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SURGING Six Pack carbs
#310136
05/06/09 05:15 PM
05/06/09 05:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,854
Georgetown Ontario Canada
anlauto
OP
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I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.
While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...
Any ideas? Suggestions?
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: anlauto]
#310137
05/06/09 05:25 PM
05/06/09 05:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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there have been some comprehensive threads on 6 pack tuning. You might see if it can be retrieved. bump up your center carb jets 4 sizes & try it.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: Challenger 1]
#310139
05/06/09 06:33 PM
05/06/09 06:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Usally means lean.
yup. 1st thing I did w. my new set-up was drop some 64's in. Haven't driven it yet. trying to get the brakes set-up.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: PHJ426]
#310143
05/26/14 01:04 AM
05/26/14 01:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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Thank you, I have an earlier version from him but it is always a good read. It does not however mention anything about surging and even though it would not hurt them or me to go back to square one and tune them by his standards they seem to run great, I have had an occasional hot start issue but minor and it will occasionally try to load up at idle. So while I am typing I am talking myself into going through the set up process from Tom. Thanks for adding to my work load I have to leave in 12 days! 
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310145
05/26/14 04:07 AM
05/26/14 04:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,099
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,099
Bend,OR USA
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I did a set of OEM 340 AAR Cuda carbs years ago, it was very sensitive to the center carb. jets, one size up or own made it not drive well   I didn't look up the carb. # you posted, if it is a original, not a replacement carb with a -1 or -2 to the right of the list number then try looking on Holley web site for the original jetting and start with that, don't forget to use the proper power vave, especially with that dang Mopar 284 camshaft    Good luck, I agree with the others on the surging, one step, one Holley # richer jet, not 4  should eliminate the surging Let us know what you do and the results please.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#310147
05/26/14 10:50 AM
05/26/14 10:50 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Thanks folks, I will make some changes over the next few days and post my results.
Tom, I have them saved to my computer and the above link takes you to it but thank you for your input.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#310148
05/26/14 11:08 AM
05/26/14 11:08 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mikemee1331]
#310149
05/26/14 12:58 PM
05/26/14 12:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
ademon
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
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Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ademon]
#310153
05/26/14 03:09 PM
05/26/14 03:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
The 340 6 pack intake has an issue with fuel puddling. Colder the intake, the worse the issue.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ademon]
#310154
05/26/14 03:13 PM
05/26/14 03:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: anlauto]
#310155
05/26/14 04:11 PM
05/26/14 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,470
renton, Washington
ph23vo
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,470
renton, Washington
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Quote:
I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.
While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...
Any ideas? Suggestions?
before DOING ANYTHING unplug the vacuum advance... [plug hose] and drive to see if it cures it..
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mikemee1331]
#310156
05/26/14 07:27 PM
05/26/14 07:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
ademon
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle
I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ademon]
#310157
05/26/14 07:50 PM
05/26/14 07:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle
I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air.
don't know as i have both blocked crossover and fresh air....
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mikemee1331]
#310158
05/26/14 09:11 PM
05/26/14 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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Florida
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Here is a plug I pulled out today. I am running a 65 power valve and it had 64 jets in it, I could not find 66s so I put a set of 67 I had in it. It didn't seem to want to idle below about 1500, I began to adjust the float levels as they were high and the clear plugs broke after a few minutes of running, they were only finger tight against the o-rings. At that point I had to let it cool down in order to take the carbs back apart and get the plastic pieces out. I'll start back on it tomorrow, I have a set of 65s I will probably put in. Once I get it all back together tomorrow I will start with the timing and bump it up. What is the best way to set it by vacuum gauge or by ear. I have always been very successful by ear. I was in the process of getting it running well again so I could go through Tom's set up from start to finish.
Thanks for the info so far.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310159
05/26/14 11:13 PM
05/26/14 11:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
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Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.
What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310161
05/27/14 08:43 AM
05/27/14 08:43 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Quote:
Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.
What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car
Troy, that was 5 years ago, I just dug up the thread with a search in hopes that he remembered what solved his issue since I was experiencing the same thing or similar anyway. My set up is above if you have any input.
Thanks
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310162
05/27/14 09:15 AM
05/27/14 09:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Houston, Tx
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Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310163
05/27/14 09:23 AM
05/27/14 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Thank you, I have not looked at those things but will later today, it is a 4 speed and I am running a single point with an Accel conversion (pretty much like a unilite). I prefer unilites and they don't make one for a dual point.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310164
05/27/14 10:24 AM
05/27/14 10:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
Troy.
The engine in my bird has one of the old Direction 280/474 cams,installed in 1983.When I finished the car in 1992,went through the motor and left it in.I changed main jets to #65's and made the modifications to the end plates that were recommended in the old Direction racing manual,still has original Prestolite dual point,4spd,3.54 Dana.Can go in garage,starts on the first few revolutions,back it out and go,runs like a clock,will do 17 mpg if I don't run it hard.If everything is right,they work !
