compare. Lower radiator hose, WP, Heater hoses, etc.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: MNobody] #356073
06/23/09 10:50 PM
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Quote:

What waterpump's?




not 100% sure, but I think we have the same ones new from Mancini Racing. Can't remember what model # or specifics. What information about the water pump would you want to know?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356074
06/23/09 10:54 PM
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what do his/yours plugs look like & he might pull his stat for 1 day. EDIT forgot about timing(his vs yours)MORE EDIT he might block his intake(like yours) & see if that equalizes things & if so then decide how he wants to get the choke to open properly(I'm betting on this last one)

Last edited by RapidRobert; 06/23/09 10:59 PM.

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RodStRace] #356075
06/23/09 10:55 PM
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Quote:

bigger bore




Could you please elaborate on this one?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356076
06/23/09 10:59 PM
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Quote:

what do his/yours plugs look like & he might pull his stat for 1 day. EDIT forgot about timing(his vs yours)




My timing is 13 degrees initial and the six pack is 15 degrees initial timing. We cannot go any higher or they ping on 93 pump gas.

Plugs are fine.

What are you recommending we try with the thermostat?

Last edited by Rob440Magnum; 06/23/09 11:00 PM.
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356077
06/23/09 11:00 PM
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Quote:

What are you recommending we try with the thermostat?


take it out for (1) day


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356078
06/23/09 11:03 PM
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Quote:

he might block his intake(like yours) & see if that equalizes things & if so then decide how he wants to get the choke to open properly(I'm betting on this last one)





Any other six packs out there with no heat riser, stock choke hooked up, and the heat crossovers on the valley pan open with their motors running hot?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356079
06/23/09 11:21 PM
06/23/09 11:21 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

What waterpump's?




not 100% sure, but I think we have the same ones new from Mancini Racing. Can't remember what model # or specifics. What information about the water pump would you want to know?





Some pumps have more fins on the impeller to move more water, i believe AC cars have 7 versus 5 on the non AC cars.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: MNobody] #356080
06/23/09 11:53 PM
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Lots of stuff has been covered here.

First, what are the actual temps you are seeing? What gauges are being used?

Was his engine bored over more than yours?

I don't think the heat riser will make the diffeence you are looking for on his car. I don't think the choke will work a whole lot different blocked, mine is and the intake gets plenty hot once the car warms up. He could just wire it open and live with the poor cold running temper, it doesn't tae that long to warm up anyway.

Is his fan belt tight? Might just be a new belt that was put on at the rebuild time that has loosened up.


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356081
06/24/09 12:00 AM
06/24/09 12:00 AM
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It could be anything, tune stands out to me, as well as various cooling parts, but since nobody has touched on it yet...

Has anybody thrown a block in a hot tank and actually CHECKED for silt etc at the bottom of the block?
I have and have found some blocks packed with hardened debris. I used all sorts of tools to dig it out through the frost plug holes, I was amazed at what was left in some...

If all else fails it *might* be worth checking as a very last resort..? I have a feeling timing and carbs might be the first area to look at though...


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #356082
06/24/09 06:44 AM
06/24/09 06:44 AM
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Quote:

Was his engine bored over more than yours?





both bored the same 30 over


Quote:

I don't think the heat riser will make the diffeence you are looking for on his car. I don't think the choke will work a whole lot different blocked, mine is and the intake gets plenty hot once the car warms up. He could just wire it open and live with the poor cold running temper, it doesn't tae that long to warm up anyway.





Do you have a six pack? With your crossovers blocked does your choke still function properly?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356083
06/24/09 07:17 AM
06/24/09 07:17 AM
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I blocked my heat risers off and my choke seems to function ok. I wasn't even going to use it but hooked it up for a test and it seems to work ok. I was suprised when I could touch the heads, intake and rad after letting it run for 20-25 minutes and various idles while I set the timing and vacuum. I have a 2 core 26" aluminum rad w/ a 160* thermostat. I was worried my gauge wasn't work because it was only on 160 after 20 or so minutes so I put my hand right on the intake, then block.
Ok so what thermostat is he running? what are his actual temps? all things being equal he might be a tad lean. Your 4bbl probably uses/flows more gas then his center carb. I bumped my centers up to 64.

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: MNobody] #356084
06/24/09 09:19 AM
06/24/09 09:19 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What waterpump's?




not 100% sure, but I think we have the same ones new from Mancini Racing. Can't remember what model # or specifics. What information about the water pump would you want to know?





Some pumps have more fins on the impeller to move more water, i believe AC cars have 7 versus 5 on the non AC cars.





Standard pump has 8 blades,A/C has 6,keeps water in radiator longer with slower circulation.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356085
06/24/09 09:20 AM
06/24/09 09:20 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

what do his/yours plugs look like & he might pull his stat for 1 day. EDIT forgot about timing(his vs yours)




My timing is 13 degrees initial and the six pack is 15 degrees initial timing. We cannot go any higher or they ping on 93 pump gas.

Plugs are fine.

What are you recommending we try with the thermostat?




What is his and your TOTAL timing ? I ASSuME the shop that dynoed the engines recurved the dizzy's as needed ?

If the water temps are very close then it's not really running hot . because his crossover is open the intake is hotter on his engine vs. yours , plus the 6pack air cleaner is alot bigger than yours and will trap the heat coming off the engine.

Did you adjust the timing from what the dyno sessions were set at ? if so which way ?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JohnRR] #356086
06/24/09 09:28 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

what do his/yours plugs look like & he might pull his stat for 1 day. EDIT forgot about timing(his vs yours)




My timing is 13 degrees initial and the six pack is 15 degrees initial timing. We cannot go any higher or they ping on 93 pump gas.

Plugs are fine.



What are you recommending we try with the thermostat?




What is his and your TOTAL timing ? I ASSuME the shop that dynoed the engines recurved the dizzy's as needed ?

If the water temps are very close then it's not really running hot . because his crossover is open the intake is hotter on his engine vs. yours , plus the 6pack air cleaner is alot bigger than yours and will trap the heat coming off the engine.

Did you adjust the timing from what the dyno sessions were set at ? if so which way ?



Yes he mentioned any more than 15 degrees initial it will ping, sounds like the dist is not setup right.

I run 18 initial and 34 total and my 440 six pak which runs great and stays cool even on 90 degree days with the AC cranking. I drove it for about a hour last Sun(90 degree day) and then pulled in the driveway and let it idle for another 15 mins and the temp stayed rock steady. BTW all stock cooling system.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Challenger 1] #356087
06/24/09 09:39 AM
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Another question , is your friends car overheating when he drives it ???

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Challenger 1] #356088
06/24/09 09:40 AM
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I didn't even check initial on mine...I have it set at 35* (no vac advance) @ 2200. I might go up some depending. My engine is 10.75:1 I set the carbs for best vacuum at idle (850rpm)
If your vac advance is hooked up and the distrib doesn't have the MP light spring kit it could be advancing under load way up to 50*


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Challenger 1] #356089
06/24/09 09:40 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

what do his/yours plugs look like & he might pull his stat for 1 day. EDIT forgot about timing(his vs yours)




My timing is 13 degrees initial and the six pack is 15 degrees initial timing. We cannot go any higher or they ping on 93 pump gas.

Plugs are fine.



What are you recommending we try with the thermostat?




What is his and your TOTAL timing ? I ASSuME the shop that dynoed the engines recurved the dizzy's as needed ?

If the water temps are very close then it's not really running hot . because his crossover is open the intake is hotter on his engine vs. yours , plus the 6pack air cleaner is alot bigger than yours and will trap the heat coming off the engine.

Did you adjust the timing from what the dyno sessions were set at ? if so which way ?



Yes he mentioned any more than 15 degrees initial it will ping, sounds like the dist is not setup right.

I run 18 initial and 34 total and my 440 six pak which runs great and stays cool even on 90 degree days with the AC cranking. I drove it for about a hour last Sun(90 degree day) and then pulled in the driveway and let it idle for another 15 mins and the temp stayed rock steady. BTW all stock cooling system.




That's what I'm wondering , if it was set up right on the dyno and they backed the timing off to stop the pinging then the TOTAL is not enough which will cause the engine to run hotter .

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JohnRR] #356090
06/24/09 09:44 AM
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Quote:

[

That's what I'm wondering , if it was set up right on the dyno and they backed the timing off to stop the pinging then the TOTAL is not enough which will cause the engine to run hotter .




You mean not enough initial timing right?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Challenger 1] #356091
06/24/09 10:54 AM
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no total , that is ASSuMEing the dyno guys curved the dist and he's not running the std MP or mopar dist with 30 plus degrees of mechanical advance ...

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: 62maxwgn] #356092
06/24/09 02:14 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What waterpump's?




not 100% sure, but I think we have the same ones new from Mancini Racing. Can't remember what model # or specifics. What information about the water pump would you want to know?





Some pumps have more fins on the impeller to move more water, i believe AC cars have 7 versus 5 on the non AC cars.





Standard pump has 8 blades,A/C has 6,keeps water in radiator longer with slower circulation.





