this is the first time it's crapped out, the demon. I had just got off the highway and was sitting at a red light. It suddenly dropped to about 250 rpm and sputtered and died. I tried to start it up but it just cranked and wouldn't fire. I got it to a safe side street (where I am now) and checked it out. I have fuel at the filter and in the carb, but there's a lot of mist coming from the carb. It cranks like a champ but won't start. There's like a distant sputter I can hear, but no start. I checked the coil maybe 15 minutes later, and it's still hot. Overheating coil maybe? Any other thoughts?

Could be the ballast,ign box and I'd suspect the coil last. Good luck with it.

If you can see gas going into carb when you throttle, it probably isn't vapor lock....Although, if it starts after sitting for 30-45 min, I would check routing of your fuel line around the block/exhaust.. Do you have points or Pertronix....???

Alright, I'm safely at work via my MINI, and now I can update a little better. I got AAA to tow, so to the people who will say something about me calling towing first, I did.

There was definitely fuel dripping into the carb venturi, and the carb itself was cold, if you can believe it. So there was no vapor lock from the carb itself, either

I will check ballast first I think. I have an extra one, but what's weird is that the entire ignition system (MP electronic) has maybe 4 hours of driving time on it.

The other weird thing was that if I cranked for about ten seconds, you'd hear a rumble like it really wanted to start. I even got it to start once, but it was at really low RPM. I tried to hold it up by pressing the throttle lever on the carb, and it did something of interest - whenever I left it at idle, it ran (albeit rough), but whenever I pushed the throttle lever back, it would stop combustion.

I just hope I didn't wipe a lobe on the cam

A couple of things to test..

1. A qwikee test of the ballast resistor is just jump it for a very short time..

2. Check the reluctor inside the distributor, sometime the gap is too wide. Works inconsistently, regap it and see what happens.

Just my $0.025...

Check for spark before worrying about the individual components.

If you have spark and fuel, it sounds mechanical. How old are the timing chain/gears?

Okay, that's better. As I said, check for a good spark first.
The three things you need are air/fuel (you say the carb is not hot and there is fuel coming out), spark (there is good stuff on electronic ignitions in the tech section), and compression.
Since the motor is fresh, we will assume at this point that the rings and timing are okay. The part that worries me is the slowing down before dying. That's usually not a sign of an electrical issue, although it can happen. Did the engine get hot, did the oil pressure drop?
When you can check for spark, let us know.

Oil pressure seemed to drop , but I don't know whether that was a consequence of the oil pump not spinning fast enough or whether it was a factor in why it was dying. When I hold the starter for ten seconds, it does have a bit of pressure on the gauge (10lbs maybe?) but it doesn't build to like 40-50lbs. But that doesn't mean much to me - when we started the motor for the first time, it didn't show oil pressure building, but when it's on, it's had 75lbs cold and 40-50lbs hot like clockwork.

The engine didn't get that warm overall, and never overheated before this happened.

I am going to check for spark and change the oil tonight.

Do you have a chrome coil? and is it mounted on the intake manifold?

Same thing happened to me and it was the chrome coil that gave out. it was really hot, and I understand the chrome ones tend to hold in the heat.
I don't use the chrome ones anymore. I always carry spare resistors, ECU, and a coil along with a bag of tools of course.

I had a similar problem recently and it was the coil.

Hey Brian - I just saw this thread. As sort of already stated before:

a. Immediate diagnosis is checking for fuel and spark. If not present, or in insufficient quantity/quality, chase those things.

b. IFF (obscure nerdy acronym, not a typo) all the stuff in a. pans out, THEN worry about the scary stuff (timing chain, cam lobes, etc) and dig deeper with a compression test.

The coil is a Pertronix epoxy-filled coil. Also new. I was told it would work as it's mounted sideways and on the intake manifold. Maybe it's getting too hot. Am I correct in thinking that if it was the coil overheating, I should be able to go home and it will have spark and start, right?

If I go home and don't have spark, I guess I could get the coil checked and then look into everything else.

Steve, I am positive I have fuel. I have fuel dripping from the boosters when I open the butterflies. I am however not positive I have spark, so that's what I will check first.

Thanks everyone!

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm mostly impressed that though Sharpie's 20th century technology ridin relic broke down, this guy's using up to the minute 21st century technology (Laptop?), and is posting to us members From The Side Of The Road!

Kudos!

but what else would he have to do waitin on the tow truck?

bet he used a cell phone to call AAA

or did you send them an e mail?

I am with you there sharpie,butterflys all in the stomich over what all could be bad wrong..

thats a very short run time for a prob to show up

good luck and keep us posted



scratchin

A couple other things to check. You mentioned "mist coming from the carb" and "fuel dripping from the venturi".

