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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: RapidRobert]
#356108
06/29/09 06:42 PM
06/29/09 06:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
Any thoughts?
I'm not sure on this but I think at least 2/3 in. 20% in for sure is not enough, yes add a spacer when you find out the correct amt
start with getting a 50/50 spacing in the shroud, 75 % in, has the same effect as 75 % out, from what I've found with playing with wingcars, buy placing a sheet of typewriter paper on the grille at idle, and playing with nothing but a handful of spacers with the same car, 50/50 seemed to hold the paper to the grille, where as to far in, or out wouldn't hold the paper to the grille,....unscientific perhaps?
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356112
07/19/09 10:51 PM
07/19/09 10:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 533
Williamsport, PA
Rob440Magnum
OP
mopar addict
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OP
mopar addict
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 533
Williamsport, PA
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Quote:
Temps comparison done today on both cars:
six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block
my car 4 bbl:
175 degrees - top of radiator
160 degrees - intake manifold
Can't remember the rest of the numbers. I should have written them down but the six pack was much much hotter than mine in every comparison.
When I first popped my hood my radiator temp (4 bbl car) was 165 degrees and then it moved up towards 175 as it set there for a little. Do you think that is because my fan blades are too far out and not 50-50 within the shroud?
The six pack car the fan blades are 50% in and 50% out of the shroud, so that looks to be ok.
Thanks, Rob
What do you guys think? Is the six pack running too hot? Is there concern based upon those temps?
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Classof70Chally]
#356115
07/20/09 01:54 AM
07/20/09 01:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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More thoughts. On the hot one(the six pack) I'd (1)wire the heat riser open & R&R the intake & block the passage & try it out (2) R&R the clutch fan w a fixed blade one & try it out (3) pull the stat & try it out (4) rejet the center carb 4 sizes up & try it out (5) bump the initial up 5-7.5 degrees & try it out (6) jack up the front end high, take out the stat & rev the eng several times to possibly push an air bubble up & out just like burping a baby(hey it's after midnite here).(7) have a radiator shop check that there are no combustion gasses in the coolant
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356116
07/20/09 03:36 AM
07/20/09 03:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
bogusracer
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
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Quote:
Temps comparison done today on both cars:
six pack:
205 degrees - top of radiator
230 degrees - intake manifold area
210 degrees - water pump area
215 degrees - block
my car 4 bbl:
175 degrees - top of radiator
160 degrees - intake manifold
Can't remember the rest of the numbers. I should have written them down but the six pack was much much hotter than mine in every comparison.
When I first popped my hood my radiator temp (4 bbl car) was 165 degrees and then it moved up towards 175 as it set there for a little. Do you think that is because my fan blades are too far out and not 50-50 within the shroud?
The six pack car the fan blades are 50% in and 50% out of the shroud, so that looks to be ok.
Thanks, Rob
Take your lazer temp gauge and measure the temp of the exhaust manifolds immediately after having cruised the car for 10 to 15 mins. at approx. 55 mph. Do a comparison of the 6 pack vs. the 440 mag. car. I think you'll find the 6 pack is running in a lean mode at cruise and most likely at idle also causing a much higher exhaust temp reading than the 4 bbl. 440. My experience with a stock cammed 6 pack has been to go to # 66 jets on the center carb with a #65 power valve. You'll also have to pull the outboard carbs base lead plugs to get to the carb idle screws at the front of the carb baseplates. I'd probably start at about a 1/2 turn out from a closed position on the outboard carbs. (Be careful trying to adjust these idle screws as they may be stuck and forcing them will break them - you may have to spray some type of solvent like "Let-go" to free them up) This will put you around 2-3 turns out on the center carb idle adjustment screws. You can "Balance" the idle screw adjustments on the outboard carbs by placing your finger tips over the Idle bleed holes with the car idling. (the idle bleed hole are visible when looking down the throat of the carbs forward of the booster venturies (There will be 2 bleed holes at each venturi and you can ID them by looking at them and they look like small brass plugs with holes drilled thru them)) With the engine running at idle, cover both outboard bleed holes with your fingertips on one of the outboard carbs and if you have it adjusted properly there should be no noticable change in the RPM of the engine at idle. If the RPM increases then you are too lean so open up the idle screw a little on the outboard carb you are checking. If the rpm drops then close the screw some. Adjust the outboard carbs only this way, making sure you keep the total idle speed in the 700 to 800 rpm range after each adjustment. (a timing light with a digital tach readout is a great help when doing this). Then do the 2nd outboard carb the same way. Once you have the ouboards adjusted then adjust the center carb to achieve the proper idle speed. This should balance the carbs at idle and stabalize the temp at each exhaust port so you don't have any cylinder running too lean at idle and causing excessive heat. If you are running anything other than a stock cam, then check your engine vacuum at idle and install a power valve that is at least 1/2 the value of the vacuum reading. ie. vacuum reading of 9 in. vacuum then run a 4.5 power valve or even a 4.0. This will get you out of an over rich issue at idle on a hotter than stock cam and eliminate the black smoke, burn your eyes issues from the exhaust on a non-stock cammed sixpack. Also if you have an engine backfire on a sixpack it generally will blow the power valve and you'll run rich at idle and pour black smoke out the exhaust at idle that will burn your eyes. (Jeg's sells a power valve saver for Holley Carbs that keeps this from happening and it's a breeze to install on the center carb). Doing these things should help you with your running hot issues. Also using a Fel Pro #1215 Intake Valley Gasket with the heat crossover blocked will help too. Just wire the choke flap open and about 2 pumps on the acellerator pedal on a cold start up should get it too fire off pretty quick. Once the engine is hot it should start pretty easy.