Ahh thank's for the correction on that i wasn't sure but i knew they were different.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: MNobody] #356093
06/24/09 04:37 PM
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R U both running the vacuum advance on your distributors?


Fastest 300
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Crizila] #356094
06/24/09 07:02 PM
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Quote:

R U both running the vacuum advance on your distributors?




Yes

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356095
06/24/09 07:06 PM
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Total mechanical timing is around 32-33 on mine and the six pack 34-35.

Vacuum advance takes it up to the high 40's while cruising.

No pinging at all!

We will look at some of the ideas from your posts and let you know what we find. If you think of anything else please post.

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356096
06/24/09 07:08 PM
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wonder if 1 block has thinner cylinder walls

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Mopar-Al] #356097
06/24/09 07:53 PM
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Quote:

wonder if 1 block has thinner cylinder walls




He still hasn't answered if his friends car is ACTUALLY OVERHEATING or if the complaint is the heat coming off the engine ?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356098
06/24/09 08:00 PM
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Rob,.....I have a 440/6 THAT use to run hot in my Daytona, professionaly built by a "known" race shop down south, dyno's at 450 HP, 030 over, KB forged pistons, roller valvetrain 520 lift, 10:1 compression, yada,yada,yada....15 degress initial, almost 40 total by 2500 RPM,...solid factory blade fan, factory shroud,brand new 26" High Effienciency micro tube 5 row radiator fan and shroud properly spaced, plus being a wingcar, has a complete rubber "flap work" of sheilds that boxes in the radiator to the front grille, plus foam seals around the radiator,.....tried everything when I first put this car together, to try and keep it under 250,....It was fustrating, confirmed running tempertures with infrared, and thermocouple probes to calibrated independant equipment in hopes the "rebuilt" factory gauges were wrong,... NOT!..... plus the car puking green stuff everwhere I went! kinda confirmed it! .... tried timing changes, thermostats, no thermostats, fans, spacers, clutch, solids, 5-7 blades, etc, shroud spacing, jetting/fuel enrichment,....you name it,..... running factory HP manifolds the heat riser is removed, the exhaust is not restictive,...Chambered 2 1/2" pipe, exiting thru factory tips, no mufflers ....intake crossover is functional,....after several months playing all the combos, and really no improvements,....kinda stumpled apon this,.....dumped the Prestone green stuff,....Completely flushed the system,...replaced with ZEREX G-05, clear in color, not sticky,...and it's not that DEXCOOL crap that GM's use, that clog/rot your system,....I used the Zerex G-05 with 50/50 water mix, and 8 oz bottle of Redlines waterwetter (avaliable at Autozone),......with no other changes, other than the fluids, the car went from running 220-250, to 190-200 consistently (running a 180 stat) and no more puking green after a run!


PS, the Zerex G-05 is designed as a replacement for cars running the "greenstuff",....says so on the bottle!.....I tried the Zerex first, was worth about 20 degrees off my heat, the waterwetter took another 20 degrees off......I've been running that combo of "juice" for 5 yrs now, no cooling issuses/problems, even in bogged traffic, super hot days, high RPM runs, etc....I do flush, and replinesh the system every year



Mike

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356099
06/24/09 08:20 PM
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Quote:

He still hasn't answered if his friends car is ACTUALLY OVERHEATING or if the complaint is the heat coming off the engine ?





Technically it is not overheating. The needle on his restored rallye gauges runs at the top of the safe zone a little below the line that is located just below the H.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356100
06/24/09 08:27 PM
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A few more other items about our motors.

Mine 1970 440 motor, stock 906 heads no porting, stock intake, comp cams cam a little more aggressive than stock, 4 speed with 4.10 dana rear.

Six pack motor: 1975 440 motor, stock heads (I think 457's) no porting, same cam as mine. Automatic car with 3.91 rear.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356101
06/24/09 08:42 PM
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Quote:

Ok so what thermostat is he running? what are his actual temps? all things being equal he might be a tad lean. Your 4bbl probably uses/flows more gas then his center carb. I bumped my centers up to 64.





180 or 185 degree thermostat. We both have the same.

I will have to check what he has written down but I think his center carb is 64 or 65.

This weekend we will mess around with some of the ideas everyone shared. I cannot remember the different temps we got with my laser temp gun at the diff locations, but we will try that and compare versus my car at the same locations and let everyone know.

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356102
06/24/09 08:46 PM
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Another thought, I vaguely remember reading this somewhere that the Mopar reproduction radiator hoses do not have any metal reinforcements and can sometime constrict or collapse thus not allowing proper flow of coolant to and from the motor.

Does anyone know anything about this? if so how can I check to see if that is the problem?

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356103
06/24/09 09:16 PM
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Two thoughts... ...First, yes I used a spring from another lower hose I had laying around just for insurance...And secondly...I'm wondering if the rallye gauge and the temp sender is in sync with each other...I usually install a known correct temp gauge on the vehicle...Note the correct temp and see where the gauge is running...And I agree with John..The air temp around the engine bay on my 6-bbl always seems hotter than my single 4- bbl big block but the running temps are close...

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356104
06/24/09 09:29 PM
06/24/09 09:29 PM
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Quote:

Another thought, I vaguely remember reading this somewhere that the Mopar reproduction radiator hoses do not have any metal reinforcements and can sometime constrict or collapse thus not allowing proper flow of coolant to and from the motor.


you can stop by a welding shop & ask them for a single piece of what they have for stainless welding rod(so wont rust) & bend it around a broomstick


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356105
06/29/09 06:26 PM
06/29/09 06:26 PM
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Williamsport, PA
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Guys, we have not had a chance to try any of your suggestions yet. It has been raining a lot in PA.

Question:

What is the correct location of the clutch fan inside the fan shroud. If I stand to the side of the car I can see approx. 80% of my fan blades with only 20% inside the shroud. I can see only 30% of the fan blades with 70% inside the shroud on the six pack motor.

Which is correct?

Thanks, Rob

Last edited by Rob440Magnum; 06/29/09 06:32 PM.
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356106
06/29/09 06:32 PM
06/29/09 06:32 PM
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Any thoughts?


I'm not sure on this but I think at least 2/3 in. 20% in for sure is not enough, yes add a spacer when you find out the correct amt


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356107
06/29/09 06:35 PM
06/29/09 06:35 PM
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Any thoughts?


I'm not sure on this but I think at least 2/3 in. 20% in for sure is not enough, yes add a spacer when you find out the correct amt




My car is the one that does not run hot. So do you think mine would run cooler if I made that change or should I just let well enough alone?

I just looked at my buddy's six pack and his is about 2/3rds in so I guess his is correct.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356108
06/29/09 06:42 PM
06/29/09 06:42 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Any thoughts?


I'm not sure on this but I think at least 2/3 in. 20% in for sure is not enough, yes add a spacer when you find out the correct amt








start with getting a 50/50 spacing in the shroud, 75 % in, has the same effect as 75 % out, from what I've found with playing with wingcars, buy placing a sheet of typewriter paper on the grille at idle, and playing with nothing but a handful of spacers with the same car, 50/50 seemed to hold the paper to the grille, where as to far in, or out wouldn't hold the paper to the grille,....unscientific perhaps?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356109
06/29/09 06:48 PM
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Quote:

So do you think mine would run cooler if I made that change or should I just let well enough alone?


I went back & couldn't find what your temp was. You might experiment later as spacers are easy to come by & I'm a firm believer in getting each & every subsystem dead on(they all add up) but for now I wouldn't sweat it until you get his dilemma solved. EDIT Dayclona that is an excellent idea and I am going to experiment w that

Last edited by RapidRobert; 06/29/09 06:51 PM.

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356110
07/19/09 05:02 PM
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Temps comparison done today on both cars:

six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block

my car 4 bbl:
175 degrees - top of radiator
160 degrees - intake manifold

Can't remember the rest of the numbers. I should have written them down but the six pack was much much hotter than mine in every comparison.

When I first popped my hood my radiator temp (4 bbl car) was 165 degrees and then it moved up towards 175 as it set there for a little. Do you think that is because my fan blades are too far out and not 50-50 within the shroud?

The six pack car the fan blades are 50% in and 50% out of the shroud, so that looks to be ok.

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356111
07/19/09 07:02 PM
07/19/09 07:02 PM
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My 440 ran hot at slow speeds/idle/traffic...cooled well when moving. Went to 7 blade clutch fan with shroud,blades close to half in/half out....car idles now at 180 degrees when run hard. Is the heating problem only at slow speeds or idle...if so...the rad is fine if it cools at highway speeds,you need more air through the rad at slow or idle speeds like I did

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356112
07/19/09 10:51 PM
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Quote:

Temps comparison done today on both cars:

six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block

my car 4 bbl:
175 degrees - top of radiator
160 degrees - intake manifold

Can't remember the rest of the numbers. I should have written them down but the six pack was much much hotter than mine in every comparison.

When I first popped my hood my radiator temp (4 bbl car) was 165 degrees and then it moved up towards 175 as it set there for a little. Do you think that is because my fan blades are too far out and not 50-50 within the shroud?

