Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
#342908
06/09/09 11:43 PM
06/09/09 11:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571 Western NC
68Bullit
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571
Western NC
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Been looking on the affordable fuel injection site and been thinking about a FI conversion for the Charger. Just getting a little tired of tuning carbs, and all of the problems that carbs have while fuel injection is turn key and go. Not to mention rich idles and eyes watering, etc http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/store.php?crn=214Would this complete Mopar kit give me everything needed, or are there intake mods that need to take place? I have a Weiand Stealth dual plane on a mild 360. Would TBI be okay or is MPFI better? Thanks
Last edited by 68Bullit; 06/10/09 12:52 AM.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342911
06/10/09 09:52 AM
06/10/09 09:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571 Western NC
68Bullit
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OP
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Quote:
"Been looking on the affordable fuel injection" No such thing. For the cost of the EFI set up you could have a nice big block in the car. You think carbs are hard to set-up, try messing with the computer, bungs, sensors involved for EFI, not to mention the fab work...unless you buy a Mopar pre-fab kit and those are $$$$$$$.
What exactly needs to be done for fabrication? I thought that unit was already set up for bolt-on to a SB Mopar application.....
And how much do you think it would be, total cost? What would you pay for a "nice big block?"
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: 68Bullit]
#342914
06/10/09 10:13 AM
06/10/09 10:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
"Been looking on the affordable fuel injection" No such thing. For the cost of the EFI set up you could have a nice big block in the car. You think carbs are hard to set-up, try messing with the computer, bungs, sensors involved for EFI, not to mention the fab work...unless you buy a Mopar pre-fab kit and those are $$$$$$$.
What exactly needs to be done for fabrication? I thought that unit was already set up for bolt-on to a SB Mopar application.....
And how much do you think it would be, total cost? What would you pay for a "nice big block?"
I'd guess you'd have around $2500 into the system and that's if you can do most of the work yourself. Now if you want to go w/ an old school Holley Pro-jection that's abot $1200. You could sell your 360 and get into a nice big block for around 3k. It's not like you can just slap on t he injection rails, injectors and go. You have multipul sensors, electronics and a computer to install. I'd think if you want to go injected I'd grab a complete system off a 360 magnum and go form there.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342915
06/10/09 12:08 PM
06/10/09 12:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
... Just getting a little tired of tuning carbs, and all of the problems that carbs have ...
Quote:
For the cost of the EFI set up you could have a nice big block in the car.
So how does buying a new bigblock solve carburetor problems???
The Affordable kit is a GM ECU and TB. I'll speak in some generalities here: The 'standard' kit includes teh 305/350-sized TB, which is good for about 250 HP of airflow. The stock 454 TB and injectors (which they list for the 'over 360 kit') will be limited to maybe 300-325 hp based on the throttle body and injectors they use. They reprogam the chip to match the engine specs you give them. If you mod your engine too much, it may no longer perform as well. Sure, you could then adjust fuel pressure and put some specially-sized resistors on the sensors to trick the ECU, but personally I'd rather have one I could tune via a laptop.
As mentioned, Megasquirt (MS) is a good item for those that want to tune their own, or want near-infinite flexibility if they ever modify their engine down the road. MS (and probably the others, too) allow ECU 'learning' via wideband O2 sensor (that is above/beyond mere closed-loop corrections!). Try that with your carburetor! MS will allow you to control spark if you want, too – you could do fuel first and spark later (or vise versa).
Setting up the hardware, whether it be TBI or port EFI, depends on your budget, HP target and how much you are willing to do yourself. Low HP systems have lots more options (like the TBI or the Magnum beerbarrel) while higher HP gets more expensive (as usual).
68Bullit - I'm gonna PM you some info...
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Fury Fan]
#342916
06/10/09 12:21 PM
06/10/09 12:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 411 Texas
vynn3
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 411
Texas
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Quote:
So how does buying a new bigblock solve carburetor problems???
That was my thought...?
vm
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Fury Fan]
#342917
06/10/09 12:23 PM
06/10/09 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
... Just getting a little tired of tuning carbs, and all of the problems that carbs have ...
Quote:
For the cost of the EFI set up you could have a nice big block in the car.
So how does buying a new bigblock solve carburetor problems???
it doesn't but thinking you can just throw a EFi set-up together and start driving isn't logical. Plus all b-bodys should have big blocks.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342918
06/10/09 12:56 PM
06/10/09 12:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,122 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,122
Grand Haven, MI
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another vendor who seems to know what he's doing with the GM TBI/TPI system: http://customefis.com/he's modded GM computers to be able to use a flash chip, that allows for tuning on the fly, and doesn't require a chip burner.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: patrick]
#342919
06/10/09 01:31 PM
06/10/09 01:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,252 IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,252
IL
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In the process of tuning my FAST sequential system now on my Fury (Classic FAST, not XFI). I farmed out the intake conversion but did all the other work myself in my garage. It's very doable, but you need to devote some serious time to it. I have not had much chance to drive/tune the car (4 month old baby), but it's going to take some time to get it so I can do more than go around the block. Depending on where you live, you can pay to have tuning done of course. I bought my stuff used or very good deal new over several years and pulled some favors on the fab work. IMO it's much easier to get a carb working correctly, but I'm working towards other long range goals with mine.