Anyway I hope this helps you with your issues. Feel free to PM me and I'll get you a phone number to contact me if you need any clarification on this.
Good Luck and Mopar to Ya'
Jeff - a.k.a.- Bogusracer
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356118
07/20/09 07:36 AM
07/20/09 07:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
bogusracer
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
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Quote:
One more thought, the six pack cars warms up 3 times as fast as the 4 bbl car. The 4 bbl car has to drive 3 times as far as the six pack car to get to full operating temp.
I don't know if this information means anything to anyone?
Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.
Possible Non A/C water pump impellor with eight blades vs. an A/C water pump impellor with 6 blades. Use the A/C one as it moves the water a little slower allowing the radiator to transfer heat better and cool the water more when running vs. a Non A/C water pump.
Or -
Possible difference in compression ratios:
Six Packs had a 10.5 to 1 factory compression ratio (1970 & 71)
440 Magnums had a 10.0 to 1 (67 to 69)
and a 9.7 to 1 in 1970 & 71.
Running todays lower Octane fuel could cause a difference in the running temps with the higher compression ratio engine especially if you have different timing curves on the distributors and different initial timing on the 2 engines. Also be sure the R/S exhaust manifold has the heat control valve fixed to be open all the time. You may have to validate it by disconnecting the exhaust pipe to physically check that it is open. Myself I just cut the flapper valve out of the manifold and leave the rod running through so it looks OEM but has no restriction.
Good Luck
Jeff - aka - bogusracer
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: bogusracer]
#356119
07/20/09 10:32 AM
07/20/09 10:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
bee1971
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810
Sobieski Wi
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Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.
BINGO
Just went thru this with my 71 Bee - Would run 200-210 even on the hwy at cruising speeds this spring
4 core 22" radiator and all componets had worked perfect last spring/summer when i popped in a new 180 degree Mr Gasket high flow thermostat
This spring after a few trips the temps started running a little higher then i liked , 200-210 so i looked at coolant mixture / straight water and water wetter blah blah blah - Was just about to pull the radiator for a flush when i called and found locally a Milodon 160 degree high flow thermostat
(They didnt have the Milodon 180 high flow in stock)
Popped her in and WOW - Yesterday took us 45 minutes to move two blocks for a local 1,200 count car show and not a degree over 160 on my Auto Meter Ultralight Gauge - Flawless on the hwy cruising at 3000/3500 Rpms also for an hour with my 3:91 gears - I would have been screwed if i still had the Mr Gasket in there yesterday
Sometimes its the simple things that are overlooked - That My Gasket Thermostat had one summer on it when it started to go south this spring - I posted under another thread about Mr Gasket a few days ago
My point is like mentioned - Thermostats due fail even when new or slightly used
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: bee1971]
#356120
07/20/09 01:52 PM
07/20/09 01:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
bogusracer
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
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Quote:
Potential issue with the thermostat not opening all the way on the Six Pack car. Allowing it to heat up faster.