The six pack car the fan blades are 50% in and 50% out of the shroud, so that looks to be ok.

Thanks, Rob




What do you guys think? Is the six pack running too hot? Is there concern based upon those temps?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356113
07/19/09 10:57 PM
07/19/09 10:57 PM
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Quote:

Quote:


six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block
What do you guys think? Is the six pack running too hot? Is there concern based upon those temps?


way too hot. Keep digging, we'll get it figured out


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356114
07/20/09 01:00 AM
07/20/09 01:00 AM
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I can't get mine to go over 180' . It has your basic 3? core brass radiator with a shroud and a 7 blade thermo clutch fan. Running a 50/50 mix of Prestone or such and even in traffic on a hot day (80 to 90) it never moves. Like dad alwyas said, if you can't be good, you should at least be lucky!

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Classof70Chally] #356115
07/20/09 01:54 AM
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More thoughts. On the hot one(the six pack) I'd (1)wire the heat riser open & R&R the intake & block the passage & try it out (2) R&R the clutch fan w a fixed blade one & try it out (3) pull the stat & try it out (4) rejet the center carb 4 sizes up & try it out (5) bump the initial up 5-7.5 degrees & try it out (6) jack up the front end high, take out the stat & rev the eng several times to possibly push an air bubble up & out just like burping a baby(hey it's after midnite here).(7) have a radiator shop check that there are no combustion gasses in the coolant


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356116
07/20/09 03:36 AM
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Quote:

Temps comparison done today on both cars:

six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block

my car 4 bbl:
175 degrees - top of radiator
160 degrees - intake manifold

Can't remember the rest of the numbers. I should have written them down but the six pack was much much hotter than mine in every comparison.

When I first popped my hood my radiator temp (4 bbl car) was 165 degrees and then it moved up towards 175 as it set there for a little. Do you think that is because my fan blades are too far out and not 50-50 within the shroud?

The six pack car the fan blades are 50% in and 50% out of the shroud, so that looks to be ok.

Thanks, Rob





Take your lazer temp gauge and measure the temp of the exhaust manifolds immediately after having cruised the car for 10 to 15 mins. at approx. 55 mph. Do a comparison of the 6 pack vs. the 440 mag. car. I think you'll find the 6 pack is running in a lean mode at cruise and most likely at idle also causing a much higher exhaust temp reading than the 4 bbl. 440. My experience with a stock cammed 6 pack has been to go to # 66 jets on the center carb with a #65 power valve. You'll also have to pull the outboard carbs base lead plugs to get to the carb idle screws at the front of the carb baseplates. I'd probably start at about a 1/2 turn out from a closed position on the outboard carbs. (Be careful trying to adjust these idle screws as they may be stuck and forcing them will break them - you may have to spray some type of solvent like "Let-go" to free them up) This will put you around 2-3 turns out on the center carb idle adjustment screws. You can "Balance" the idle screw adjustments on the outboard carbs by placing your finger tips over the Idle bleed holes with the car idling. (the idle bleed hole are visible when looking down the throat of the carbs forward of the booster venturies (There will be 2 bleed holes at each venturi and you can ID them by looking at them and they look like small brass plugs with holes drilled thru them)) With the engine running at idle, cover both outboard bleed holes with your fingertips on one of the outboard carbs and if you have it adjusted properly there should be no noticable change in the RPM of the engine at idle. If the RPM increases then you are too lean so open up the idle screw a little on the outboard carb you are checking. If the rpm drops then close the screw some. Adjust the outboard carbs only this way, making sure you keep the total idle speed in the 700 to 800 rpm range after each adjustment. (a timing light with a digital tach readout is a great help when doing this). Then do the 2nd outboard carb the same way. Once you have the ouboards adjusted then adjust the center carb to achieve the proper idle speed. This should balance the carbs at idle and stabalize the temp at each exhaust port so you don't have any cylinder running too lean at idle and causing excessive heat. If you are running anything other than a stock cam, then check your engine vacuum at idle and install a power valve that is at least 1/2 the value of the vacuum reading. ie. vacuum reading of 9 in. vacuum then run a 4.5 power valve or even a 4.0. This will get you out of an over rich issue at idle on a hotter than stock cam and eliminate the black smoke, burn your eyes issues from the exhaust on a non-stock cammed sixpack. Also if you have an engine backfire on a sixpack it generally will blow the power valve and you'll run rich at idle and pour black smoke out the exhaust at idle that will burn your eyes. (Jeg's sells a power valve saver for Holley Carbs that keeps this from happening and it's a breeze to install on the center carb). Doing these things should help you with your running hot issues. Also using a Fel Pro #1215 Intake Valley Gasket with the heat crossover blocked will help too. Just wire the choke flap open and about 2 pumps on the acellerator pedal on a cold start up should get it too fire off pretty quick. Once the engine is hot it should start pretty easy.

Anyway I hope this helps you with your issues. Feel free to PM me and I'll get you a phone number to contact me if you need any clarification on this.

Good Luck and Mopar to Ya'


Jeff - a.k.a.- Bogusracer

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bogusracer] #356117
07/20/09 07:10 AM
07/20/09 07:10 AM
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Williamsport, PA
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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One more thought, the six pack cars warms up 3 times as fast as the 4 bbl car. The 4 bbl car has to drive 3 times as far as the six pack car to get to full operating temp.

I don't know if this information means anything to anyone?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356118
07/20/09 07:36 AM
07/20/09 07:36 AM
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Quote:

One more thought, the six pack cars warms up 3 times as fast as the 4 bbl car. The 4 bbl car has to drive 3 times as far as the six pack car to get to full operating temp.

I don't know if this information means anything to anyone?




Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.

Possible Non A/C water pump impellor with eight blades vs. an A/C water pump impellor with 6 blades. Use the A/C one as it moves the water a little slower allowing the radiator to transfer heat better and cool the water more when running vs. a Non A/C water pump.

Or -

Possible difference in compression ratios:

Six Packs had a 10.5 to 1 factory compression ratio (1970 & 71)

440 Magnums had a 10.0 to 1 (67 to 69)
and a 9.7 to 1 in 1970 & 71.

Running todays lower Octane fuel could cause a difference in the running temps with the higher compression ratio engine especially if you have different timing curves on the distributors and different initial timing on the 2 engines. Also be sure the R/S exhaust manifold has the heat control valve fixed to be open all the time. You may have to validate it by disconnecting the exhaust pipe to physically check that it is open. Myself I just cut the flapper valve out of the manifold and leave the rod running through so it looks OEM but has no restriction.

Good Luck

Jeff - aka - bogusracer

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bogusracer] #356119
07/20/09 10:32 AM
07/20/09 10:32 AM
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Sobieski Wi
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Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.



BINGO

Just went thru this with my 71 Bee - Would run 200-210 even on the hwy at cruising speeds this spring

4 core 22" radiator and all componets had worked perfect last spring/summer when i popped in a new 180 degree Mr Gasket high flow thermostat

This spring after a few trips the temps started running a little higher then i liked , 200-210 so i looked at coolant mixture / straight water and water wetter blah blah blah - Was just about to pull the radiator for a flush when i called and found locally a Milodon 160 degree high flow thermostat
(They didnt have the Milodon 180 high flow in stock)

Popped her in and WOW - Yesterday took us 45 minutes to move two blocks for a local 1,200 count car show and not a degree over 160 on my Auto Meter Ultralight Gauge - Flawless on the hwy cruising at 3000/3500 Rpms also for an hour with my 3:91 gears - I would have been screwed if i still had the Mr Gasket in there yesterday

Sometimes its the simple things that are overlooked - That My Gasket Thermostat had one summer on it when it started to go south this spring - I posted under another thread about Mr Gasket a few days ago

My point is like mentioned - Thermostats due fail even when new or slightly used


1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bee1971] #356120
07/20/09 01:52 PM
07/20/09 01:52 PM
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Quote:

Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.



BINGO

Just went thru this with my 71 Bee - Would run 200-210 even on the hwy at cruising speeds this spring

4 core 22" radiator and all componets had worked perfect last spring/summer when i popped in a new 180 degree Mr Gasket high flow thermostat

This spring after a few trips the temps started running a little higher then i liked , 200-210 so i looked at coolant mixture / straight water and water wetter blah blah blah - Was just about to pull the radiator for a flush when i called and found locally a Milodon 160 degree high flow thermostat
(They didnt have the Milodon 180 high flow in stock)

Popped her in and WOW - Yesterday took us 45 minutes to move two blocks for a local 1,200 count car show and not a degree over 160 on my Auto Meter Ultralight Gauge - Flawless on the hwy cruising at 3000/3500 Rpms also for an hour with my 3:91 gears - I would have been screwed if i still had the Mr Gasket in there yesterday

Sometimes its the simple things that are overlooked - That My Gasket Thermostat had one summer on it when it started to go south this spring - I posted under another thread about Mr Gasket a few days ago

My point is like mentioned - Thermostats due fail even when new or slightly used




Just as a followup to the above testimony, you can check the thermostat by putting it in a pan of water and heating it up on the stove to see how much it is opening. Also check the thermostat housing to make sure there is no interference with the functioning of the thermostat when installed, and check the thermostat housing gasket for interference upon installation.