Check the float operation on your carb. A stuck or misadjusted float can result in raw gas being dumped in the engine and killing it. This is flooding at an extreme and can make restarting very hard for a long period of time.

My brother once flooded his engine with a bad carb. Replace the carb and it would barely run. Ended up the plugs were too gas fouled to start, even a couple days later. New plugs and the problem was gone.

I'll check the carb, though I am pretty sure it's alright. The floats got adjusted a couple weeks ago to where it should be. Further, this was so sudden that it began to die that unless they happened to just suddenly misalign, it wouldn't seem like a float problem.

But I will definitely check everything.

Now, I'm almost certain it's the coil. You have to use their proprietary coil with the Ignitor I and II or -- if you're using another brand of coil -- to have a resistor in line. Do you have the rest of the Pertronix set up installed ?

I am actually just using the pertronix coil with the MP resistor, ignition module, and electronic distributor. No other Pertronix stuff.

You my not have enough voltage at the coil. You can try a "loaded" voltage test just to see what you have at the coil. I assume you have access to a multi-meter. Ground the NEG side of the coil to the block with #10 wire/alligator clips. Connect the Red/POS clip of the MM to POS post on the coil. Connect the Black/NEG clip of the MM to ground. Turn key to run position and observe the voltage.

For reference, I had 4.6V at the coil trying to run a ballast resistor and the Pertronix coil. That's not going to get it done.

Sorry if you know how to do a loaded voltage test already, others may not.

I just read this but sounds just like when ones running out of gas idled rough then died when accelerated?, (boosters dripping fuel when you opened butterflies?)if you mean squirters it really sounds like lack of fuel dont ask how i know. but yes fuel and fire first.doesnt sound mechanical to me.

I wouldn't worry about it being something big at this point. 4 hours run time isn't very long, and gremlins can take some time to flush out. Could be as easy as something loose that worked on out in the run time.

I had a slow to a stop deal a few weeks back. It was the VR. I also heard a real loud pop when it fully died. Do you have voltage in the rest of the car?

Alright, I am back and with some long-winded updates. Bear with me.

I got home this afternoon from work, and immediately jumped in the car and tried to start it. I cranked on the starter for a good three seconds, and it still didn't start. Cranked like a champ, but no start.

Then my neighbors came around to help. I had one crank on the starter while I held the coil wire out of the distributor and near a ground. It arced, I got a nice shock, so I knew I had spark. We then tested the voltage at the coil, and came up with approximately 8-9v, while the resistor had 12v on its hot side.

I then pulled the plugs. HIGHLY carbon-fouled, and reeked of gasoline. I'm not sure if they reeked of gasoline because I completely doused them with gas trying to get the car moving this morning or not, but they smelled of gas and looked of charcoal.

I put new plugs in and hooked this fancy old contraption (read: test light) up between a spark plug wire and the plug itself. Then I cranked the starter and it arced inside the contraption.

So from here, I know I have:

12v to the resistor
9v to the coil
spark to the distributor
spark to the spark plugs
good new gapped (.040) plugs
fuel is spraying into the carb when the butterflies open up


Larry (MrBelvedere2 on Moparts) comes over, and we try to start it again, and it starts up without issue. We let it run, and it sounds a bit rough, so we put the vacuum gauge on it. I lean it out and it sounds better and is at 15" of vacuum, so I lean it to the point that it gets rough, and then turn it 1/2-turn richer. It idles fine, and as we're congratulating ourselves, right in front of us, not thirty seconds from finishing the adjustments, the car sputters and dies. It runs strong for the 20-25 seconds that it's idling, then slowly dies. It takes maybe 5 seconds to die, and during this time, it loses about half its RPM. I will have to have Larry corroborate the sound it made, but to me, it sounded like the engine was gasping and trying to breathe as it died. It didn't sound like the 'knocking' sound you get when you run out of gas.

So we then thought it might be the carb. Maybe something's stuck in the idle air bleeds or something? Anyway, so I took my entire carb apart (Holley 4160), cleaned it with brake cleaner (half of which I got in my eyes), and then blew it out with compressed air. I also checked the power valve by sucking on the large end, and it was able to pull the diaphragm and the spring/metal piece inward and hold it there. So the power valve seems to be good.

I finished too late to try to start it again, so I will test it with the cleaned carb tomorrow. If anyone has any other tests that I can do, or has any other ideas or advice, please post them. I'm kind of frustrated and really lost at this point.

What gets me is, the damn car runs fine for a little bit. And it ran fine before this morning. It just suddenly took a turn for the worse, and I can't find what's causing it.

Thanks for listening, and again, any information is appreciated.

Bad ECU box

or

bad ground to the ECU.