BINGO
Just went thru this with my 71 Bee - Would run 200-210 even on the hwy at cruising speeds this spring
4 core 22" radiator and all componets had worked perfect last spring/summer when i popped in a new 180 degree Mr Gasket high flow thermostat
This spring after a few trips the temps started running a little higher then i liked , 200-210 so i looked at coolant mixture / straight water and water wetter blah blah blah - Was just about to pull the radiator for a flush when i called and found locally a Milodon 160 degree high flow thermostat
(They didnt have the Milodon 180 high flow in stock)
Popped her in and WOW - Yesterday took us 45 minutes to move two blocks for a local 1,200 count car show and not a degree over 160 on my Auto Meter Ultralight Gauge - Flawless on the hwy cruising at 3000/3500 Rpms also for an hour with my 3:91 gears - I would have been screwed if i still had the Mr Gasket in there yesterday
Sometimes its the simple things that are overlooked - That My Gasket Thermostat had one summer on it when it started to go south this spring - I posted under another thread about Mr Gasket a few days ago
My point is like mentioned - Thermostats due fail even when new or slightly used
Just as a followup to the above testimony, you can check the thermostat by putting it in a pan of water and heating it up on the stove to see how much it is opening. Also check the thermostat housing to make sure there is no interference with the functioning of the thermostat when installed, and check the thermostat housing gasket for interference upon installation.
One other trick to do especially if putting together a new motor or a rebuild is to drill a small 1/16 to 1/8 Inch hole through the thermostat to allow air to bypass through when filling the radiator with water/antifreeze. This will allow the block to completely fill with water/antifreeze and not trap air in the block causing a potential overheating issue on run in with a new/rebuilt engine. It will not affect the operation of the thermostat if done correctly.
Good Luck.....
Jeff - aka. Bogusracer
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356122
07/20/09 08:19 PM
07/20/09 08:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:
so definitely cooler.
What does that tell you guys, bad t-stat?
He bought a new t-stat
(1)thats real good news. (2) yes (3)I'd push it open several times w your fingers to make sure it's not stuck & suspend it in a pot(not touching the bottom)along w a candy thermometer & see if it opens all the way(what the prior stat problem was) and note what temp it starts to open & what temp it's open all the way as you bring it close to a boil & I would drill the 1/16" hole to aid getting the air out. EDIT while you are at it suspend the old stat also & see how it acts
Last edited by RapidRobert; 07/20/09 09:03 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356124
07/20/09 08:44 PM
07/20/09 08:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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anywhere in the flat part roughly halfway in from the edge, just not so close to the edge that it interferes w the gasket. Set it in the housing and you want it so that it's location lets it flow & doesn't interfere with either the outer gasket or the actual thermostat mechanism in the center
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: Rob440Magnum]
#356125
07/21/09 03:16 AM
07/21/09 03:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
bogusracer
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 306
Texas
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Quote:
Here is what we tried tonight. We removed the 180 degree t-stat and ran it without a t-stat. The car ran much cooler. I forgot my laser temp gun so I could not measure the exact temp, however the car's factory temp guage was reading much lower. I could hold my hand near the engine all night without it feeling like my skin was going to melt, so definitely cooler.
What does that tell you guys, bad t-stat?
He bought a new 180 degree t-stat from NAPA today and was going to put that on tomorrow and then see how it runs.
Rob,
I agree 100% with Rapid Roberts followup responses, and I appreciate his added input.
You might however want to consider a 160 degree thermosat, just to keep the engine as cool as possible as quickly as possible.
Additionally, just a heads up though concerning the jetting I mentioned on my earlier post. I would still run the test after cruising the car (Once you have the thermostat/excessive heat issue resolved). and make the appropriate jetting mods, since the Six Packs in stock form were jetted lean from the factory and you'll see a definite decrease in exhaust gas temp at cruise by going to the # 66 jets on the center carb, and balancing the idle on all 3 carbs. Throttle response will improve slightly too.
But the choice is yours on that one.
Anyway I hope I've been of some assistance in troubleshooting your problem along with all the other guys valuable input.
Good Luck and keep us posted.
Jeff - aka. - Bogusracer
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Re: 440 six pack - running hot - why
[Re: bogusracer]
#356126
07/21/09 07:00 AM
07/21/09 07:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 533
Williamsport, PA
Rob440Magnum
OP
mopar addict
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OP
mopar addict
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 533
Williamsport, PA
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Quote:
You might however want to consider a 160 degree thermosat, just to keep the engine as cool as possible as quickly as possible.
If we put the 160 t-stat in, the motor will not heat up anymore than about 160 degrees correct?
I've heard you lose power if the motor runs too cool and that it may not be good for the motor long-term if it does not run hot enough. This is a street car not a drag car.
Any follow-up comments on my reply?
Thanks, Rob
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