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Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 70Cuda383] #349933
06/19/09 12:18 AM
06/19/09 12:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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I hate this thing. More fouled plugs. No difference really with the carb rebuild. We did however find that the plugs are getting good spark all the way till it dies, so it looks unlikely that it's a spark issue. We have a couple carb sitting around that we're going to try tomorrow. Even if it runs like crap, but constantly, we will know it is a problem in the carb. I'm not throwing parts at it yet, but I'm getting close.

This doesn't sound like a dirty fuel filter issue does it?

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349934
06/19/09 12:42 AM
06/19/09 12:42 AM
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Posts: 253
Orange County, CA
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Mike H Offline
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Orange County, CA
I had all kinds of weird starting/running problems with my fresh 383 in my Challenger. It was a complete resto. The ECU can cause no end of grief. At first it was a bad box. Then a bad ground at the ECU/firewall (I eventually ran a seperate ground wire to the ECU.) The standard orange and chrome boxes are Chinese junk, the transistors inside are slow and do not put out the output necessary to let the coil reliably do its thing. Even if this isn't the problem, you would probably save yourself some grief by using an FBO ecu/coil/ballast resistor combo.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: Mike H] #349935
06/19/09 12:50 AM
06/19/09 12:50 AM
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Posts: 15,487
Florida
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scratchnfotraction Offline
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I had a slanty that would do that cause of a clogged up filter..full of rust

start out and be going then drop off and die if you gased it

when it stummbled, and you let off and let it coast and slow down it would catch up and go about 1/8 mile and start dieing again

drove it under 30 mph all day but 45-55 was out the window and would die off till slowed down

so yea a dirty filter could cause it, and just cause I could blow through it,didnt mean zip

it was a metal one,I cut open and had a hand full of rust powder and the filter media was clogged full of it

swap on a filter and it ran fine for about a yr and then again it was clogged

scratchin

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349936
06/19/09 01:14 AM
06/19/09 01:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
Why would you even post that?

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Posts: 7,759
So Cal
What do you have for a fuel pump and what is the pressure? When the motor starts crapping out (but way before it's ready to die) pinch the fuel line close and rev the motor once to clean it out and see if it idles ok for a while with the line pinched. Before the motor runs out of fuel release the fuel flow again. See if it wants to crap out, Repeat

Just something to try.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: HealthServices] #349937
06/19/09 03:01 AM
06/19/09 03:01 AM
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Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
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meepmeep70 Offline
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weymouth,mass.
you say "your afraid of what's in your tank after all these years" i would have a new clear filter on it now,also my you say your plugs smelled of gas and wet,probably want to change your oil once you get this solved.sorry if you already knew this.the clear filter may help you on the diagnoses

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: meepmeep70] #349938
06/19/09 10:00 AM
06/19/09 10:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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hi

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: HealthServices] #349939
06/19/09 02:03 PM
06/19/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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Quote:

What do you have for a fuel pump and what is the pressure? When the motor starts crapping out (but way before it's ready to die) pinch the fuel line close and rev the motor once to clean it out and see if it idles ok for a while with the line pinched. Before the motor runs out of fuel release the fuel flow again. See if it wants to crap out, Repeat

Just something to try.




It's a standard carter. No fuel pressure gauge on it, but again, it's getting fuel to the carb.

One issue it had last night is that when I turned it off, the primary boosters kept dribbling fuel. Another is that I have again fouled plugs. No gas smell this time, but definitely carbon-fouled.

Last edited by sharpie; 06/19/09 02:04 PM.
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349940
06/19/09 02:16 PM
06/19/09 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 711
Montana
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Posest Offline
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Montana
Check your fuel pump pressure. Carter carbs do not like fuel pressure. Anything over 6 psi and you are asking for it to bypass the needle and seat. Sounds like a gm I had. Would run with your foot into it but would not idle very long without flooding. I ran into this with 3 chevy engines, one ford and on my 408 with an eddy carb. Just a guess here.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: Posest] #349941
06/19/09 02:19 PM
06/19/09 02:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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err, sorry, it's a carter fuel pump and a Holley 4160.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: HealthServices] #349942
06/19/09 03:05 PM
06/19/09 03:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB Offline
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Quote:

When the motor starts crapping out (but way before it's ready to die) pinch the fuel line close and rev the motor once to clean it out and see if it idles ok for a while with the line pinched. Before the motor runs out of fuel release the fuel flow again. See if it wants to crap out, Repeat




Brian, from the symptoms, it sounds like too much gas is getting dumped into the engine. In the long run, this is not a good thing for the health of the rings, nor the lubricating ability of the oil. Once this problem is resolved, do an oil change pronto.

What Allen is suggesting above has merit as an easy diagnostic tool. If you stop the incoming flow of fuel and the engine can clear out the excess gas and run well for a short time, you have confirmed that fuel is getting past one or both needle valve/seat pairs when it shouldn't be.

At the risk of stating the obvious, consider the function of the needle valves, seats, and floats. The job of the floats is to "float" (duh) on top of the fuel in the bowl. At a preset height, the float presses on the needle valve hard enough so that it "seats" in the seat (double duh) and stops the incoming flow of gas. My educated guess is that this is not happening in your carb. Some of the reasons that spring to mind are:

a. Crazy high fuel pump pressure.
b. Crap in the fuel wedging between the needle valve and seat.
c. Lousy/broken/worn out tip on the needle valve.
d. "Sunk" float. The soldered seams on the brass ones can give out. The phenolic/composite/plastic ones get can get porous over time.



