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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: Dusted_Ya]
#315158
05/11/09 06:53 PM
05/11/09 06:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
landon1
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 565
IA
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idk about the pertronix systems, but i have electronic ignition and run 12V to an accel super stock coil without using the ballast resistor - no problems
'71 Satellite Sebring 440
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: Dusted_Ya]
#315159
05/11/09 07:00 PM
05/11/09 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,359
Buzzard County, FL
IronWolf
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,359
Buzzard County, FL
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Quote:
I'm replacing my old "F"d up electonic system with a petronics plug and play distributor system and would like to eliminate the ballast resistor as well. I was told that the old coils would fry if you ran them too long on 12 volts. I can't seem to get a straight answer out of anyone else as to which brand and model of stock appearing coil I need for this. One person said I need a breakerless ignition coil, one said I need a coil with 1.4ohm primary resistance, one said I need one with .7ohm primary resistance... 
HELP!
The Factory Service Manual specifies .5 - .6 ohms.
Good luck finding those ! Most are 1 ohm or more, which is OK.
I have a .25 ohm resistor, that I keep around for "special occasions".
If you think about Ohm's law and electronics at all, you will realize why , in these special moments, less is more. Good luck.
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: IronWolf]
#315160
05/11/09 07:39 PM
05/11/09 07:39 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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For most stock type systems, and by that I mean points, Mopar ECU, or Pertronics (switching) eliminating the ballast is a BAD idea, here's why:
The entire reason that ballasts are used is to do at least two things:
They help to regulate current through the coil with changing rpm and voltage changes, IE lower voltage at idle, higher at cruise, and.....
one more very important function is that coupled with a bypass circuit for starting, this gives you a nice hot start under cranking conditions.
To my knowedge, there ARE NO old school, coil/ switching type systems, with the possible exception of the GM HEI which do NOT use a resistor in the ignition.
All it takes is just one cold dark night, a little humid, and you and your "girl" have listened to the stereo a little too long, and now the cranking speed is a little slow, and you top things off by nearly flooding the engine. So there you are, the spark is weak............
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#315162
05/11/09 08:11 PM
05/11/09 08:11 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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thats why I ran a #12 standed wire in the ballest shell with the stock ends solderd on to hide the fact it was bypassed in the ballest shell then I got rid of the old point style volt reg and used a new replacement style soild state vr and solved the prob with the alt dis charging at idle speed stoped the alt gauge from jumping around and was steady after that and the pertronix unit works better with a full 12volt and the matching coil never had a problem with the old 68 1 wire alt/charging system or the points ignition system after those 2 conversions I swap out the elect ecu crap on all of my smoggers and drop in the points dist with a pertronix coversion in it,leaves everything wired up and in place,cant tell exept for the 2 wires from the dist right to the coil the points dist has a better adv curve stock as well for a little added help in a smogger,IMO thats my hickabilly shade tree fix anyways  oh!,I ran the 68 with the ballest and it cut the 12volt back to seven or so,ran it 4 yrs that way and never had a problem with it,but it was lazy and sluggish.....but when I swaped it to a full 12 volt I could feel it in the seat of the pants and by the way it started first hit runwhatyabrung  
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
#315164
05/11/09 08:52 PM
05/11/09 08:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
For most stock type systems, and by that I mean points, Mopar ECU, or Pertronics (switching) eliminating the ballast is a BAD idea, here's why:
The entire reason that ballasts are used is to do at least two things:
They help to regulate current through the coil with changing rpm and voltage changes, IE lower voltage at idle, higher at cruise, and.....
one more very important function is that coupled with a bypass circuit for starting, this gives you a nice hot start under cranking conditions.
To my knowedge, there ARE NO old school, coil/ switching type systems, with the possible exception of the GM HEI which do NOT use a resistor in the ignition.
All it takes is just one cold dark night, a little humid, and you and your "girl" have listened to the stereo a little too long, and now the cranking speed is a little slow, and you top things off by nearly flooding the engine. So there you are, the spark is weak............
Trying to follow this logic....but remember--the Mopar wiring DOES, as you state, provide a fUll battery power start during cranking by bypassing the BR.
My point? So does eliminating the BR entirely!
I don't get how the mopar BR design that provides "a nice hot start" can be an advantage over other designs that do too.
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#315165
05/11/09 08:52 PM
05/11/09 08:52 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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 night and day and trouble free 9+ yrs now I see yor logic also,the BR is bypassed while cranking so its getting the full 12 volts...but mine was still sluggish and had to crank over1-2 times before liting off and running same with the 85 truck after a intake a carb swap and the points dist droped in fires right up instant..would crank over 2-3 full turnes then fire off and run I reachin and hit the key its running like RR said..before the key snaps back I havent really looked any further as it works for me 
Last edited by scratchnfotraction; 05/11/09 08:59 PM.