70 Sport Fury 68 Charger 69 Coronet 72 RR
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342920
06/10/09 01:43 PM
06/10/09 01:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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master
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Indiana
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Quote:
So how does buying a new bigblock solve carburetor problems???
Quote:
it doesn't but thinking you can just throw a EFi set-up together and start driving isn't logical. Plus all b-bodys should have big blocks.
x2 on the bigblock!
Yes, EFI will take a bit of tweaking, just like most any other bolt-on-part shakedown. Probably more tweaking, but tweaking can be far faster, and if done via laptop can be done any time you drive the car, without opening the hood.
One HUGE benefit I see to EFI, though, is that it is far faster and easier to make fueling/spark changes than with a carb. If you have the knowledge/experience to know what an engine needs, it is easier to modify the system than with a carb (if you're computer savvy, anyway). No rods, jets, air bleeds, choke adjustments, distributor curves – all are changed electronically (some of them while you drive!).
I have a wideband O2 gauge on one of my carbureted cars. I can tell where/when it is lean/rich, but even the smoothest tune is a compromise somewhere, either in MPG or HP or idle quality. It also loves more timing advance when cold, but fights against it when hot. I use an MSD Timing Computer with to handle that, but that’s a crude compromise, too. With EFI it's adjusted via intake air and coolant temp parameters.
Yes, it can be pretty straightforward to slap on a carb and get to work, but there's no learning or envelope-pushing involved there.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: 68Bullit]
#342921
06/10/09 01:46 PM
06/10/09 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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My web site has some generic EFI information and system comparisons about EFI systems. Check it out. www.fastmanefi.comI also have been selling the EZ-EFI system and I have some comments about how they are doing.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Jerry]
#342924
06/10/09 03:57 PM
06/10/09 03:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253 Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
in reality it would be cheaper to pay a competent carb tuner to tune what you have than it will be to install and tune an EFI setup.
Mega dittos to THIS !
And maybe get a carb that is as close to FI as you can get ... a Plastic Fantastic aka ThermoQuad !!
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: 68Bullit]
#342929
06/10/09 08:34 PM
06/10/09 08:34 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522 Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
Wedgeman
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522
Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
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I just got a good running 5.9l from a '94 truck at the scrap yard....600$ computer included,50 $ alternator, the fuel pump 75$, put it in my '67 Barracuda, few buck more for feul injection lines....and a serpentine strap 45$ ..and turn great !! No watery eyes !
Runs strong too..
Daniel
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Wedgeman]
#342930
06/10/09 08:45 PM
06/10/09 08:45 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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I fought with a carb I had for a couple of months, and finally gave up and sent it in to Quick Fuel. What I got back was so close right out of the box its not funny. I dropped 1 jet size on the front, and went up on the front squirter a couple of sizes, and that was it. No dyno needed, no specialty stuff, just one phone call and some shipping costs, and bingo!
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Jerry]
#342932
06/11/09 12:45 AM
06/11/09 12:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571 Western NC
68Bullit
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OP
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Jerry, Thanks for trying to help me out but I don't see any more improvement out of my Holley. Here are the things that I've checked so far. Idle transition slots are good and not over-exposed. Outer air bleeds are .075 No pulling or any tension against the throttle arm whenever the linkage is disconnected. Float levels have been checked and adjusted, then double checked again. I've checked over quite a bit at the advice of AED Specialties, and from the help of the kind folks here on Moparts. My condition with the carb is probably no different than others are having with their carbs, and again, this 750DP runs really good and seems to be tuned very nicely, and is quite streetable for such a performance carb, but I don't wanna smell it anymore. It might be an odor described by others as normal or tolerable, as Holley's are always said to be traditionally rich to begin with, and I've smelled other carbureted cars that smell very similar to mine. That and I just can't get over the nice black smudges of unburnt fuel that it throws down behind the exhaust tips with each cold start up. Carbs are so inefficient, and now that summer is here, I can look forward to all the fuel percolation and hot start issues as last year only now WITH a wooden spacer in place, AND an insulated fuel line. I'm gonna have to see some big improvements to make me want to keep the carb over experimenting with some EFI
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Jerry]
#342934
06/11/09 08:26 AM
06/11/09 08:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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"Carbs are so inefficient, and now that summer is here, I can look forward to all the fuel percolation and hot start issues as last year only now WITH a wooden spacer in place, AND an insulated fuel line".
