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Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 64Post] #349913
06/17/09 07:05 PM
06/17/09 07:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
Moparts Linguist
sharpie  Offline OP
Moparts Linguist

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
I am actually just using the pertronix coil with the MP resistor, ignition module, and electronic distributor. No other Pertronix stuff.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349914
06/17/09 07:23 PM
06/17/09 07:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
master
64Post  Offline
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
You my not have enough voltage at the coil. You can try a "loaded" voltage test just to see what you have at the coil. I assume you have access to a multi-meter. Ground the NEG side of the coil to the block with #10 wire/alligator clips. Connect the Red/POS clip of the MM to POS post on the coil. Connect the Black/NEG clip of the MM to ground. Turn key to run position and observe the voltage.

For reference, I had 4.6V at the coil trying to run a ballast resistor and the Pertronix coil. That's not going to get it done.

Sorry if you know how to do a loaded voltage test already, others may not.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 64Post] #349915
06/17/09 08:15 PM
06/17/09 08:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 228
northeast texas
S
strokin73cuda Offline
enthusiast
strokin73cuda  Offline
enthusiast
S

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 228
northeast texas
I just read this but sounds just like when ones running out of gas idled rough then died when accelerated?, (boosters dripping fuel when you opened butterflies?)if you mean squirters it really sounds like lack of fuel dont ask how i know. but yes fuel and fire first.doesnt sound mechanical to me.


496 stroker,Indy srs , new best 6.87 @ 98 1.46 60'
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: strokin73cuda] #349916
06/17/09 08:48 PM
06/17/09 08:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
I Live Here
SomeCarGuy  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
I wouldn't worry about it being something big at this point. 4 hours run time isn't very long, and gremlins can take some time to flush out. Could be as easy as something loose that worked on out in the run time.

I had a slow to a stop deal a few weeks back. It was the VR. I also heard a real loud pop when it fully died. Do you have voltage in the rest of the car?


I want my fair share
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: SomeCarGuy] #349917
06/18/09 02:13 AM
06/18/09 02:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
Moparts Linguist
sharpie  Offline OP
Moparts Linguist

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Posts: 5,037
hi
Alright, I am back and with some long-winded updates. Bear with me.

I got home this afternoon from work, and immediately jumped in the car and tried to start it. I cranked on the starter for a good three seconds, and it still didn't start. Cranked like a champ, but no start.

Then my neighbors came around to help. I had one crank on the starter while I held the coil wire out of the distributor and near a ground. It arced, I got a nice shock, so I knew I had spark. We then tested the voltage at the coil, and came up with approximately 8-9v, while the resistor had 12v on its hot side.

I then pulled the plugs. HIGHLY carbon-fouled, and reeked of gasoline. I'm not sure if they reeked of gasoline because I completely doused them with gas trying to get the car moving this morning or not, but they smelled of gas and looked of charcoal.

I put new plugs in and hooked this fancy old contraption (read: test light) up between a spark plug wire and the plug itself. Then I cranked the starter and it arced inside the contraption.

So from here, I know I have:

12v to the resistor
9v to the coil
spark to the distributor
spark to the spark plugs
good new gapped (.040) plugs
fuel is spraying into the carb when the butterflies open up


Larry (MrBelvedere2 on Moparts) comes over, and we try to start it again, and it starts up without issue. We let it run, and it sounds a bit rough, so we put the vacuum gauge on it. I lean it out and it sounds better and is at 15" of vacuum, so I lean it to the point that it gets rough, and then turn it 1/2-turn richer. It idles fine, and as we're congratulating ourselves, right in front of us, not thirty seconds from finishing the adjustments, the car sputters and dies. It runs strong for the 20-25 seconds that it's idling, then slowly dies. It takes maybe 5 seconds to die, and during this time, it loses about half its RPM. I will have to have Larry corroborate the sound it made, but to me, it sounded like the engine was gasping and trying to breathe as it died. It didn't sound like the 'knocking' sound you get when you run out of gas.

So we then thought it might be the carb. Maybe something's stuck in the idle air bleeds or something? Anyway, so I took my entire carb apart (Holley 4160), cleaned it with brake cleaner (half of which I got in my eyes), and then blew it out with compressed air. I also checked the power valve by sucking on the large end, and it was able to pull the diaphragm and the spring/metal piece inward and hold it there. So the power valve seems to be good.

I finished too late to try to start it again, so I will test it with the cleaned carb tomorrow. If anyone has any other tests that I can do, or has any other ideas or advice, please post them. I'm kind of frustrated and really lost at this point.

What gets me is, the damn car runs fine for a little bit. And it ran fine before this morning. It just suddenly took a turn for the worse, and I can't find what's causing it.

Thanks for listening, and again, any information is appreciated.

Last edited by sharpie; 06/18/09 02:26 AM.
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349918
06/18/09 02:19 AM
06/18/09 02:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
I Live Here
SomeCarGuy  Offline
I Live Here
S

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
Bad ECU box

or

bad ground to the ECU.

Try a new box and run a dedicated ground to it to rule that out and prevent problems down the road.

Might get by just cleaning the box back and the firewall with some sandpaper.

The ECU can do some wierd s*** sometimes.


I want my fair share
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: SomeCarGuy] #349919
06/18/09 02:26 AM
06/18/09 02:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
Moparts Linguist
sharpie  Offline OP
Moparts Linguist

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Posts: 5,037
hi
the ECU (orange box) or the voltage regulator?

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: SomeCarGuy] #349920
06/18/09 06:49 AM
06/18/09 06:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
R
rockerbob Offline
mopar
rockerbob  Offline
mopar
R

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 583
Raleigh, NC
Quote:

Bad ECU box

or

bad ground to the ECU.