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310165
05/27/14 09:34 PM
05/27/14 09:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Today I put 65H (not sure what the H is for) jets in my center and then drove it, surging is improved and overall drivibility is back.
I was talking to a friend of mine today about my timing and he looked in his Mopar Performance big and it said that they recommended as much as 50* total timing, initial, mechanical and vacuum. The reason I was discussing it with him is setting mine by a vacuum gauge it came up with 22* which had the best idle and just felt right. My concern was that it gave me 50*+ total timing, which I wasn't confortable with so I backed it down to 40* total and left it there, performance is good there but I have to run more idle than I want (4 speed car). Tomorrow I am gonna run it up to 46* total as well as make the few other adjustments to see where that gets me. Like my float levels, I got some more clear sites this afternoon so I can try that again. Maybe I can get back on track and do Tom's set up from start to finish.
Any thoughts on where I am?
Has anyone run 50* total with no ill effects on a LA engine?
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ph23vo]
#310166
05/27/14 11:35 PM
05/27/14 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,407
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
Quote:
I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.
While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...
Any ideas? Suggestions?
before DOING ANYTHING unplug the vacuum advance... [plug hose] and drive to see if it cures it..
 Quick and simple. I dont know whos post this is anymore. Alan started it.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: NITROUSN]
#310167
05/27/14 11:50 PM
05/27/14 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Alan did start the post 5 years ago and it immediately went dead with no answer. I had the same issue was found the thread during a search and thought a good place to start would be to ask him what he found. The rest you can read. I did unplug the vacuum advance after I rejetted to the 65s which I did when I disassembled the carbs to remove the broken clear sight glasses. I forgot to mention it in my rundown of today's efforts. Although the 65s did seem to help unplugging the advance had no effect. I think I am still restricting myself/idle with the timing issue right now so I will correct that in the morning and verify my float levels now that I have another set of sight glasses (hope they don't break). It seems like the initial required for idle plus the advance will exceed what Tom has recommended in his document, I may have to find a happy medium until I have time to pull the distributor and restrict the advance. I'm screwing around and time is getting away from me.
I am also wondering about things like I don't have the Carter fuel pump as recommended and my heat risers aren't blocked off. I also believe I have a 180* t-stat in it so I will change it out by the end of tomorrow if I don't get it where I want it and start down that road.
I know the real answer is just follow the directions and correct what ever is different than prescribed but it runs so well I am having trouble believing I have to do a major overhaul of the system to get the surge out and more importantly cure what I believe is a lean condition.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: lokalik]
#310169
05/28/14 10:21 PM
05/28/14 10:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
in the six pack tuning post it referred to the ports in the venturis. with the engine running use your finger and block off one of the ports and see if the engine picks up rpm or drops rpm, then block the other port and check for the same rpm condition. at this time I don't recall if a increase in rpm meant rich or lean or if a drop in rpm meant rich or lean.
That would be the outer air bleed orifices in each venturi/port of each carb used to help tune the air/fuel mixture screws on each of the 3 carbs (basically the "poormans vacuum gauge"), basic rule of thumb to remember when doing this to help determine the air/fuel ratio is: when blocking one air bleed at a time if it "sounds mean" (idle/RPM increase) "it's lean", "if it's ragged" (decrease in idle) it's rich....so "mean/lean, ragged/rich" easy to remember
Mike
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: lokalik]
#310170
05/28/14 10:55 PM
05/28/14 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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If you are referring to the tuning post by Dayclona, I have that one as well. I returned my timing back to my base setting, I have to run more idle than I want but I have no fear of running too much total timing. I also took the scondary linkage off, disconnected the vacuum lines to the pods and blocked off the supply at the center carb today. Going on Tom's thought of get it running correctly on the center before worrying about the outbaords. I still have the surge but just minor with the outboards out of the picture, I will pull a few plugs tomorrow and see how they are liking the 65 jets. If I can get them to look right I can live with the surge that is left in the end and then I can fix my total advance so I can run more base and bring the idle down. Interesting playing with it but I really wise there was someone in my area more familiar with them than I am, few people around here even know what a carb is much less multiples.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310171
05/28/14 11:41 PM
05/28/14 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Quote:
Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
Troy, it makes no difference with the vacuum advance unplugged, actually no difference at all even in base or total timing (I checked to make sure I had good vacuum and I do) which seemed strange and the timing mark does not flucuate to any extent. I am starting to think I may have reaaly light springs in the distributor causing mechanical advance at a very low RPM making it hard to find the sweet spot to set the idle.
Does anyone know if the vacuum port for the distrutor and the secondaries are connected, meaning if I had a leak at the vacuum pods would it effect my advance? The advance port is showing good vacuum.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#310173
05/29/14 12:23 AM
05/29/14 12:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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4144, listed above.