One other trick to do especially if putting together a new motor or a rebuild is to drill a small 1/16 to 1/8 Inch hole through the thermostat to allow air to bypass through when filling the radiator with water/antifreeze. This will allow the block to completely fill with water/antifreeze and not trap air in the block causing a potential overheating issue on run in with a new/rebuilt engine. It will not affect the operation of the thermostat if done correctly.

Good Luck.....

Jeff - aka. Bogusracer

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bogusracer] #356121
07/20/09 07:29 PM
07/20/09 07:29 PM
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Williamsport, PA
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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Here is what we tried tonight. We removed the 180 degree t-stat and ran it without a t-stat. The car ran much cooler. I forgot my laser temp gun so I could not measure the exact temp, however the car's factory temp guage was reading much lower. I could hold my hand near the engine all night without it feeling like my skin was going to melt, so definitely cooler.

What does that tell you guys, bad t-stat?

He bought a new 180 degree t-stat from NAPA today and was going to put that on tomorrow and then see how it runs.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356122
07/20/09 08:19 PM
07/20/09 08:19 PM
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Quote:

so definitely cooler.
What does that tell you guys, bad t-stat?
He bought a new t-stat


(1)thats real good news. (2) yes (3)I'd push it open several times w your fingers to make sure it's not stuck & suspend it in a pot(not touching the bottom)along w a candy thermometer & see if it opens all the way(what the prior stat problem was) and note what temp it starts to open & what temp it's open all the way as you bring it close to a boil & I would drill the 1/16" hole to aid getting the air out. EDIT while you are at it suspend the old stat also & see how it acts

Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/20/09 09:03 PM.

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356123
07/20/09 08:35 PM
07/20/09 08:35 PM
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Quote:

I would drill the 1/16" hole to aid getting the air out.





Where do you drill the hole?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356124
07/20/09 08:44 PM
07/20/09 08:44 PM
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anywhere in the flat part roughly halfway in from the edge, just not so close to the edge that it interferes w the gasket. Set it in the housing and you want it so that it's location lets it flow & doesn't interfere with either the outer gasket or the actual thermostat mechanism in the center


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356125
07/21/09 03:16 AM
07/21/09 03:16 AM
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Quote:

Here is what we tried tonight. We removed the 180 degree t-stat and ran it without a t-stat. The car ran much cooler. I forgot my laser temp gun so I could not measure the exact temp, however the car's factory temp guage was reading much lower. I could hold my hand near the engine all night without it feeling like my skin was going to melt, so definitely cooler.

What does that tell you guys, bad t-stat?

He bought a new 180 degree t-stat from NAPA today and was going to put that on tomorrow and then see how it runs.




Rob,

I agree 100% with Rapid Roberts followup responses, and I appreciate his added input.
You might however want to consider a 160 degree thermosat, just to keep the engine as cool as possible as quickly as possible.

Additionally, just a heads up though concerning the jetting I mentioned on my earlier post. I would still run the test after cruising the car (Once you have the thermostat/excessive heat issue resolved). and make the appropriate jetting mods, since the Six Packs in stock form were jetted lean from the factory and you'll see a definite decrease in exhaust gas temp at cruise by going to the # 66 jets on the center carb, and balancing the idle on all 3 carbs. Throttle response will improve slightly too.


But the choice is yours on that one.

Anyway I hope I've been of some assistance in troubleshooting your problem along with all the other guys valuable input.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Jeff - aka. - Bogusracer

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bogusracer] #356126
07/21/09 07:00 AM
07/21/09 07:00 AM
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Williamsport, PA
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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Quote:

You might however want to consider a 160 degree thermosat, just to keep the engine as cool as possible as quickly as possible.





If we put the 160 t-stat in, the motor will not heat up anymore than about 160 degrees correct?

I've heard you lose power if the motor runs too cool and that it may not be good for the motor long-term if it does not run hot enough. This is a street car not a drag car.

Any follow-up comments on my reply?

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356127
07/21/09 07:38 AM
07/21/09 07:38 AM
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Well, since I'm down here in Texas and daytime temps are 95 to 110 degrees and evening temps in the mid 80's. Even with a 160 degree thermostat my car runs around 175 to 180 when cruising and gets up to around 195 in stop & go traffic. I have a stock Six Pack Challenger R/T with a #956 3 core radiator - 26 in. wide. My car however is 4.10 geared - 4-spd.

Either way I think you'll be O.K. so if you feel more comfortable with a 180 degree thermostat then go that way.

As for it hurting a motor to run 15 to 20 degrees cooler I don't think that would be the case. As for making more power, I've always run a quicker time at the track with the engine at the 150 to 160 degree range vs. the 180 to 195 degree range. I have never done a comparison on a dyno to see what temp range makes the most power.

I'd like to know if anyone has that data.

Good Luck,


Jeff - aka. - Bogusracer

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356128
07/21/09 07:54 AM
07/21/09 07:54 AM
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the boonies
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Quote:

Quote:

You might however want to consider a 160 degree thermosat, just to keep the engine as cool as possible as quickly as possible.





If we put the 160 t-stat in, the motor will not heat up anymore than about 160 degrees correct?

I've heard you lose power if the motor runs too cool and that it may not be good for the motor long-term if it does not run hot enough. This is a street car not a drag car.

Any follow-up comments on my reply?

Thanks, Rob




if you put a 160 in, the thermostat will open and try and maintain a 160 degree temp. but, if your cooling system is weak or your car is way too hot so the cooling sys cant keep up, it wont stay at 160.

imo, 160 is way too cool. 180 is the min for me. you said it ran cooler without a thermo. the 180 may have been bad. I'd try another one

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bogusracer] #356129
07/21/09 08:50 AM
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I would highly suggest a 180 and read the 160 vs 180 stat thread on this page which will put you in a better (informed) position to make your choice.


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356130
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Last night we drilled 1/8" hole in the new 180 stat and installed. When we started adding coolant we noticed crap floating around in the new radiator (less than 1,000 miles on new radiator). So we took off the lower radiator hose and drained the coolant and tried to flush the radiator with a hose. Refilled and took for a ride. The motor ran cooler than it did before we changed the stat but not as cool as when we ran with no stat.

We are going to do the following on Saturday:

1. remove stat again and put some miles on it to try to move any crap that may be in the block or cooling system and hope it ends up in the radiator. Then Sunday, remove radiator and take to a radiator shop and have it professionally flushed.
2. drive the car at a steady speed on the highway for 10-15 mins and compare the exhaust manifold temps to my 440 4 bbl to see if the six pack is running lean. What temp would you consider too hot for the exhaust manifolds that would lead you to beleive a lean center carb?
3. when we turn the car off, make sure the fan does not keep spinning more than 1 or 1 1/4 turns. If so, I am told the clutch is bad on the clutch fan. (any comments on this to confirm how to test)

What are your thoughts while the radiator is off to hook up a wet/dry shop vac to the bottom radiator hose coming out from the motor. Will this accomplish anything?

Any other thoughts or suggestions we should try while we are at it?

Thanks, Rob

Last edited by Rob440Magnum; 07/24/09 08:21 AM.
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356131
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Anyone?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356132
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Quote:

The motor ran cooler than it did before we changed the stat. What are your thoughts while the radiator is off to hook up a wet/dry shop vac


I would go ahead & have the rad flushed & I dont think the shop vac will help you. we're getting there EDIT I'd take off the front carb & bump up the center carb's jets 4 sizes for a test

Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/24/09 10:26 AM.

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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356133
07/25/09 03:08 PM
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Today we removed the stat. Looked in the radiator and there was an orange thing floating around. We were able to extract it and it was an orange rubberized or silicon glob about 1/4" by 1/4".

We ran the car without the stat. On the highway the factory temp gauge was dead center. (leads me to believe center carb not running lean).

In-town driving the factory temp gauge was at 3/4 and at idle the gauge climbed near the top of the safe zone.

It appears that the clutch fan is ok because it seem to stop rotating almost immediately after he turned the car off. Is there any other way to check this?

I could not get a temp reading of his exhaust manifolds because my temp gun stops at 550 degrees and they were hotter than that. The gun registered no temp reading.

We tried placing a piece of paper on the grille, hood closed at idle and it did hold the paper against the grille so it seems like the fan is pulling outside air thru the grille and thru the radiator.

There is a 1/8" to 1/4" gap between the radiator and the fan shroud. The aftermarket radiator just does not line up well with the fan shroud.

Why can't he just run the car without the t-stat?

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356134
07/25/09 04:23 PM
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Today we removed the stat. Looked in the radiator and there was an orange thing floating around. We were able to extract it and it was an orange rubberized or silicon glob about 1/4" by 1/4".


Hate to say it - But there could bee a 100 more of those plugged up inside your radiator core
Permatex copper silicone

First things first - Pull the radiator and bring it to your radiator shop or at least call them and see what they want to do

Original factory radiator ?
Has it ever been re-cored ? Professionally cleaned or boiled ?