Try a new box and run a dedicated ground to it to rule that out and prevent problems down the road.

Might get by just cleaning the box back and the firewall with some sandpaper.

The ECU can do some wierd s*** sometimes.






2005 Dakota 4X4 3.7 2004 Rumble Bee 5.7 1978 Diplomat 318 1969 Satellite 318 "bracket racer" 1966 Barracuda (in progress ) 1964 Dodge 330 (future race project) 1962 Belvedere (HUM????)
Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: rockerbob] #349921
06/18/09 06:54 AM
06/18/09 06:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT Offline
Management Trainee
1_WILD_RT  Offline
Management Trainee

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
Before replacing any parts check to see if you have spark when the no start condition exists... Going through the carb without having pinpointed the problem was a nice effort but useless... Diagnose it don't be another parts swapper...

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #349922
06/18/09 07:05 AM
06/18/09 07:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,264
Michigan
6
6T4 Polara Offline
pro stock
6T4 Polara  Offline
pro stock
6

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,264
Michigan
Have you checked the fuel system and looked at the filter.

John

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 6T4 Polara] #349923
06/18/09 09:48 AM
06/18/09 09:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,027
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
master
mopar dave  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,027
Mt Morris Michigan
i agree with the others, sound like an ecu ignition problem. if you have a fuel pressure gauge have you checked it while it was running? just thinking if the pressure has got too high it would flood the carb.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 6T4 Polara] #349924
06/18/09 09:51 AM
06/18/09 09:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 589
Fortworth TX
M
mod5v Offline
mopar
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M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 589
Fortworth TX
I vote for it flooding out. possibly junk in one of the needle-seats. You will probably have to remove all the spark plugs and dry them out before you gat it started again. remember to check the rear floats, needle-seats of the carb to.
I think this because of the way you describe it dies.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 6T4 Polara] #349925
06/18/09 10:02 AM
06/18/09 10:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 683
CENTRAL MINN
1965_PLYMOUTH Offline
mopar
1965_PLYMOUTH  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 683
CENTRAL MINN
silly things happen...remove your gas cap.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 1965_PLYMOUTH] #349926
06/18/09 10:37 AM
06/18/09 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
I Live Here

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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
Be happy the coondition is present often enough to diagnose and fix! It's those "every two weeks after driving 50 miles at 65" that can make you drink!
Before you install the carb, check the plug's condition. Install the carb and run it again. Be ready to look down the carb when it acts up (flooding?), and have the MM connected to the coil to see if the input changes. If the carb isn't flooding and the voltage doesn't crop, it's most likely going to be the coil or ECU or ECU ground.

Also be happy it isn't the expensive internal stuff!

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: RodStRace] #349927
06/18/09 11:37 AM
06/18/09 11:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
Moparts Linguist
sharpie  Offline OP
Moparts Linguist

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
I don't know if this will help, but explaining all symptoms to the best of my knowledge might give someone a hint. While it's dying, if I increase the RPM to say over 1000RPM, the car will not die. In fact, once you let it go back to idle by taking pressure off of the throttle linkage, it will idle alright for a second or two, but then start its slow death over again.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349928
06/18/09 01:04 PM
06/18/09 01:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
L
Lefty Offline
master
Lefty  Offline
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L

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
That ultra unreliable MP orange ignition box is the primary suspect imo. Get a $20 cheapie from Kragen and keep it around as a spare. I've gone thru two MP boxes, but the cheap rusted leftover china box always works. I don't use the MP ignition boxes anymore, too unreliable. I don't like having to call a tow truck...

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: 1965_PLYMOUTH] #349929
06/18/09 01:40 PM
06/18/09 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,842
Witness Protection Program
Kudakidd Offline
master
Kudakidd  Offline
master

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Posts: 7,842
Witness Protection Program
Quote:

silly things happen...remove your gas cap.




He's got a point. If that's supposed to be a vented gas tank, you better make sure you have a vented gas cap.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: SomeCarGuy] #349930
06/18/09 01:53 PM
06/18/09 01:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,358
Iowa
burdar Offline
Owen's Dad
burdar  Offline
Owen's Dad

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,358
Iowa
Quote:

Might get by just cleaning the box back and the firewall with some sandpaper.





SAND his firewall...he just got it painted.

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: burdar] #349931
06/18/09 06:13 PM
06/18/09 06:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
sharpie Offline OP
Moparts Linguist
sharpie  Offline OP
Moparts Linguist

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,037
hi
Yeah, I don't actually mind sanding it, and I'd probably sand it just enough to ground. Does the ECU ground through its box or does it use one of the wiring harness grounds (i.e. coil connection)?

Also, I wonder if the ECU is going bad because it's laying on the inner fenderwell instead of being vertical on the firewall? I heard the connections might get problematic, but I thought it'd take a while for the connections to fail because of water-log or corrosion.

Anyway, I will do a loaded voltage test this evening, as well as hooking a MM to the coil and letting it idle till it dies (if it dies).

I do have a pretty dirty fuel filter. I wonder if that is maybe restricting fuel flow? But I adjusted the floats and the level of fuel seemed to be reactive

Also, is it a problem to run two fuel filters - one before the pump and one after? I am scared of what's in my fuel tank from all those years.

But I also know the tank is venting fine. Is the fuel cap vent the same thing, or does it need to vent from the fuel cap and the tank?

Re: Stuck on side of the road [Re: sharpie] #349932
06/18/09 06:54 PM
06/18/09 06:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383 Offline
Too Many Posts
70Cuda383  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
if the tank has a vent, then it shouldn't need a vented cap, unless you're pulling more fuel out of the tank than what the vent can let in, but that is highly unlikely...you'd have to be at WOT, 7500 rpm, for like...5 minutes for that to be your problem.


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