Try a new box and run a dedicated ground to it to rule that out and prevent problems down the road.

Might get by just cleaning the box back and the firewall with some sandpaper.

The ECU can do some wierd s*** sometimes.

the ECU (orange box) or the voltage regulator?

Before replacing any parts check to see if you have spark when the no start condition exists... Going through the carb without having pinpointed the problem was a nice effort but useless... Diagnose it don't be another parts swapper...

Have you checked the fuel system and looked at the filter.

John

i agree with the others, sound like an ecu ignition problem. if you have a fuel pressure gauge have you checked it while it was running? just thinking if the pressure has got too high it would flood the carb.

I vote for it flooding out. possibly junk in one of the needle-seats. You will probably have to remove all the spark plugs and dry them out before you gat it started again. remember to check the rear floats, needle-seats of the carb to.
I think this because of the way you describe it dies.

silly things happen...remove your gas cap.

Be happy the coondition is present often enough to diagnose and fix! It's those "every two weeks after driving 50 miles at 65" that can make you drink!
Before you install the carb, check the plug's condition. Install the carb and run it again. Be ready to look down the carb when it acts up (flooding?), and have the MM connected to the coil to see if the input changes. If the carb isn't flooding and the voltage doesn't crop, it's most likely going to be the coil or ECU or ECU ground.

Also be happy it isn't the expensive internal stuff!

I don't know if this will help, but explaining all symptoms to the best of my knowledge might give someone a hint. While it's dying, if I increase the RPM to say over 1000RPM, the car will not die. In fact, once you let it go back to idle by taking pressure off of the throttle linkage, it will idle alright for a second or two, but then start its slow death over again.

That ultra unreliable MP orange ignition box is the primary suspect imo. Get a $20 cheapie from Kragen and keep it around as a spare. I've gone thru two MP boxes, but the cheap rusted leftover china box always works. I don't use the MP ignition boxes anymore, too unreliable. I don't like having to call a tow truck...

Quote:

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Might get by just cleaning the box back and the firewall with some sandpaper.

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SAND his firewall...he just got it painted.

Yeah, I don't actually mind sanding it, and I'd probably sand it just enough to ground. Does the ECU ground through its box or does it use one of the wiring harness grounds (i.e. coil connection)?

Also, I wonder if the ECU is going bad because it's laying on the inner fenderwell instead of being vertical on the firewall? I heard the connections might get problematic, but I thought it'd take a while for the connections to fail because of water-log or corrosion.

Anyway, I will do a loaded voltage test this evening, as well as hooking a MM to the coil and letting it idle till it dies (if it dies).

I do have a pretty dirty fuel filter. I wonder if that is maybe restricting fuel flow? But I adjusted the floats and the level of fuel seemed to be reactive

Also, is it a problem to run two fuel filters - one before the pump and one after? I am scared of what's in my fuel tank from all those years.

But I also know the tank is venting fine. Is the fuel cap vent the same thing, or does it need to vent from the fuel cap and the tank?

if the tank has a vent, then it shouldn't need a vented cap, unless you're pulling more fuel out of the tank than what the vent can let in, but that is highly unlikely...you'd have to be at WOT, 7500 rpm, for like...5 minutes for that to be your problem.

I hate this thing. More fouled plugs. No difference really with the carb rebuild. We did however find that the plugs are getting good spark all the way till it dies, so it looks unlikely that it's a spark issue. We have a couple carb sitting around that we're going to try tomorrow. Even if it runs like crap, but constantly, we will know it is a problem in the carb. I'm not throwing parts at it yet, but I'm getting close.

This doesn't sound like a dirty fuel filter issue does it?

I had all kinds of weird starting/running problems with my fresh 383 in my Challenger. It was a complete resto. The ECU can cause no end of grief. At first it was a bad box. Then a bad ground at the ECU/firewall (I eventually ran a seperate ground wire to the ECU.) The standard orange and chrome boxes are Chinese junk, the transistors inside are slow and do not put out the output necessary to let the coil reliably do its thing. Even if this isn't the problem, you would probably save yourself some grief by using an FBO ecu/coil/ballast resistor combo.