Silicone in the radiator is not a good sign


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356135
07/25/09 05:02 PM
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Quote:

Looked in the radiator and there was an orange thing floating around. We ran the car without the stat. On the highway the factory temp gauge was dead center. In-town driving the factory temp gauge was at 3/4 and at idle the gauge climbed near the top of the safe zone.
Any thoughts or recommendations?


The primary jetting is OK. I would have the rad flushed(along w the rest of the system) to get that crap out of there. You do need a stat(at least 180) in there but I'd leave it out for a few days until you get this sorted out. Since the rad is good at speed I am thinking airflow plus you have a good Mancini pump in there. Can you sub in a fixed blade fan for a test and WHERE in the shroud is your fan located? I'm not sure if 1/8-14" gap on the shroud/rad is enough to make a (big)difference but you could duct tape the gaps for the idling in your driveway test but from you partly cleaning the rad & that made a difference I would do that 1st and get a Milodon hi flow 180 stat for when this gets resolved. We're almost there


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bee1971] #356136
07/25/09 05:53 PM
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Quote:

Hate to say it - But there could bee a 100 more of those plugged up inside your radiator core. Permatex copper silicone




How & where did that come from?

Quote:

factory radiator ?
Has it ever been re-cored ? Professionally cleaned or boiled ?




The radiator is a new YEARONE radiator installed when the car was restored and motor rebuilt. Less than 1,000 miles ago.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356137
07/25/09 05:55 PM
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Quote:

I would have the rad flushed(along w the rest of the system) to get that crap out of there.




I know you pull the radiator and take it to a radiator shop, but how do you flush the rest of the system?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356138
07/25/09 05:57 PM
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Quote:

Can you sub in a fixed blade fan for a test and WHERE in the shroud is your fan located?




It's 1/2 in and 1/2 out of the shroud. I'll have to check to see if he has a fixed blade, I know I don't.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356139
07/25/09 07:19 PM
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Did you use a HIGH FLOW robertshaw type thermostat??? Milodon also sells this type of thermostat but my local NAPA did not sell them. Also use more water and less antifrese and the water wetter as mentioned by Dayclona, Try a Milodon or Edelbrock pump (440source sells them too) if you really want to run cool and check your cap for holding pressure.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: THESHAKERPROJECT] #356140
07/25/09 07:40 PM
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Quote:

Did you use a HIGH FLOW robertshaw type thermostat??? Milodon also sells this type of thermostat but my local NAPA did not sell them. Also use more water and less antifrese and the water wetter as mentioned by Dayclona, Try a Milodon or Edelbrock pump (440source sells them too) if you really want to run cool and check your cap for holding pressure.




Bought a 180 stat from NAPA so I guess that is not a high-flow stat. Where do I buy a high-flow stat?

We put Prestone 50-50 mix in, no water added.

How do you check the cap for holding pressure?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356141
07/25/09 07:48 PM
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I didnt realize the radiator was new - Sometimes you go with the flow , no pun intended , then going back to the original posts if you already mentioned

Anyways

How much silicone did you use on the water pump housing gaskets - How much silicone on the actual water pump itself and thermostat housing gasket

It would definetly take alot to break loose to plug up a brand new radiator so with that said
next


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bee1971] #356142
07/26/09 12:29 AM
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Well this is a whole lot of work....but....Yours is not overheating...his is. Swap parts from yours to his. There is no better test than the last line on a diag flow chart...swap with a known good component.
Sorry
Curt


Oh yeah...THAT'S gonna leave a mark!
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Curt] #356143
07/26/09 12:36 AM
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The fan does need to be farther in


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356144
07/26/09 03:55 PM
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Found another piece of reddish-orange silicon glob floating in the top of the radiator approx/ 1/8" by 1/8".

We pulled the radiator today and it goes to the radiator shop tomorrow morning. Is there anything else we should do while the radiator is out of the car?

Is there anything that could be causing a lean condition at idle or at in-town driving besides too small of a jet?

I always thought if you run a car without a t-stat, the motor will never reach normal operating temp which leads me to believe there is still an underlying problem here.

If the center carb is lean, would it be worse at idle or in-town driving?

What about idle mixture screws, could they be too lean?

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356145
07/26/09 05:52 PM
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440-6 actually draws fuel on the idle circut through all three carbs.. A plugged idle passage in any of the six barrels could cause a lean condition...

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #356146
07/26/09 07:48 PM
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As you may recall, I too am having an overheating problem with my 383. No one has said anything about the post entered by DAYCLONA on June 24 about removing the Prestone antifreeze and substituting with ZEREX G-05. Seems as though he's done everything to eliminate the problem and then the G-05 solved it. Could it be that easy?
Anyone got any thoughts on this?


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356147
07/26/09 08:16 PM
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Quote:

As you may recall, I too am having an overheating problem with my 383. No one has said anything about the post entered by DAYCLONA on June 24 about removing the Prestone antifreeze and substituting with ZEREX G-05. Seems as though he's done everything to eliminate the problem and then the G-05 solved it. Could it be that easy?
Anyone got any thoughts on this?








James, my daytona had hot running situations, only a few times, it really lost it and puked,....I'd run a constant 200-220 moving around town, if I got stuck in bumper to bumper crawling traffic for more than 10-15 minutes, the temp would rise to 240-250 real quick!.... hyway, it would drop to 200 degrees,.....and I played with all the combo's, EVERYTHING was new, as this was a fresh total restoration/build,....carburation was addressed (6pak), timing, cooling system, everything,......the Zerex G-05 was a guess at best,.....but with no other changes, other than flushing the system, the car went from running in the 200-220 in traffic, to 180-200, running a 50/50 mix G-05/water,....after reading some mag reports on what waterwetters worked and what didn't, I went with the Redline product, 8 oz bottle to the 50/50 G-05,.....that was good for a 20 degree drop, now I have the opposite problem, waiting for the engine to warm up!,.....I took the Mellon out for a ride yesterday, it was quite humid, temp was around mid 80's, in the past it would hit 200+ easily cruising even at that temp,.....I was lucky if I saw no more than 180,....and I'm running a 180 thermostat, and I have a 5 row micro tube radiator, shroud, solid blade factory fan, plus wingcar seals through out the nose, and radiator channeling air to just the radiator


I'd highly recommend the G-05 Zerex brand and Redline waterwetter, it's not to be confused with Dexcool, which is junk, the Zerex is intended as a replacement for "green juice" users

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356148
07/26/09 11:01 PM
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I've got Prestone in it now. I added water wetter...didn't help at all, not one bit. Because I'm desperate (I've tried every trick in the book like you did), I'm going to drain the Prestone and substitute the Zerex G-05 and add another bottle of water wetter. It just seems too easy and no one reading this thread has commented on this procedure one way or the other.

Jim


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356149
07/27/09 12:09 AM
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It won't hurt to try that.

Hey Dayclona, I would look for a clutch fan that would fit the melon. Should free up some power and not run too hot now that you have things under control. My car is actually running better with a stock temp 190 high flow stat. Now it maintains 185-190, before it was running 170-180.


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356150
07/27/09 12:16 AM
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Quote:

It won't hurt to try that.

Hey Dayclona, I would look for a clutch fan that would fit the melon. Should free up some power and not run too hot now that you have things under control. My car is actually running better with a stock temp 190 high flow stat. Now it maintains 185-190, before it was running 170-180.











Actually the wingcars run hotter with clutch fans, the factory has several TSB's to replace clutch fans in Daytona's returing to dealerships complaining of hot run conditions,....the Superbirds were TSBed, at their "assembly line", although a few "escaped" with clutch fans

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356151
07/27/09 12:20 AM
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Quote:

I've got Prestone in it now. I added water wetter...didn't help at all, not one bit. Because I'm desperate (I've tried every trick in the book like you did), I'm going to drain the Prestone and substitute the Zerex G-05 and add another bottle of water wetter. It just seems too easy and no one reading this thread has commented on this procedure one way or the other.

Jim







Jim,


I did the same thing at first, tried waterwetter with Prestone and saw no change,....the Zerex G-05 is completely different in it's chemical "make up", you'll see if you try it, it's clear in color, dosen't leave a sticky mess like the green stuff, wipes off with no trace,....and it less filling, and tastes great



Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356152
07/27/09 12:44 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

It won't hurt to try that.

Hey Dayclona, I would look for a clutch fan that would fit the melon. Should free up some power and not run too hot now that you have things under control. My car is actually running better with a stock temp 190 high flow stat. Now it maintains 185-190, before it was running 170-180.











Actually the wingcars run hotter with clutch fans, the factory has several TSB's to replace clutch fans in Daytona's returing to dealerships complaining of hot run conditions,....the Superbirds were TSBed, at their "assembly line", although a few "escaped" with clutch fans




True, but G-05 and Water Wetter weren't out in 69-70.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356153
07/27/09 01:08 AM
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True, but G-05 and Water Wetter weren't out in 69-70.









Ahhhh!...you got me there!


Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356154
07/27/09 01:13 AM
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356155
07/27/09 06:13 PM
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Mike:

I took a copy of your post to my radiator man that's been trying to help me with my overheating problem. He had an empty bottle of Zerex G-05 and read me the warning on the back of it and suggested I run the language by you and see what you think...before I put it in the cooling system.
It says on the back: IMPORTANT CONSUMER INFORMATION....."Antifreeze/coolant chemistries are different. Products that contain Organic Acid Technology (OAT) chemistry are NOT approved by Ford & Daimler Chrysler for HOAT/G-05 applications. Products using OAT chemistry may be damaging to cooling systems that specify HYBRID ORGANIC ACID TECHNOLOGY (HOAT) chemistry based on OEM recommendations." Sounds rather serious. What do you think?

Jim


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356156
07/27/09 06:30 PM
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I think that means don't run it with Dexcool since Dex has a rust eating organism.

Drain what you have and run it.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356157
07/28/09 01:16 AM
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Quote:

I think that means don't run it with Dexcool since Dex has a rust eating organism.

Drain what you have and run it.









Exactly!,......I've been running the stuff(Zerex G-05) for about 5 years now in all my toys, daily drivers as well, with no problems, NOTHING,.....I wouldn't tell you to do something I haven't allready done, or use(d), when I refere to my Daytona's heating issuses, that was almost 5 years ago, when I "discovered" the Zerex G-05,....I haven't had a overheating issuse since, no corrosovive, or clogged componets, nothing,....the only issuse I have is now waiting for the car to "warm up"

The Dexcool is the crap you want to avoid, I'd heard to many horror stories from it's use to even consider it!,.....I do recommend if you use the Zerex G-05 with Redline waterwetter, you flush the system every year, and renew, as I see a slight increase in temp, as the year ends, I believe the effectiveness of the Zerex breaks down, plus it's a good idea to flush your system every year regardless IMHO



Just remember to really flush your system with clean water, don't leave any traces of the old coolant, if you know all your cooling componets are sound, and in excellent shape, don't replace any componets when changing over to the Zerex G-05 and WW, so that you can judge for yourself if it has any merit, on it's own in altering your cars cooling

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356158
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Thanks guys....I'm changing over tomorrow.

Jim


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356159
07/28/09 12:26 PM
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Where do you buy: Zerex G-05 and Redline waterwetter?

How much waterwetter do you add per gallon of zerex?

My local Dodge mechanic mentioned that somewhere in the 1970's he thought the 440 block changed from a thick wall to a thin wall and being the fact that the six pack block was bored 30 over means it will run hotter and if it is a thin wall block run even hotter. The six pack has a 1975 440 motor. Does anyone know if that would be a thin wall or thick wall block?

Thanks, Rob

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356160
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I have seen G-05 in NAPA and Water Wetter in O'Reillys and maybe AZ.

The nickel content was the big difference in later blcoks- they have less. You can have a thick wall late model block and a thin wall early block. Only a sonic check will reveal that.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356161
07/28/09 06:03 PM
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Is a December '68 383 a thick or thin wall design?


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356162
07/28/09 06:20 PM
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Years go MA had an article where they cut the ear off several blocks and checked them for hardness. The late model blocks were a tad softer.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356163
07/28/09 06:49 PM
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Update: We got the radiator flushed and the cap pressure tested and it came back ok. The radiator shop did find a small leak in the radiator and repaired it.

We bought the Zerex and water wetter and will install this Saturday and let you know how we make out.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356164
07/28/09 07:16 PM
07/28/09 07:16 PM
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May I suggest you get the rad in & try it w plain water(its not going to rust up in an hour for a test) & see where the temp is then drain it & put the 05/ww in which will take very little additional effort & will tell you(& us) exactly how good this stuff is. That much of a claimed drop is miraculous(just from using different fluids) but if you do more than one change at a time you'll never know & if it's good I'm on it.


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356165
07/28/09 08:18 PM
07/28/09 08:18 PM
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Quote:

Where do you buy: Zerex G-05 and Redline waterwetter?

How much waterwetter do you add per gallon of zerex?

Thanks, Rob









Zerex G-05 can be had at CarQuest, Auto zone, Pep boys,.....I've only seen the Redline at Autozone, it comes in a 8 oz bottle use the whole thing, I wouldn't substitute another WW manufacturer


Like I mentioned to Jim, if everything is up to snuff on your cooling system, don't make any changes, just add the Zerex and WW, and post your results,....and as Robert mentioned you have the rad flushed, just install, flush your motor, fill the system with just water run it/drive it, record your results, then bleed off enough fluid, usually a gallon, or close to it, and add the Zerex and WW, test drive record any/all changes,....then post your results

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356166
07/29/09 03:59 PM
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Should we fill the entire cooling system with Zerex and one bottle of water wetter or should the Zerex be diluted with some water added?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: RapidRobert] #356167
07/29/09 04:03 PM
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Quote:

May I suggest you get the rad in & try it w plain water(its not going to rust up in an hour for a test) & see where the temp is then drain it & put the 05/ww in which will take very little additional effort & will tell you(& us) exactly how good this stuff is. That much of a claimed drop is miraculous(just from using different fluids) but if you do more than one change at a time you'll never know & if it's good I'm on it.




Dayclona has already proven Zerex works. I am not sure just plain water would be a fair comparison. I suspect plain water would run hotter than any coolant.

We have everything clean, flushed and drained. We will just be doing the zerex and hope for the best. Tired of messing around with the problem.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356168
07/29/09 04:44 PM
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I would assume this Zerox Product is already premixed 50/50 in the bottle - Look at the container when you buy it

Water dissipates heat much much faster then any coolant/antifreeze will ever do - Alot of guys run straight water in the summer with some type of additive for corrosion protection (Hence Redline Water Wetter) - If your cooling system is working properly you dont have to worry about it boiling over with straight water - Remember straight water will dissipate heat much much faster

Antifreeze helps lower the boiling point - Protects against freezing - Corrosion protection
Blah Blah Blah

Check the bottle to make sure its 50/50 mix or straight , and if its straight , mix with distilled water and call her a day


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bee1971] #356169
07/29/09 06:52 PM
07/29/09 06:52 PM
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DAYCLONA Offline
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Quote:

I would assume this Zerox Product is already premixed 50/50 in the bottle - Look at the container when you buy it

Water dissipates heat much much faster then any coolant/antifreeze will ever do

Antifreeze helps lower the boiling point - Protects against freezing - Corrosion protection
Blah Blah Blah

Check the bottle to make sure its 50/50 mix or straight , and if its straight , mix with distilled water and call her a day







The Zerex G-05 is straight, not 50/50,......I tried straight water, straight water and no thermostat, I still experience hot running/near boil over conditions,.....The Zerex and WW was just one among may attempts at getting my car to run consitantly in a "manageable" zone 180-200, it worked for me after many failed attempts at trying to solve the problems this particuar car of mine was having, usually cooling problems are easy to isolate, but being a wingcar with reduced grille area,(24"X6") it's opening is almost 36" away from the radiator, presents some issuses


FYI, just a note, Antifreeze RAISES the boiling point of water, at a maxium mixture of 70% antifreeze and 30% distilled water, the boilng point of water (220) can be raised to 270 degrees,.... running pure antifreeze, will gaurantee you of problems, and the boilng point is reduced to about 200 degrees, not a wise choice,.....I'd recommend a 50/50 mix to start with regarding the Zerex G-05,......there's many types/grades of Zerex, make sure to use the G-05 formulation, usually the "gold" bottle, but double check!



Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356170
07/29/09 07:07 PM
07/29/09 07:07 PM
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Quote:

Should we fill the entire cooling system with Zerex and one bottle of water wetter or should the Zerex be diluted with some water added?










I start off putting 1 gallon of Zerex in, then the 8 oz, of waterwetter, the add water to the rest, usually 1 gallon, start the engine, let every thing run thru/mix, wait for the thermostat to open for operational tempatures,....I do recommend you drill an 1/8" diameter hole in the actual thermostats base flange,(nNOT the housing! ) as this bleeds the system of all or most air, and helps fill the system when dry, plus allows a small amount of fluid movement when the thermostat is closed, don't go no larger than 3/16", even a hole that size can flow pretty good!.....1/8" is ideal



Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356171
07/29/09 07:12 PM
07/29/09 07:12 PM
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DAYCLONA Offline
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Dayclona has already proven Zerex works.