I have been doing some more reading and it seems some have had this same or similar issue from a bad ballast resistor. Seems like a cheap try to me, especially since I probably have a few sitting around.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310175
05/29/14 08:48 AM
05/29/14 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310179
05/29/14 02:19 PM
05/29/14 02:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.
Sounds like you have a mongrel of a center carb, if your not aware of all the peculiarities between the assorted center carbs, and how simple even the wrong gasket can cause woes in the metering block, I'd suggests you either send your carbs out, or replace them with new....perhaps you have no major issues with the carbs, other than tuning them, your fooling yourself by thinking you can set up just the center, and not worry about the outboards until you've "straightened out" the center, they need to be all addressed at the same time, and even after your done, your not done, you need to go back and double check your settings/adjustments
Mike
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310181
05/29/14 04:48 PM
05/29/14 04:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
master
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master
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Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
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Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310182
05/29/14 05:22 PM
05/29/14 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).
Troy, a lot of luck is common sense !! 
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310183
05/29/14 06:15 PM
05/29/14 06:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Time out guys, you might remember the car ran extremely well, strated fine and even idled reasonably well before I started adjusting them. I built them, the engine and the car, it hadn't run in 20 years and the reason I started playing with it was that there was a slight surge at highway speeds, I don't think I am ready to scrape it or the carbs just yet. My statement about getting it to run like a normal car off of just the center is from Tom's document or at least that is how I read it. With everything hooked up it runs really well I was just concerned about the mixture being lean for the trip. My biggest issue write now seems to be stemming from the distributor, it appears the advance plate is stilling and the vacuum advance doesn't hold vacuum, this is on a brand new distributor, I have another one ordered. I really think that is my biggest issue. Since I haven't chased all the numbers I cant say for certain that the metering block and bowl are from the 340 but I have a 4791 base/body in the extra stuff and my ASSUMPTION was that it was bad and replaced with the 440 piece so I just built the 440 one cause that was the one that was on the complete set up when I bought it. I matched all the gaskets as I always do when building a carb so they are at least what was in there, right wrong or otherwise. I wil take some pictures of the block and bowl when I remove them. I've put over 800 trouble free miles on it since I fired it March 31st and plan to drive it over 3000 or so between next week end when I leave and after the Nats when I get home. Not trying to squeeze every ounze of power out of it just want it reliable and of course not doing itself any damage. The help so far has been appreciated so please keep that coming but I am not sure condemning it or me is in order just yet.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: RapidRobert]
#310185
05/29/14 08:37 PM
05/29/14 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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You may be onto something, I did unplag the vacuum advance and saw little/no difference. Here is an additional item that I found a few minutes ago. With the vacuum advance leaking it has the plate almost locked so it doesn't move at all, in that position the ignition module is hitting the apex(s) of the distributor shaft, I wonder if it is bumping it and tweaking the timing and the spring in the advnace is pulling it back to do it all over again, essentially changing the timing a degree or 3 everytime it does it, in my thinking that could cause the surge. It also might explain way the idle went down hill once I started playing with it, not I was doing it but the can went bad/got progressively worse while I was tweaking, not necessarily related just coinsedence of timing.
What so you? Am I onto something? It obviously has to be fixed either way and there is no hope of adjusting everything else out with the distibutor issues.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: RapidRobert]
#310187
05/29/14 09:58 PM
05/29/14 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Thanks Robert,
Working on the distributor, I am gonna ground the apex(s) to solve that issue, I will find another vacuum advance tomorrow hopefully. I got a replacement distributor but the advance canister on it is now good as well, just a cheap set up I bought to house the Accel unit. Buy junk own junk, right. that is one of the sites I looked at when I was chasing the info this morning and using that as a guide mine was not running lean and in fact slightly rich with the 64s so that puts my mind at ease for one of my concerns. Do you see something different in my plug above? I am gonna post a picture on my plug thread of want they looked like after the 67s and then back to 65Hs and of course way too much timing, look in on that if you can.
Does anybody know what the H is for on the jets?
Thank you again.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310188
05/29/14 10:09 PM
05/29/14 10:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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yeah according to Wallace your plug in the pic shows rich so you definitely would not want to go 4 sizes larger on the jets! Get that dist squared away & what apex are you going to grind on? Just WAG ing on the "H". decades ago a company was offering some different holley jets (hi tolerance) or something to that effect & it might be one of them. I dont think holley puts an "H" on their jets but I ain't really a holley guy. Holler how the dist change does
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: RapidRobert]
#310189
05/29/14 10:30 PM
05/29/14 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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The apexes that would normally activate the points, I am using a light beam with a shutter window rotor. It's by Accel but it is basically a unilite.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310190
05/29/14 10:33 PM
05/29/14 10:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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gotcha, I think you'll be in good shape in no time. I will check on the timing
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310191
05/30/14 12:42 AM
05/30/14 12:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
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Quote:
Quote:
Man, I guess I got lucky in the day.. My first v-code '70 Charger R/T always ran great, even as a daily driver for many many years ( that's why I'm sure ).