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#315166
05/11/09 09:02 PM
05/11/09 09:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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yes I would have been getting the same voltage(& I'm sure not 12)at the super coil w no ballast as with our ballasts which are bypassed. I lost it there on that one for a brief period of time  but that easy starting was nice.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: Dusted_Ya]
#315168
05/11/09 09:15 PM
05/11/09 09:15 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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I would not go to far on the gap anything over 45 on mine used more fuel back at 40 the mpgs came back results may vary 
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
#315170
05/11/09 09:21 PM
05/11/09 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
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Quote:
For most stock type systems, and by that I mean points, Mopar ECU, or Pertronics (switching) eliminating the ballast is a BAD idea, here's why:
The entire reason that ballasts are used is to do at least two things:
They help to regulate current through the coil with changing rpm and voltage changes, IE lower voltage at idle, higher at cruise, and.....
one more very important function is that coupled with a bypass circuit for starting, this gives you a nice hot start under cranking conditions. ...........
Almost a direct quotation from the FSM.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: 6PakBee]
#315172
05/11/09 10:06 PM
05/11/09 10:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:
For most stock type systems, and by that I mean points, Mopar ECU, or Pertronics (switching) eliminating the ballast is a BAD idea, here's why:
The entire reason that ballasts are used is to do at least two things:
They help to regulate current through the coil with changing rpm and voltage changes, IE lower voltage at idle, higher at cruise, and.....
one more very important function is that coupled with a bypass circuit for starting, this gives you a nice hot start under cranking conditions. ...........
yea, but it's that whole "COUPLED WITH BYPASS" that gives you a "nice hot start"
why wouldn't the "permanent bypass" give you "continuously nice hot ignition"?
from what I understood, stock coils would burn up because they were designed to operate at LESS than 12V, because they needed to be able to function while the engine is cranking, and they are seeing LESS than 12V anyway.
when cranking, and the starter motor is taking all that battery power up, there might only be 7-9 volts available to fire the coil, so they design it to operate at 7-9 volts. ok, now that the engine is running, alternator is making power...system voltage is up to 13 or 14...now we're nearly doubled what the coil is meant to see...and it needs stepped down...enter, the Ballast Resistor!
at least, that's how it was explained to me by an "old timer"
and from reading literatre from today's ingition folks like MSD, they have coils that are designed to operate on the full 12-14v system without needed the BR--I don't know if that's because they decided to sacrifice start up ability for driving performance (a coil meant for 12-14V that's only getting 7-9, won't fire as hot at start up) or if the change was because today's modern batteries don't experience as much of a voltage drop at start up as older batteries, or if the average starter motor today is more efficent...but if you read their tech info, they will tell you most of their coils can be run without a BR.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#315174
05/11/09 10:27 PM
05/11/09 10:27 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
The first time I pulled a wire from the cap of my 440 (with an MSD 6AL and a Blaster E-coil) while it was running I was AMAZED. THATS LIGHTNING FOLKS! Far more energy than I have ever seen on any stock ignition. We're talking CRACK CRACK CRACK with arcs easily 1/2 inch or more long. Not a weak little snap snap snap.
There is no comparison.
I have a MUCH higher level of respect for avoiding getting zapped with capacitive discharge ignitions.
An MSD (remember it stands for MULTIPLE SPARK DISCHARGE) has nothing at all to do with stock ignitions that is, "switching" types such as the MOPAR ECU or Pertronix
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
#315176
05/11/09 10:31 PM
05/11/09 10:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
The first time I pulled a wire from the cap of my 440 (with an MSD 6AL and a Blaster E-coil) while it was running I was AMAZED. THATS LIGHTNING FOLKS! Far more energy than I have ever seen on any stock ignition. We're talking CRACK CRACK CRACK with arcs easily 1/2 inch or more long. Not a weak little snap snap snap.
There is no comparison.
I have a MUCH higher level of respect for avoiding getting zapped with capacitive discharge ignitions.
An MSD (remember it stands for MULTIPLE SPARK DISCHARGE) has nothing at all to do with stock ignitions that is, "switching" types such as the MOPAR ECU or Pertronix
Except that it provides a nice hot spark(s) (Multiple at 3000 or less RPM) in ALL conditions.
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#315177
05/11/09 10:41 PM
05/11/09 10:41 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
yea, but it's that whole "COUPLED WITH BYPASS" that gives you a "nice hot start"
why wouldn't the "permanent bypass" give you "continuously nice hot ignition"?
You're helping to prove my point. Back to a "stocker" example, the coil is ......