Should read, Dayclona has aready proven Zerex works on his car


I can't guarantee your car,....so don't me too hard, if you still have problems ......just offering my



Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356172
07/29/09 09:34 PM
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Quote:

I start off putting 1 gallon of Zerex in, then the 8 oz, of waterwetter, the add water to the rest, usually 1 gallon, start the engine, let every thing run thru/mix, wait for the thermostat to open for operational tempatures,....I do recommend you drill an 1/8" diameter hole in the actual thermostats base flange,(nNOT the housing! ) as this bleeds the system of all or most air, and helps fill the system when dry, plus allows a small amount of fluid movement when the thermostat is closed, don't go no larger than 3/16", even a hole that size can flow pretty good!.....1/8" is ideal



Mike





Is tap water ok?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356173
07/30/09 07:31 AM
07/30/09 07:31 AM
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Haven't seen it mentioned so I just thought I would throw it into the mix.. Does the car have the hood to rad support rubber seal installed like they do on Max Cool/AC cars to help force all the engine compartment air through the rad. That and as someone mentioned the AC specific waterpump to draw out more heat.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356174
07/30/09 04:05 PM
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Update: Just changed over to Zerex G-05. Didn't do a bit of good. Still runs hot. I knew it was too good to be true but I am frustrated and had hope that the Zerex would help.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356175
07/30/09 06:18 PM
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How hot is it running?, and is it boiling over?............whats your combo, regarding cooling equipment?


Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356176
07/30/09 10:06 PM
07/30/09 10:06 PM
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Mike:

It runs warm on the highway but tolerable. When I stop it really starts to rise. It gets to about 230 and I have to either get out on the road running 40 M.P.H. or just shut it off. About 30 seconds after shutting it off, I turn the ignition to accessory and check the gauge and it is always pegged to the right.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356177
07/30/09 10:36 PM
07/30/09 10:36 PM
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You need a good gauge, if you are using factory I wouldn't trust it.

We need to know EXACTLY what it is running be able to tell you what to do.

Sounds like you need to look at the shrouding and fan position if you have a low speed problem.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356178
07/30/09 10:51 PM
07/30/09 10:51 PM
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I took it to the local radiator shop and the technician pointed his infared meter at all points on the engine and radiator. The gauge proved accurate. The car never came with a shroud but I purchased a used one, installed it, and removed the thermostat. Just took longer to heat up. However, there is about a 3/8 inch gap all the way around the shroud. I'm going to put black duct tape all the way around it and see if that helps. That's going to look real nice on an all original under hood appearance. The fan is 2" deep and exactly 1/2 of the blades are inside the shroud.

Jim


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356179
07/30/09 11:17 PM
07/30/09 11:17 PM
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Quote:

I took it to the local radiator shop and the technician pointed his infared meter at all points on the engine and radiator. The gauge proved accurate. The car never came with a shroud but I purchased a used one, installed it, and removed the thermostat. Just took longer to heat up. However, there is about a 3/8 inch gap all the way around the shroud. I'm going to put black duct tape all the way around it and see if that helps. That's going to look real nice on an all original under hood appearance. The fan is 2" deep and exactly 1/2 of the blades are inside the shroud.

Jim







Jim,....have you tried adapting (temporaryly) in the sending unit on the pump a thermocouple probe(radiator shop should have one) to record ACTUAL water temp, as hand held IR units are nice, they leave a little to be desired, your fan spacing sounds OK, a shrouud dose wonders also, what kind of fan/blade are you running?,


Do you experience boil over at idle/slow traffic conditions, I know we try to avoid that, but will the car spew if allowed to?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356180
07/30/09 11:45 PM
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Hey JSSuperbee- if you don'tmind please post your combo, cooling system specs, etc.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356181
07/30/09 11:53 PM
07/30/09 11:53 PM
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Southern Cal
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What Jets is the 6-Pack car running? Bet he is way to lean on the center carb.....


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356182
07/31/09 12:19 AM
07/31/09 12:19 AM
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Mike:

No I haven't tried a thermocouple. However, the radiator tech pointed his infared directly at the sending unit and it read the same as the gauge. I had all the gauges checked for operation and accuracy by that guy in Arkansas that does instrument clusters and gauges. The fan blade is the stock unit. A fixed/solid 7 blade that came on the non cool pack cars. The radiator does not boil over, but probably because I panic and shut the engine down. The radiator tech remade my radiator into a brand new 3 row. Now it just takes longer to heat up. I put a spring from an old hose in the brand new Gates lower radiator hose. So far I've thrown about $800 at the problem. I don't know if it will spew if allowed to and am reluctant to allow it with only 170 miles on the car.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356183
07/31/09 12:31 AM
07/31/09 12:31 AM
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What is your pulley setup?

What WP are you using?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356184
07/31/09 12:33 AM
07/31/09 12:33 AM
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OK here are the specs. The car is all original with 75,000 miles on it. I had the entire engine rebuilt with a .030 over bore and a one notch higher cam from MOPAR Performance(can't get the exact same original cam anymore). The car came with the solid/fixed 7 blade fan, 22" radiator, and no shroud. I had the timing checked and it is running 34 degrees total. Then, I had the radiator changed to a 3 row and installed a fan shroud, removed the thermostat, and put a spring in the lower hose. With all this, the engine just took longer to overheat. Earlier today, I put black duct tape all around the shroud as there is a 3/8 gap all around. That seemed to help. Now at idle it runs warm...about 210 but nowhere near what it was running. Then Mike said try Zerex G-05. Crossed my fingers and drained the Prestone and put in the Zerex. No good. Still idles as about 210 degrees with an outside temperature at a below normal 82 degrees.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356185
07/31/09 12:37 AM
07/31/09 12:37 AM
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Both the pulley and water pump are original pieces. I had the water pump professionaly rebuilt and looking inside the radiator while the engine is running looks as though the pump is doing its job.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356186
07/31/09 12:40 AM
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Are you sure the TDC mark is spot on?

Are you certain about the compression ratio? Maybe try some race fuel like one member did.

Did you burp the system good? Lots of guys on here talk of drilling the stat but I have always just watched for the stat to open and top off, check a few more times after a drive and all is good.

75K original so I guess pulleys are correct? Belt tight?

Maybe a bad pump?

210 isn't all that hot but doesn't leave any margin for error in my book.

Are you tried a high flow stat?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356187
07/31/09 12:57 AM
07/31/09 12:57 AM
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Yep the timing mark is right on. However, the car runs sluggish. The tune up tech says it is only pulling 13" of vacuum but he doesn't thing that is the over heating problem. My 6 cylinder Buick Lucerne can run circles around the bee. Never attempted to check the compression. I could try some race fuel as that is one thing I haven't tried. What ratio with gas should I try? Burped the system on each attempt. Now running with no thermostat. Yeah...we checked the pulleys and the belt today. It's a tiny bit loose but nothing to cause overheating. The pump was rebuilt during the engine overhaul process and the coolant moves quite well through the top of the radiator. The radiator tech recommends I continue to run without a thermostat and try to get about 600 miles on the rebuilt engine. I just don't think that the engine being freshly overhauled would cause it to over heat. Heck these engines didn't overheat when they were brand new.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356188
07/31/09 01:13 AM
07/31/09 01:13 AM
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I would dump as much as i could in there to see if that was it. Better to have a ton in there than a little and not get the full effect.

Was the block sonic checked? Maybe it has a thin spot even with the small overbore?

I would also consider the rebuilt pump is bad. It happens.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356189
07/31/09 01:29 AM
07/31/09 01:29 AM
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Jim,



If you'd like, try this, won't cost anything but time, and a little gas,.....if you have a standard radiator cap, not one of those snap locking rad caps,.....check the fluid level in the radiator, put the cap on, tighten it, then back it off to the point were its loose, but can't be removed unless you fully depress and turn it past the locking tabs, the point were it's ready to be removed, but just flops around, leave it like this, start the car, let it warm up, slowly rev it, causeing the overflow tube to purge what fluid it don't need for top tank volume, usually 1 inch below the filling neck,.....if the car is running within temp, take it out for a drive, reason for keeping the cap loose is for pressure not to build in the ststem, as you drive you may purge some fluid out the overflow as engine RPM increases,.....post your results with this test if you would please

Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356190
07/31/09 08:03 AM
07/31/09 08:03 AM
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Williamsport, PA
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Rob440Magnum Offline OP
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Quote:

Then Mike said try Zerex G-05. Crossed my fingers and drained the Prestone and put in the Zerex. No good. Still idles as about 210 degrees with an outside temperature at a below normal 82 degrees.





Did you dilute the Zerex-05 with distilled water and secondly did you add a bottle of water wetter?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356191
07/31/09 08:07 AM
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Running without a stat can cause the motor to run hotter because the coolant never stays in the radiator long enough to be cooled.

After all the different things you recently tried, you may want to put the stat back in and see how it works now.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356192
07/31/09 11:11 AM
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Quote:

Running without a stat can cause the motor to run hotter because the coolant never stays in the radiator long enough to be cooled.

After all the different things you recently tried, you may want to put the stat back in and see how it works now.




That is exactly what I was thinking- You pretty much have to have a stat in there, it constantly opens and closes to keep the water in your radiator long enough to cool it, then opens a bit and closes back and forth. With out one, your system is just going to heat up to a certain temp without regulation.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Kirby] #356193
07/31/09 04:30 PM
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Two things:

1) Question I need answered - Does drilling the thermostat 1/8" really help keep the temp down?

2) Years ago my dad was changing freeze plugs and dropped one in the water passage of the block; He said car developed a "hot Spot"? and it always ran hotter after that incident. It was a chevy small block if that matters.

The reason I mention this is the remote possiblity that someone at some point might have left an old punched out freeze plug in the block or head causing a small blockage?

