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#33886 - 01/07/07 03:51 PM 727 governor questions
Black_Sheep Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4550
Loc: Upper Midwest
Posted this in the Q&A but it's not getting any hits, maybe it will do better here...

A couple years ago I installed a Turbo Action manual/automatic valvebody(#17676). Manual upshifts are quick and firm but in "D" the automatic upshifts are way too early and soft. The KD lever is all the way back @ WOT as per the Turbo Action installation instructions. IIRC my trans core is from a '68 300 so I'm speculating that the stock governor weights aren't optimized for my current combo. So here's the questions...

Exactly how does the governor work?

Do the governor weights affect part throttle shift points or just WOT?

A&A and CRT offer governor kits in 200 rpm increments, what would be good for a street driven, .509 cammed - 4.10 geared B-Body?

Can the weights be replaced by removing the extension housing or does the complete governor assembly need to be removed from the tailshaft (as shown in the FSM)? It looks pretty simple but the FSM doesn't give much detail.

Thanks in advance for any and all responses
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#33887 - 01/07/07 05:24 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4709
Loc: Benton, IL.
Your kick down linkage should have a big impact on your part-throttle shift points. And the gov will impact it a little also, though not as much. Where you get your best performance manual shifting is where you should set your gov shift point at. And you can change the gov by just pulling the tail shaft and popping out the snap ring and e-clip. Oh, and your line pressure will affect the shift point. If you are not sure which gov to get from A&A, get a couple, they will allow you to return the one you don't need.
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#33888 - 01/07/07 05:34 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: DaveRS23]
drag440 Offline
mopar addict

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 672
Loc: Keysville, VA
I put a set of gov. weights in a 727 one time and it only changed the 2-3 shift and the 1-2 was still way early. I had to change a spring in the valve body to change the 1-2 shift.

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#33889 - 01/07/07 05:50 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: drag440]
64dodge440 Offline
member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 88
Loc: N.E. Alabama
I put my outer weight in a lathe and grooved the center @ 1/8" off diameter 1/2" long to bring up 1-2 shift and drilled the center of inner weight 3/8 diameter @ 5/8 deep to up 2-3 shift. Theres also a spring. I found a few lighter ones and tried and worked out a combo I liked.

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#33890 - 01/07/07 06:07 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
Sport440 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6585
Loc: Canton, Ohio
Good guestion, I am not sure how they work. I had a buddy machine two different governers. I just went by the Looks of the A/A transmission pictures. The one I tried shifted at 5200 RPM.

Now I just manually shift at 6200 or so. Ill be honest I dont know how they work or What to take off, of where. , But I do have Two different machined governers here that shift Higher than stock.

Sombody clue us in. What needs to come off where and what about the inner spring deal. mike

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#33891 - 01/07/07 08:38 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
440Jim Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 15753
Loc: Southern Maryland
If you want to do some trial and error testing, attached is some starting point. Otherwise just buy the kit around 5600 rpm.

Here is a post from somebody that I saved from way back when:

Quote:

I added the A&A Hemi (5600rpm)govorner into my 727 that had the TF-2 reprogrammer kit. Before the govorner install, I was getting my WOT shifts from 1-2 @ 5100rpms and my 2-3 shifts @ 5300rpms and I wanted more like 5800rpms for both.
Now that I have installed the new govorner (with the TF-2 kit adjusted to STREET)and after a few line pressure adjustments, my 1-2 shift is at 4600rpms and my 2-3 shift is at the 5800rpm mark. I need to get the 1-2 shift to apx 5800rpms. How can I do this without affecting the 2-3 shift that is right where I want it, and my light throttle 1-2 and 2-3 are also where I like them.
Can I change out the 1-2 spring in the valve body?


August '02 Mopar Muscle mag has the info you need. Yes, the 1-2 shift spring change is your best bet. I have been talking to Rick @ A&A about this very thing. Line pressure needs to be 80-90# @ 1,000 rpm with the kick down at idle position and 110-120# at full detent. The higher you go from there, the more trial and error dialing the precise shift points requires. They took the 1-2 shift spring kit out of the catalog for awhile, but it will be in the new catalog and is available. (At least to A&A governor customers) I put the 5,800 governor in my 'Cuda and ended up with 6,400 into 2nd and 6,200 into 3rd. And that's with 88# and 110# respectively.

This is the response that I got from A&A:
"Yes, we have a split shift RPM fix for the 1-2. It is our part Number AASVS-1 in the catalog. It sells for $25.00, and includes 2 springs and
instructions. It usually works out really well and doesn't affect the light throttle too much, but can a little. It sure is a challenge to get
both shifts dead on, but with these springs we have had great results."


For reference:
The A&A kit comes with two springs for $25. You pick one spring or the other to replace the existing spring on the 1-2 shift valve. One spring corrects most 400-600 rpm splits while the other spring corrects most 600-1000 rpm splits per the instructions. The instructions are very clear with pictures for 62-70 & 71/up valve bodies.