Down to just a blue car now.
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 68HemiB] #349943
06/19/09 04:16 PM
06/19/09 04:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
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Steve, the diagnostic makes sense. I'll try that today definitely.

I did check the needle and seat in my carb when I took it apart. It, and the floats, looked alright. I suspect that when I put the Edelbrock carb onto the car, it'll run. Maybe rich, but it will still run.

If so, I will just have to look more into whether it's a fuel pressure problem (can fix with a regulator), or a carb adjustment or float issue. It makes sense that it's doing this, because now that I think about it, I checked the floats before I ran the engine and set them perfectly, then right after I checked them again and fuel poured out of the sight plug when I opened it.

I will also definitely do an oil change. It is almost time anyway, plus I want to take off the Fram filter that I used for break-in (had it lying around, so it was free).

My next question would be - what made the car run fine for four hours, but then suddenly gain this issue while I was idling?

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349944
06/19/09 11:32 PM
06/19/09 11:32 PM
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Posts: 10,177
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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It may have taken that long for the fuel pump to overcome the float/needle

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: SomeCarGuy] #349945
06/20/09 01:10 AM
06/20/09 01:10 AM
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Posts: 5,037
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sharpie Offline OP
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Well, I 'fixed' it today. I borrowed my friend's Edelbrock 625 or 650 or whatever, slapped it on, fired it up, and it's trouble-free. I know, I know, that's 'parts replacement'. Not helpful. Well, at least now I know it's the carb. I'm going to accumulate some money and look into a Proform metering block (the ported vacuum port on mine is blocked off by a broken tube) and a rebuild kit.

In fact, I have an extra set of fuel bowls with brass floats. I might try them instead of the plastic floats. Anyway, the needles and seats will get replaced as well.

I did notice that the center of the main body that attaches to the metering plate wasn't true, and was bowed inward by about .006 in the center. Maybe that had something to do with everything not working right? I will also stick some carb cleaning pipe cleaner in through every hole.

Just so everyone knows, I'm not giving up on the Holley. I am just glad the issue is resolved.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349946
06/20/09 01:53 AM
06/20/09 01:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 70,126
Here
DirectSubjection Offline
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If you stick with it, I have a rod and spring tuning set around left over from my Olds I'd send you.

i do like the Holleys though, love the 750hp on my Duster.


Ride eternal, shiny and chrome
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349947
06/20/09 08:48 AM
06/20/09 08:48 AM
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Posts: 2,414
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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David_in_St_Croi Offline
top fuel
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St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
Fuel pouring out of the sight plug is a symptom of a float that is adjusted too high or alternatively as mentioned a sunk float. In addition, the fuel dripping after shut off is a symnptom of too high a fuel level in the bowls.

On our 70 RR with a 383 and a Holley 950 vacuum secondary carb it used to act as if it were running out of fuel at the track, when we were doing 1/8th mile. I finally did the obvious, checked the floats, and they were too low. Fixed it and the problem went away and the car will go full throttle to the 1/4 (finally got back to the 1/4). The running out of fuel symptom just showed up as before the car ran fine, so the float levels can change on their own.n It also said to em that they are pretty sensitive to float levels as it was not many flats on the adjusting nut I had to turn.

A check for a sunk float is when you have the carby apart is to take the float and shake it. If you can hear liquid sloshing, the float is leaking.

Good luck!


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Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 68HemiB] #349948
06/20/09 04:29 PM
06/20/09 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,193
Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Omaha Ne
not disagreeing with anything that's been said here but it sounds an awful lot like Vapor lock or boiling fuel in the carb. We have been seeing more and more of this in the shop especially if one is using ethanol based fuels.

If you haven't already checked, when it dies immediately check the spark. it fit's strong and steady I'd go back to the fuel.
We just had a 65 olds this week that has been dealing the owner fits for 6 years. he even put an electric pump on it to try and get around the vapor lock issues. Root cause was found to be a clutch return spring limiting the heat riser butterfly opening. This in turn prevented WOT operation and also would overheat the intake thereby boiling the gas in the lines and carb. Moved the clutch retrain spring and it now runs like it should and hasn't in over 6 years

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349949
06/20/09 05:08 PM
06/20/09 05:08 PM
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Posts: 1,286
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
solarguy Offline
pro stock
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It's a standard carter.





I just had fits using a stock replacement Carter fuel pump. It was some made in malaysia POS in a Carter box. It ran good for about 2 days then started having choking issues. When I put on a clear filter, you could see the lousy flow. I took it off and the pump arm was scortched. I think the casting was off a bit and misaligned the arm. Put on a Carter HP mechanical pump and all is well. Sent the other back to summit for my $$$ back.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349950
06/20/09 05:28 PM
06/20/09 05:28 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,280
Medford OR
FrankenScamp Offline
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Quote:

Well, I 'fixed' it today.




ssswwweeeeeeet! sure they're a pain when they aren't running but once they are you tend to forget about all that.

Now go tear it up some more

Cheers Brian.... see ya @ Jimmy's this year....right?

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349951
06/20/09 10:40 PM
06/20/09 10:40 PM
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Posts: 2,042
Leucadia, Ca.
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vdriver Offline
top fuel
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Leucadia, Ca.
"...fuel poured out of the sight plug when I opened it."

Shouldn't "pour out", should just dribble. Bad or misadjusted float, high fuel pressure..

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