I'm not as knowledgable as some of the previoius posters here on this tgopic, but I thought this might help.


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Hoof Hearted] #356194
07/31/09 04:42 PM
07/31/09 04:42 PM
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Quote:

Two things:

1) Question I need answered - Does drilling the thermostat 1/8" really help keep the temp down?






I had a old v6 acura that I did not want to do a headgasket on that would get a air bubble and start getting hot until all of a sudden it would go down. I put a small hole in the themostat as a stop gap until I had time to replace the gasket. I never changed the gasket and it last another 60 k before I sold the car.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356195
07/31/09 05:54 PM
07/31/09 05:54 PM
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Missouri, U.S.A.
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Mike:

I'm taking the car out tomorrow night to the local cruise spot. I'll try leaving the radiator cap 1/2 on and loose and let you know. However, the radiator tech did fill the radiator to within about 1 inch from the top yesterday.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Rob440Magnum] #356196
07/31/09 05:56 PM
07/31/09 05:56 PM
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Yep! I followed Mike's instructions exactly.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356197
08/01/09 10:46 PM
08/01/09 10:46 PM
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Mike:

Just got back from the cruise. I did like you said and loosened the radiator cap one notch so it was still on but loose. When I got to the cruise spot it wasn't running hot but it was purging coolant out of both the overflow hose and the radiator cap. About a pint was pushed out on to the ground.

Jim


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356198
08/02/09 12:13 AM
08/02/09 12:13 AM
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Quote:

Mike:

Just got back from the cruise. I did like you said and loosened the radiator cap one notch so it was still on but loose. When I got to the cruise spot it wasn't running hot but it was purging coolant out of both the overflow hose and the radiator cap. About a pint was pushed out on to the ground.

Jim










The radiator was "adjusting" fluid level due to Engine RPM, heat expansion, etc

Jim, the reason I asked you to do that "test", and I would repeat another driving run to see if the car overheats, you say it didn't overheat this time, was it at "operational" temp, what was the highest temp you hit?......on the next run, check the fluid level, if you can see it in the radiator, don't add anymore, make sure you have enough fluid in it though, the engine running with the cap loose, purged what it didn't/couldn't hold at full level,.......I had you do this Jim, because I suspect several things, leaving the cap loose, dosen't allow the system to pressurize, I suspect you have a bad head gasket(s), or a cracked head(s), and the exhaust is pressurizeing and heating the cooling system, I've seen this before, in severe cases the cooling system appears to boil over and spew at normal operation tempatures, I 'll assume your running a 14-16 lb cap,........if you were to run a 5-7 lb cap, I'd suspect you'd boil over/spew the system even at a nominal running temp,......what happens is the exhaust gas in the pressurized, and capped, cooling system creates a steam bubble, and prevents the fluid from moving thru the cooling system, so temps go up, pressure builds, eventually spewing,.....buy keeping the radiator cap off slightly, you alow combustion gases/pressures to vent to the atmosphere


run the car a few times up to temp with the radiator cap "loose", if no more overheating/spewing happens, try a 5-7 lb cap, if it overheats/spews,....my money is on the heads/head gaskets,.....I've worked on an engine that had similar problems once, blew 2 head gaskets, would overheat with the cap on, but off was fine, the culprit I found was the machine shop had inserted a block dowl for the head upside down, the tapered end should have been up, the barrel end was holding the head off the deck and gasket by ever so much, it didn't allow the head to fully compress the gasket, resulting in a leak, causing a pressurized cooling system, I've found that you can pressurize a cooling system without having the usual symtoms, like oil in water, or water in the cylinder misting/plumeing out the exhaust, etc........you said the engine was rebuilt?, low mileage, after intial break in, did you retorque the head bolts?....if not, you might get lucky, and try that, you "might" solve the problem, if it's the gaskets,( if they aren't damaged) if it's cracked head(s),.....you know the drill, you might want to have a leakdown compression test done on all the cylinders to pinpoint a cylinder, or bank, or which head, if that's the case,......this is my honest opinion as to what I would suspect, and approach as being the possible problem, from past experience with it,....but keep in mind, I'm on a computer,....not under the hood, hands on, on your car, I can only "see" what you tell me


Mike

PS,...Has your "radiator guy" used an exhaust gas detector to check/take reading for spent exhaust in the coolant/radiator?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356199
08/02/09 05:41 PM
08/02/09 05:41 PM
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Mike:

As I mentioned before....after I put black duct tape around the shroud, the engine runs cooler. At idle and outside temperature of about 82 degrees it idles and maintains a temperature of about 210 degrees. I had just gotten off the highway and drove about 1/4 mile to the cruise spot and the temperature was normal. The needle showed mid way on the gauge. That's probably 195 to 200 degrees. I got out of the car and coolant was running out on the ground. The next run will be Friday afternoon for another local cruise about 10 miles away. The reason I don't think I have a cracked head is because the engine rebuilder did a magnuflux check. You're right....I'm running a stock 16lb. cap. I had the coolant checked twice for combustion gasses and both times proved negative so it would seem that the Fel Pro head gaskets are'nt leaking. The radiator tech suggests getting 600 miles on the newly rebuilt engine and then returning to his shop for more tests. I've got 203 miles on it now. Also, the thermostat has been removed. Here again, it seems to now be holding its own at about 210 degrees at an idle. Maybe I can live with this. Some say putting a Miloden 180 thermostat in it will cause it to run cooler. I was going to wait until I had the 600 miles on it before re-installing a thermostat. At the cruise last night a couple of guys gave me the names of so-called experts to take the car to. I figured that may be a good idea since what ever is making this car run real sluggish may be what is causing the warm running condition (no longer completely overheats after installing the duct tape around the shroud). I did not retorque the headbolts....thought I would run that task by the experts when I take it to one of them. I would think they would also do a leakdown compression test. I'm printing your last post to take to either expert for their review as your input seems helpful and contains some probable causes. Since I hi-jacked this thread...maybe I should PM you with the results of the next test that you suggested.

Jim


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356200
08/02/09 05:48 PM
08/02/09 05:48 PM
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Sounds good, Jim, I hope you solve this proplem, as I know it can be fustrateing not being able to enjoy the car, after putting so much into it



Mike

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356201
08/03/09 12:39 AM
08/03/09 12:39 AM
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I would put the stat back in. It won't cause your problem to be worse. If it did, it would just indicate a flow problem- either due to a bad stat or otherwise.

I would like to see a test with the stat back in there and the G-05 WW combo.

You are right that whatever is wrong might be the reason it isn't running liek it should. Problem in figuring out what that issue is that we can't narrow things down if the basics aren't what they need to be.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: DAYCLONA] #356202
08/03/09 09:32 AM
08/03/09 09:32 AM
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The Milodon thermostat is a HIGH FLOW stat like I sugested earlier. Robertshaw also makes this type of thermostat. I use modern high flow pumps (edelbrock- milodon)and 85% distilled water, waterwetter and some antifreez for a cool running car. Make shure your car is not running lean and that the timeing is not retarded.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: THESHAKERPROJECT] #356203
08/03/09 10:06 AM
08/03/09 10:06 AM
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Did you ever pull any spark plugs from each head to check color/appearance ??? - Lean condition at idle / cruise condition like so many others have mentioned

I agree on the thermostat 160/180 milodon high flow - Has to bee in there


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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: bee1971] #356204
08/03/09 05:43 PM
08/03/09 05:43 PM
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A couple of weeks ago I took it to a profesional
engine tuner and he pulled a plug from one head and said it looked perfect.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356205
08/03/09 05:48 PM
08/03/09 05:48 PM
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I ordered a 180 high flow Miloden stat from Year One about 1/2 hour ago. They said it would take 2 weeks to get it. Right now the Zerex G-05 and water wetter are in it from when Mike suggested it. Ill be leaving that combo as is. In a couple weeks I'll be able to perform that test.


James Stinebaker
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: JSSuperbee] #356206
08/03/09 08:02 PM
08/03/09 08:02 PM
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That's a long time for a themostat to come.Did you try somewhere else first?

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: gtx69] #356207
08/03/09 11:52 PM
08/03/09 11:52 PM
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Cancel if you can and check with Jegs or Summit. I bet it is in stock at those places and cheaper to boot.

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: SomeCarGuy] #356208
08/04/09 10:44 AM
08/04/09 10:44 AM
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Quote:

Cancel if you can and check with Jegs or Summit. I bet it is in stock at those places and cheaper to boot.




and if they do have in stock the chances of you seeing in two days is real likely.


Moparlee
Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: Robbins] #356209
08/04/09 02:14 PM
08/04/09 02:14 PM
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That's probably where Year One is getting the one to send you, hence the 2 weeks.
Jim

Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why [Re: 1fastrunner] #356210
08/04/09 06:06 PM
08/04/09 06:06 PM
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Too late! I'm commited. I can wait. I have to get
600 miles on the car before going back to the radiator shop and I've only got 218 on it now. I may have to run it up and down the highway a bunch of times. It runs normal temperature on the highway.


James Stinebaker
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