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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353524
06/22/09 02:48 PM
06/22/09 02:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
So, in this case, what would happen when I turn on my headlights? Wouldn't they then be running off the battery? i.e. - the regulator would see this constant 12V from the direct battery connection, so the alternator would not kick out more voltage until the 12V+ from the battery dropped below whatever threshold the regulator needs to turn on. Isn't that not good?
I just want to make sure I understand all this.
Turning on the headlights will have no more effect on the charging system in this situation, than it would in any other.
Accesory load will MORE accurately be read in this location. The regulator will maintain a MORE steady voltage than it ever did, doing it this way.
As for the dimming headlights, it may help, but only if the alternator is up to the task.
And yes, 12 G should be fine. I believe the factory wire is only 14 or 16.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353525
06/22/09 02:52 PM
06/22/09 02:52 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Then run heavy wire from the relay directly to the main alternator pos post or the battery poitive post. This goes on the heavy circuit of the relay. Wire the other side of this relay circuit to the regulator.
I didn't see this post yesterday. Sounds like a quick and dirty way to get my car on the road. Is 12ga wire heavy enough for the positive run?
So, in this case, what would happen when I turn on my headlights? Wouldn't they then be running off the battery? i.e. - the regulator would see this constant 12V from the direct battery connection, so the alternator would not kick out more voltage until the 12V+ from the battery dropped below whatever threshold the regulator needs to turn on. Isn't that not good?
I just want to make sure I understand all this.
Would this also give me the added bonus of headlights not going dim at idle? I've seen references to a fix for that, and never looked into yet ('cause my headlights don't even work at this point, it was a "get to it later" thing).
12ga should be plenty heavy. You might reread the whole thread, I mentioned a relay as well.
So far as headlights/ voltage:
ONCE YOU HAVE the regulator "had tied" to the battery voltage, that is, both a ground and a "sense" (ign) feed WITH NO DROP, then it does not matter what you do with the rest of the car----
the regulator will "try" and maintain it's set voltage, whatever that is, IE about 14-14.5V if it's working correctly.
What SHOULD happend in a good working system--one with no drop in the regulator circuit, no slipping belt, and a good, solid alternator, is that the system should "run" down the road at about 14V +/- V depending on temperature.
When you turn on ANY load, lights, cig lighter, heater, the regulator should IMMEDIATELY try to hold the SYSTEM (battery) voltage steady. The ONLY time this is not so is----
When you have "drop" problems in the regulator circuit as you seem to have
When you have problems with battery cables, and in some cases, the battery itself
When the alternator just "can't keep up" that is, either the alternator is an old 3x A unit, or has a winding or diode problem and just can't put out enough
When the belt begins to slip
NOW NONE OF THE ABOVE has anything to do with how bright the lights are!!! This is because the regulator MAY BE holding the system (battery) voltage at the proper voltage, BUT.....
The lighting circuit is a separate wire, separate connections, separate switch, and all this may ALSO have a "drop" problem, and because the headlights go through the bulkhead connector, they CERTAINLY have at least one more connection subject to corrosion/ looseness/ resistance, and voltage drop.
Using headlight relay(s) may be a good soloution. The wireing on all these old girls was not "all that heavy" even back then, and certainly hasn't improved with age.
You might want to study up on "Ohm's Law" and what we call "I squared R" losses.
If you draw a diagram of a battery--fuse--switch--resistor--lamp--back to battery
The resistor becomes a representation of all ADDITIVE losses in that circuit which are "at least"
The connections at the battery
The connections at the fuseholder and the fuse itself
The connections at the switch and the switch contacts IN the switch itself
The connections at the lamp
All these tiny resistances add up. When the load (size of the lamp) is increased, TWO THINGS may happen
One you get more loss because with a larger load you have more current flow, and this caused more VOLTAGE drop (loss) at each resistance
TWO this larger current causes HEAT which will cause some resistances to go UP in resistance and lose even MORE voltage (drop) so it's a never ending cycle.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353526
06/22/09 03:02 PM
06/22/09 03:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255
IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255
IL
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Quote:
Quote:
Then run heavy wire from the relay directly to the main alternator pos post or the battery poitive post. This goes on the heavy circuit of the relay. Wire the other side of this relay circuit to the regulator.
I didn't see this post yesterday. Sounds like a quick and dirty way to get my car on the road. Is 12ga wire heavy enough for the positive run?
So, in this case, what would happen when I turn on my headlights? Wouldn't they then be running off the battery? i.e. - the regulator would see this constant 12V from the direct battery connection, so the alternator would not kick out more voltage until the 12V+ from the battery dropped below whatever threshold the regulator needs to turn on. Isn't that not good?
I just want to make sure I understand all this.
Would this also give me the added bonus of headlights not going dim at idle? I've seen references to a fix for that, and never looked into yet ('cause my headlights don't even work at this point, it was a "get to it later" thing).
Doing this would get the car running again safely, but depending on where the drop is, anything 'behind' it that's getting power will be getting 12v - the drop, correct? He'll be underpowering the problem component/circuit.
70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: furious70]
#353527
06/22/09 03:21 PM
06/22/09 03:21 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Then run heavy wire from the relay directly to the main alternator pos post or the battery poitive post. This goes on the heavy circuit of the relay. Wire the other side of this relay circuit to the regulator.
I didn't see this post yesterday. Sounds like a quick and dirty way to get my car on the road. Is 12ga wire heavy enough for the positive run?
So, in this case, what would happen when I turn on my headlights? Wouldn't they then be running off the battery? i.e. - the regulator would see this constant 12V from the direct battery connection, so the alternator would not kick out more voltage until the 12V+ from the battery dropped below whatever threshold the regulator needs to turn on. Isn't that not good?
I just want to make sure I understand all this.