DESIGNED TO OPERATE on the SAME VOLTAGE whether cranking (10-11v)..... or running through the ballast.
This means that in theory, you should have the SAME HOT SPARK whether cranking / resistor bypassed, or running (charging) through the bypass
When bypassing the resistor, AND USING a coil designed for direct connection to 14v (not 12) you must now DROP that voltage clear down to 10-11V or so for CRANKING.
THAT IS a 28% change in voltage!!!
Quote:
and from reading literatre.......... like MSD, they have coils that are designed to operate on the full 12-14v system without needed the BR--I don't know if that's because they decided to sacrifice start up ability for driving performance (a coil meant for 12-14V that's only getting 7-9, won't fire as hot at start up).
Exactly my point of the "cold dark night" example. When everything is great, well, it's great. It's for those times when it's a little cold and humid, or you've flooded the engine, or the battery is a little low, etc etc, or maybe the engine is a little hot and balky. THAT is when you need that extra kick.
I SAY that unless you are running a CD/ MSD type ignition, that is, you are running points or switching electronic, you will have MUCH better overall start performance by using a system designed for and with a ballast.
I think some of you are confusing the use of a ballast with low performance. Remember the big huge Mallory rectangular coils? Those used TWO ballasts---the original OEM, and an additional one supplied by Mallory--in series. They certainly were not "low performance."
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
#315178
05/11/09 11:05 PM
05/11/09 11:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,941
WI
Dcuda69
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,941
WI
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I think what gets lost here is the fact that not only does the coil need to withstand the additional voltage,so does the switching device! Take a 1 ohm coil,at 9 volts, when the switching device(points,ecu,etc)turns on(pulls coil- to grd)the current flow thru the pri. windings(and the ecu)=9 amps.Same 1 ohm coil at 14 volts,when turned on(coil- to grd.thru the ECU) will flow 14 amps!Remember(on a v-8) the coil has to fire every 90 deg. of crank rotation!Current flow=HEAT!But that heat affects not only the coil but the switching device!!!If you want big spark,switch to a MSD type ign. Big reason the OEM's went to COP,more charge time and more cool down between firing!I wonder if all the failed ECU's are due to wiring issues more than quality control?
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: 383man]
#315180
05/12/09 01:14 AM
05/12/09 01:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576
Sarcoxie, MO, USA
MoPar Jamie
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576
Sarcoxie, MO, USA
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OK on my lameburn Diplomat STOCK there was NO resitor present at all. I unwrapped the engine harness to make it simple to plug right into the main harness when I converted to electronic. I found the coil wire was spliced directly into constant (not start) 12v hot. I also looked at my D-250 and its the exact same way.
So when I converted it I ran a two-wire ballast connector, one to the switched 12v blue wire and the other to the coil positive. I resisted the ignition box power wires like stock. Coil is the original one to the car.
So, am I going to run into problems down the road?
- MoPar Jamie
1972 Fury III 4dr
1986 D-150 LWB Royal SE
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: MoPar Jamie]
#315181
05/12/09 01:39 AM
05/12/09 01:39 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
OK on my lameburn Diplomat STOCK there was NO resitor present at all. I unwrapped the engine harness to make it simple to plug right into the main harness when I converted to electronic. I found the coil wire was spliced directly into constant (not start) 12v hot. I also looked at my D-250 and its the exact same way.
So when I converted it I ran a two-wire ballast connector, one to the switched 12v blue wire and the other to the coil positive. I resisted the ignition box power wires like stock. Coil is the original one to the car.
So, am I going to run into problems down the road?
I'm not familiar with "lameburn" so unless you can post a link to a diagram, don't know.
Ron posted an excellent example of a great running car that so far's I'm concerned, is one way to set things up properly.
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I need?
[Re: radar]
#315183
05/12/09 10:28 AM
05/12/09 10:28 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Are you serious or just being funny? I am new to mopars and I know about the lean burn emissions package- tons of extra crap to make you crazy bolted and wired up to the motor...
When I say I'm not familiar with leanburn, I mean I'm not familiar--WITHOUT REFERRING TO A MANUAL--on how or how not the ignition system is wired up.
(Making the statement that "it has tons of extra crap" etc, is something I could have said. that doesn't mean you know how it works, or can itemize wiring points of interest off the top of your head.)
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Re: Eliminating ballast resistor... What coil do I nee
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#315188
05/14/09 04:15 PM
05/14/09 04:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
I used the shell of the BR and used the ends of the guts and solderd in a #10 strand wire
put it back in the shell,got a full 12 volts on the 68 dart
That's what I'm in the process of doing...
But my butter-fingered DA dropped the OE BR last night and I had to find a new one.
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