I live in Md, we have 90+ days all summer. I have never had any of these problems. If you carb is rich it means it isn't adjusted right. I ran a 750DP on a mild 340 and had no problems or the raw gas smell. It's all in how you set it up. And like mentioned above, timing has a lot to do with as does cam specs. I found the 340 ran best w/ 28 squirters, 6.5 PV, 74-80 jets and I can't remember how many turns in or out. I just adjusted until I had the best vacuum reading, then set the timing and re-adjusted for best vacuum. Make sure your secondary flaps are shut...alll the way.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342935
06/11/09 08:40 AM
06/11/09 08:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253 Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
"Carbs are so inefficient,
As compared to MPFI ? .. ain't that the truth !! ... but until some company comes out with a system that is straight-forward and reasonably priced - not a whole lot people will be going in that direction.
LOTS of people have talked about this topic on the 'net and the HORROR stories about probs that never can be solved and customer-service from some companies that is an equal horror-show after spending many thousands of dollars.....
I say NO THANKS.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: dIc dOc Deity !]
#342936
06/11/09 09:17 AM
06/11/09 09:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
"Carbs are so inefficient,
As compared to MPFI ? .. ain't that the truth !! ... but until some company comes out with a system that is straight-forward and reasonably priced - not a whole lot people will be going in that direction.
LOTS of people have talked about this topic on the 'net and the HORROR stories about probs that never can be solved and customer-service from some companies that is an equal horror-show after spending many thousands of dollars.....
I say NO THANKS.
I don't know I managed to get 17mpg in my 340 swinger w/ 3.55's driving around 70-75mph for 30 miles and got 11-12mpg in my S/C'd 440 doing 65-70 w/ 3.91 on a 50 mile trip. Not sure EFI can do much better, and as you state not many "afordable" systems out there, especially if you are over the 350hp mark.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#342937
06/11/09 01:24 PM
06/11/09 01:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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You can do a megasquirt for a fair price but the cost adds up quick. Depending on which MS unit you want, you can spend 120-250 on one of the standard controllers, another 200 on a wideband o2(a necessity IMO), then you've got to scrounge up an intake w/ injector bungs or have one converted, fuel injectors, fuel rail, high-psi fuel pump, regulator, probably want to sump your fuel tank, throttle body(pricey unless you can figure something out cheaper), the list goes on. You hit the 1k mark before you even get started. Then it's a diy project so you have to sodder together your efi controller, wire it in, rig up the fuel system, etc, a lot of effort. If you were very thrifty you can put one together for $1000-1500 depending on what you can get and what you can do yourself.
EFI is good and efficient on stock and mild motors, but once cam specs start getting really wild, it has a harder and harder time adapting. Especially a speed density system like megasquirt, which uses manifold vacuum to calculate fuel delivery. For motors with too low/erratic vacuum to work well with this, it has a mode to use throttle position and rpm to calculate fueling. So if you have a cam that's large enough to make tuning a carb difficult, you can't expect it to be as easy as pie to tune in efi either.
If that's what you want, go for it. Just remember it'll never be as cost friendly as your carb and you will have to spend time tweaking with a laptop to get it right.
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: furious70]
#342940
06/11/09 02:31 PM
06/11/09 02:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Carbs can do anything a injection system can do. Except make quick changes to the weather and elevation. In fact I bet a carb tuner guy can show significantly better mileage with a carb. This is because most injection systems--from the factory---keep the A/F ratio at 14.4 while acarb guy can tune to 15.5 if he is good at it.
Not true, modern efi, esp. Japanese goes into hyperlean 17:1 conditions these days under certain parameters. You're not likely to get there with your DIY setup however.
wonder what those NASCAR guys are running? I mean they are running almost 200mph on a small small 4bbl. They'd have to be just as lean
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: fox]
#342941
06/11/09 03:02 PM
06/11/09 03:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Carbs can do anything a injection system can do. Except make quick changes to the weather and elevation. In fact I bet a carb tuner guy can show significantly better mileage with a carb. This is because most injection systems--from the factory---keep the A/F ratio at 14.4 while acarb guy can tune to 15.5 if he is good at it.
We're not talking factory efi here, and with an aftermarket efi, you can tune the a/f to wherever you want it. With a megasquirt system for example, you can set the desired a/f ratios for all vacuum/rpm combinations and the computer will recalibrate itself on the fly to achieve those results. Definitely much harder to do on a carb, with the big plus of the efi system being it automatically compensates for differences in ambient temp with closed loop wideband o2 feedback. But for your average weekend warrior that sees a few thousand miles per year, do you really benefit that much by that level of control? Only you can answer that one...
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Re: Let's talk Fuel Injection. Which is best?
[Re: Jerry]
#342942
06/15/09 11:52 AM
06/15/09 11:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571 Western NC
68Bullit
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571
Western NC
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Quote:
you didn't mention anything about your timing. i had a similar problem until i adjusted my timing. also how big is the engine and how big is the cam? these will play a big role as to what efi setup you want to go with. also is your holley a double pumper or vacuum secondary?
15 initial and 33 total. 360 non-stroker with stock Edelbrock heads, Comp-Camps XE-268 .224 @.050 and .477 lift. My Holley is a 750DP prepared for my setup by AED Specialties in Virginia.
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