I had a slanty that would do that cause of a clogged up filter..full of rust

start out and be going then drop off and die if you gased it

when it stummbled, and you let off and let it coast and slow down it would catch up and go about 1/8 mile and start dieing again

drove it under 30 mph all day but 45-55 was out the window and would die off till slowed down

so yea a dirty filter could cause it, and just cause I could blow through it,didnt mean zip

it was a metal one,I cut open and had a hand full of rust powder and the filter media was clogged full of it

swap on a filter and it ran fine for about a yr and then again it was clogged

scratchin

What do you have for a fuel pump and what is the pressure? When the motor starts crapping out (but way before it's ready to die) pinch the fuel line close and rev the motor once to clean it out and see if it idles ok for a while with the line pinched. Before the motor runs out of fuel release the fuel flow again. See if it wants to crap out, Repeat

Just something to try.

you say "your afraid of what's in your tank after all these years" i would have a new clear filter on it now,also my you say your plugs smelled of gas and wet,probably want to change your oil once you get this solved.sorry if you already knew this.the clear filter may help you on the diagnoses

Check your fuel pump pressure. Carter carbs do not like fuel pressure. Anything over 6 psi and you are asking for it to bypass the needle and seat. Sounds like a gm I had. Would run with your foot into it but would not idle very long without flooding. I ran into this with 3 chevy engines, one ford and on my 408 with an eddy carb. Just a guess here.

err, sorry, it's a carter fuel pump and a Holley 4160.

Steve, the diagnostic makes sense. I'll try that today definitely.

I did check the needle and seat in my carb when I took it apart. It, and the floats, looked alright. I suspect that when I put the Edelbrock carb onto the car, it'll run. Maybe rich, but it will still run.

If so, I will just have to look more into whether it's a fuel pressure problem (can fix with a regulator), or a carb adjustment or float issue. It makes sense that it's doing this, because now that I think about it, I checked the floats before I ran the engine and set them perfectly, then right after I checked them again and fuel poured out of the sight plug when I opened it.

I will also definitely do an oil change. It is almost time anyway, plus I want to take off the Fram filter that I used for break-in (had it lying around, so it was free).

My next question would be - what made the car run fine for four hours, but then suddenly gain this issue while I was idling?

It may have taken that long for the fuel pump to overcome the float/needle

Well, I 'fixed' it today. I borrowed my friend's Edelbrock 625 or 650 or whatever, slapped it on, fired it up, and it's trouble-free. I know, I know, that's 'parts replacement'. Not helpful. Well, at least now I know it's the carb. I'm going to accumulate some money and look into a Proform metering block (the ported vacuum port on mine is blocked off by a broken tube) and a rebuild kit.

In fact, I have an extra set of fuel bowls with brass floats. I might try them instead of the plastic floats. Anyway, the needles and seats will get replaced as well.

I did notice that the center of the main body that attaches to the metering plate wasn't true, and was bowed inward by about .006 in the center. Maybe that had something to do with everything not working right? I will also stick some carb cleaning pipe cleaner in through every hole.

Just so everyone knows, I'm not giving up on the Holley. I am just glad the issue is resolved.

If you stick with it, I have a rod and spring tuning set around left over from my Olds I'd send you.

i do like the Holleys though, love the 750hp on my Duster.

Fuel pouring out of the sight plug is a symptom of a float that is adjusted too high or alternatively as mentioned a sunk float. In addition, the fuel dripping after shut off is a symnptom of too high a fuel level in the bowls.

On our 70 RR with a 383 and a Holley 950 vacuum secondary carb it used to act as if it were running out of fuel at the track, when we were doing 1/8th mile. I finally did the obvious, checked the floats, and they were too low. Fixed it and the problem went away and the car will go full throttle to the 1/4 (finally got back to the 1/4). The running out of fuel symptom just showed up as before the car ran fine, so the float levels can change on their own.n It also said to em that they are pretty sensitive to float levels as it was not many flats on the adjusting nut I had to turn.

A check for a sunk float is when you have the carby apart is to take the float and shake it. If you can hear liquid sloshing, the float is leaking.

Good luck!

not disagreeing with anything that's been said here but it sounds an awful lot like Vapor lock or boiling fuel in the carb. We have been seeing more and more of this in the shop especially if one is using ethanol based fuels.

If you haven't already checked, when it dies immediately check the spark. it fit's strong and steady I'd go back to the fuel.
We just had a 65 olds this week that has been dealing the owner fits for 6 years. he even put an electric pump on it to try and get around the vapor lock issues. Root cause was found to be a clutch return spring limiting the heat riser butterfly opening. This in turn prevented WOT operation and also would overheat the intake thereby boiling the gas in the lines and carb. Moved the clutch retrain spring and it now runs like it should and hasn't in over 6 years

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It's a standard carter.

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I just had fits using a stock replacement Carter fuel pump. It was some made in malaysia POS in a Carter box. It ran good for about 2 days then started having choking issues. When I put on a clear filter, you could see the lousy flow. I took it off and the pump arm was scortched. I think the casting was off a bit and misaligned the arm. Put on a Carter HP mechanical pump and all is well. Sent the other back to summit for my $$$ back.

"...fuel poured out of the sight plug when I opened it."

Shouldn't "pour out", should just dribble. Bad or misadjusted float, high fuel pressure..