Update:
You have to pull the valve body completely off because the end plate is located on the top side of the valve body assembly.
I replaced the 1-2 shift spring that had a much lighter tension rating than that of the heavier spring from A&A (600-1000rpm split spring).
My first observation was that the tranny used to shift from 1-2 at 15mph at very light accel, now it shifts at 20mph under the same conditions. This makes that shift situation a little anoying (issue #1)going thru the local neighborhood but it makes medium/hard accel strong.
Then I noticed that my 2-3 shift at very light accel happes too quickly at 26mph (issue #2). This was an issue before the govorner/spring changes that I have made over the last couple of months. I just have not got to that issue yet.
The WOT 1-2 shift is now at 55-5600rpms while the 2-3 WOT shift is still at the 57-5800rpm mark. For my intended purpose, this WOT issue is now resolved with just the spring change from A&A.




Attachments
3196839-GovernorDrawingAA-5600rpm.jpg (336 downloads)


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#33892 - 01/07/07 09:55 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: 440Jim]
383man Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 26846
Loc: Balt. Md
The gov controls gov pressure which it takes line press and turns it into gov press. The gov press will increase with road speed as they are centrifical weights and as the driveshaft speed increases they swing out more and will let more line press by and that is gov press. The gov press goes to one side of the shift valves (1-2 and 2-3) and the other side of the shift valves have throttle press on them which is controlled by the kickdown rod. The more you step on the gas the more throttle press you get. Thats why at light throttle you may get a 1-2 upshift at 10 mph but at half throttle it may be at 30 mph. Any change in the gov weights or springs or the throttle rod adjustment will change one of the pressures and affect shift points. Also the shift valve springs can change shift points. The easy remody to get around all that is run a manual shift valve body and throw the gov and kickdown rod away. Ron
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#33893 - 01/08/07 09:37 AM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: 440Jim]
YO7_A66 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5190
Loc: Indiana
The A-A Split Shift Spring Kit will get the 1-2 shifts closer to the 2-3 WOT shifts. But if you are very particular in getting both of the WOT shifts exactly the same, then you need to start testing the springs in the valve body.
The 1-2 shift spring and the 2-3 shift spring. They are both different sizes and they can be different sizes from one valve body year to the next (per Rick Allison from A&A). You just need to pull your existing one to see what it is.
When I started messing with mine I just pulled the existing spring out that I wanted to increase the WOT shifts for and I pressed the spring down on a digital scale to see what the max pressure was before coil bind.
(Is this the best way? Probably not but I needed a starting point.)
Then I bought some springs that measured the same outside diameter and referenced a spring catalog like Lee Springs. Then I bought 4-5 springs that were what I thought would be a "little" heavier than the one that was in it. When I got my springs I did the same spring test on the same scale. Then I chose the spring that was 2 lbs more than my existing spring and then test drove the car. What I noticed was that the higher the 1-2 spring rate got, the higher my light throttle and my WOT shift rpms became (keeping the same governor and throttle presures). Then it became testing the springs until my 1-2 WOT shift was the same as the 2-3 WOT shift. I now have both matched at 5800rpms.
I also delayed my 2-3 light throttle shift points the same way. I added a little heavier spring in the 2-3 shift spring bore and this did delay the light throttle shift. But, it also delayed my 2-3 WOT shift a bit. So I then got my 2-3 light throttle shift where I wanted it and then reset my throttle pressure to give me the 2-3 WOT shift point that I was after, then I went back to the 1-2 shift spring to dial it back in again to get me the 5800rpms per shift.
This did take some time to dial in the shifts but I now have even WOT shift points.
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340 (SL.P. 226/238@.050,270/288 dur,.538"/.528" w/Yella Terra 1.65 rockers, 9.7:1, 63cc Sidewinders (Bowl Ported),RPM intake, QF SS-750 Annular DP, MSD Street Fire Ign., & TTI's. 727/Dynamic 9.5" 3800, TF-2, & 3:91's

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#33894 - 01/08/07 01:28 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19603
Loc: Rio Linda, CA

The governor weight is comprised of three major parts, the outer weight, the inner weight and the spring.

The outer weight has most effect on part throttle upshift speeds while the spring has most effect on the WOT upshift speeds. The inner weight affects both part and WOT shift speeds.

With a severely lightened inner weight and a light enough spring it's possible to configure the governor to where the upshift rpm's exceed a particular engine's capabilities.
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#33895 - 01/08/07 02:13 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: John_Kunkel]
Black_Sheep Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4550
Loc: Upper Midwest
Thanks guys, I called Turbo Action this afternoon since it's their VB that I'm using. They recommended changing the governor first, suggesting that the 1-2 and 2-3 upshifts are taking place while the converter is slipping during part throttle acceleration. It makes sense, I can hardly feel the 1-2 shift and the 2-3 is also very soft. The big question is should I go with a 5400rpm or 5600rpm kit? I'd like to avoid the situation that John Kunkel referred to, "it's possible to configure the governor to where the upshift rpm's exceed a particular engine's capabilities".


Edited by Black_Sheep (01/08/07 02:16 PM)
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'69 Plymouth GTX
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#33896 - 01/08/07 06:44 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
Sport440 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6585
Loc: Canton, Ohio
There is alot of good info shared here about the governors. More than I expected to see, moparts is great. there are a lot of knowlegeable people here.

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#33897 - 01/08/07 07:05 PM Re: 727 governor questions [Re: Black_Sheep]
Leigh Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5686
Loc: Anoka County, MN
I would go with A&A's recommendation, since that's where you get the no charge exchange if they miss it. I put the 5400 kit in Doug's 528 FHO hemi Challenger, with the same valve body you have. With a TF2, factor in 200-300 more rpm when considering the incremenents.

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