Would this also give me the added bonus of headlights not going dim at idle? I've seen references to a fix for that, and never looked into yet ('cause my headlights don't even work at this point, it was a "get to it later" thing).
Doing this would get the car running again safely, but depending on where the drop is, anything 'behind' it that's getting power will be getting 12v - the drop, correct? He'll be underpowering the problem component/circuit.
You have to understand what "drop" we are talking about. The start of the thread was "overcharging" which seems to be caused by voltage drop IN ONE CIRCUIT, IE the circuit feeding the ign terminal of the regulator. DEPENDING on where this drop is coming from, it may not affect other circuits at all.
However, even eliminating it with the relay suggessted should make it easier to find as it goes to other circuits, example, if in the ignition switch hot feed.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
#353528
06/22/09 03:56 PM
06/22/09 03:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
You have to understand what "drop" we are talking about. The start of the thread was "overcharging" which seems to be caused by voltage drop IN ONE CIRCUIT, IE the circuit feeding the ign terminal of the regulator. DEPENDING on where this drop is coming from, it may not affect other circuits at all.
With that in mind, I started tracing the wiring diagram to see where the circuit that feeds the IGN terminal goes to. One of the connections, DK Blue TR feeds to the ignition switch, and then directly from there feeds into the Brake Light Warning Lamp and brake light pressure switch. By coincidence, this light is always on (and pretty darn bright too, compared to other lights in the dash). I never worried about it before, since the brakes work fine I was just going to get to it later.
This may not be the problem, but it gives me a logic spot to start. (And if someone wants to chime in and say "well OF COURSE that's the problem, I'd be OK with that).
I also noticed that both of the IGN feed wires run through the bulkhead on either side of the Black Ammeter wire that fried the other day right at the bulkhead connector. Maybe they were bad too, but since they weren't obviously fried I didn't notice. (And someone above said I should re-check all those anyway)
At least at this point I'm feeling a little less overwhelmed by where to start. I might skip the relay thing until I at least track down some basic stuff. Its good to know that if all else fails, I can fall back on the relay for now.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353529
06/22/09 04:06 PM
06/22/09 04:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255
IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255
IL
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#12 and #16, one is brown, one is dk blue with white tracer if it's like my Fury. I just went through that part of the harness to correct a meltdown. I'm running a 1 wire alt and several non-stock things now, so mine is now different.
On mine, the dk blue wire goes from the key into a big splice that powers the lights as you mention, then out to the bulkhead. Definitely look at both sides of the bulkhead for those wires along with your charge wire.
You haven't added any aftermarket stuff hanging off the switch, have you?
70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: furious70]
#353530
06/22/09 04:14 PM
06/22/09 04:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
You haven't added any aftermarket stuff hanging off the switch, have you?
Only aftermarket thing is the voltmeter I added after I by-passed the factory Amp gauge. Now that I know how to test the voltage drop at the regulator, I think I'll disconnect the voltmeter and do another drop test. It would be just my luck that I accidentally caused this whole mess by using a cheap voltmeter.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353531
06/22/09 07:01 PM
06/22/09 07:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Hmm - hooked up a jumper cable to the IGN terminal on the regulator. I had the IGN wires unplugged from the tab, just pulled it off and hooked up the jumper cable. I connected the other end of the jumper cable to my battery (to the post connector, not the post itself). Still had the voltage draw. I did this once with a set of jumper cables, and a second time with a set of test wires.
This would seem to me that it IS the regulator itself. Can't buy one at the local parts store, have to order it.
I know, I know, I was told to do this first. But it sure seemed unlikely that this would actually be the real problem. I won't know until I pop in a new one.
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353533
06/24/09 08:21 PM
06/24/09 08:21 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I feel kinda sheepish. After focusing on all the bad-news-what-if stuff, it was the regulator after all. I should have just done the basic test outlined above first. Test the ground to the case, test the 12V+ into the IGN side from the battery.
I'm not one to throw money at parts just to see if it solves a problem, but when I found out a cheap regulator was only about $10 I went for it. For $10 it was worth it. I'll still need to buy a decent 60AMP electronic unit when I replace the alternator with an upgraded one, but the the $10 one can go in the spare parts box.
Thanks for everyone's help. I now feel extremely educated on the rest of the wiring system on my car. I've got other electrical gremlins to chase down, and this experience will help a lot.
This just might have taught you a great deal about electrics in general, and how "stuff works" in your particular car. I see people on forums all the time that don't understand the first basic things about hookin' stuff up so it works
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
#353535
06/24/09 09:12 PM
06/24/09 09:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
Gusteve
OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
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OP
I Love the Unicorn Song!!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,660
Flint, MI
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Quote:
This just might have taught you a great deal about electrics in general, and how "stuff works" in your particular car.
The concept of testing voltage drop-down across a circuit was very new to me. Thanks for that info!!!
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Re: Yet another overcharging question. 16 volts at idle
[Re: Gusteve]
#353536
06/25/09 07:21 AM
06/25/09 07:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I feel kinda sheepish. After focusing on all the bad-news-what-if stuff, it was the regulator after all. I should have just done the basic test outlined above first. Test the ground to the case, test the 12V+ into the IGN side from the battery.
I'm not one to throw money at parts just to see if it solves a problem, but when I found out a cheap regulator was only about $10 I went for it. For $10 it was worth it. I'll still need to buy a decent 60AMP electronic unit when I replace the alternator with an upgraded one, but the the $10 one can go in the spare parts box.
Thanks for everyone's help. I now feel extremely educated on the rest of the wiring system on my car. I've got other electrical gremlins to chase down, and this experience will help a lot.
I have a feeling I have the same issue. Mine it way up at idle and almost pegs w/ any rpm. I'll check the reg 1st.
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