Troy, a lot of luck is common sense !!
?
I was trying to convey that I put on a new set of carbs ( put the old originals on the shelf ) and didn't do anything. Plug and Play and she ran great. I did have the original camshaft in it. The only mod I did was convert to an electronic distributor...
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#310193
05/30/14 08:59 AM
05/30/14 08:59 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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I did put the 195* in and didn't see a difference but this again was as the distributor was failing so not a good idea what it did or didn't do for it. One thing I found interesting was adding the water wetter, I have run it in one of my other cars and it did drop the coolant temp around 10*. I agree 195* isn't hot, heard years ago that Nascar runs theirs at something like 220*, many modern cars trigger the fans at 212*.
Thank you for your input.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310198
05/30/14 07:44 PM
05/30/14 07:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
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IT's skipping some of my post so I don't know if I am repeating myself but..........
These are pictures of my metering block and bowl so hopefully someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.
6
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310199
05/30/14 07:47 PM
05/30/14 07:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. Starts fine, hot started fine, accelerates cleaning and smoothly, idles well down to 600 or so if I wanted. Would have no need to cure anything if it wasn't for the surge. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.
What determines if a picture post or if it is an attachment? I posted them all the same way. Maybe it's the text???
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310200
05/30/14 08:48 PM
05/30/14 08:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.
I also took some pictures of the metering block and the bowl so maybe someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310202
05/30/14 11:13 PM
05/30/14 11:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Well I modified my distributor today and put the 64 jets back in and returned it to my base settings. I regained control of my idle and it performs extremely well again with the exception that the surge it back/still there. I ordered a set of 66s today that I will install tomorrow, it will be too rich I believe but I can at least see if it solves the surge and go from there.
I also took some pictures of the metering block and the bowl so maybe someone can tell me if they are 340 or 440 pieces.
The 6610 block is 340 also as is the bowl which incidentally if that's the way you took it off ,float level is way to high.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310203
05/31/14 01:43 AM
05/31/14 01:43 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Thank you, what problems will the 340 block and bowl on a 440 center cause? I set the float level at the bottom of the window with sight glass per Tom's instructions, I think Dayclona's call for halfway up the glass. It isn't loading up and I cant tell that I am getting bleed over in the carb. Any suggestion on the surge other than going to 66s? Another question, should the secondaries hold vacuum when pulled in the port? It activates but doesn't hold, the pods will hold if I have them in my hand and push the diaphram in and hold my finger over the hole. When I have it mounted to the carb it doesn't hold and I hear it bleeding off inside. I double checked a 440 set up I have and it is the same. AND they definitely seem to be fully engaging when I am on it. 
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310209
05/31/14 11:11 AM
05/31/14 11:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,716
Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,716
Jefferson State
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Quote:
Almost any vacuum leak will cause a problem.
...
right, while I'm checking in mid-stream, just wondering if sorting the carbs is chasing a symptom rather than the cause.
I noticed op's other post of the sooted-up/white insulator plugs.
Got me to thinking that a vacuum leak down-stream of the carbs may need investigated. i.e. a split booster diaphragm that opens up under high vacuum only.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310210
05/31/14 11:19 AM
05/31/14 11:19 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Quote:
There is a air bleed inside the venturi behind the vacuum diaphragm,if you look down inside you will see a small hole cover it with you finger and the diaphragm tube at the same time,it should hold vacuum.On the float level,you will notice the sight plug is higher on the center carb,you can go higher on the ends but will probably have a problem if you go much higher on the center.Just finished this set,sight plug location is very easy to see.
Date code on bowl is 82.
Next post has air bleed location.
I'll cover the bleeds today and make sure the pod to body seal is holding later. Using the sight glass, I set it to just be visible, afterwardds when I removed the sight glass to put the plug back in it didn't dump a lot of fuel like one that is set high either. The base float set up I have always heard and used on a center pivot you set the top of the float parallel to the top of the bowl and then adjust on the car running. In the picture my bowl isn't close to parallel.
I will definitely give you this, mine don't look nearly that good, not to get your trade secret but do you recoat the carbs or is that some brand of carb paint?
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310211
05/31/14 01:34 PM
05/31/14 01:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
There is a air bleed inside the venturi behind the vacuum diaphragm,if you look down inside you will see a small hole cover it with you finger and the diaphragm tube at the same time,it should hold vacuum.On the float level,you will notice the sight plug is higher on the center carb,you can go higher on the ends but will probably have a problem if you go much higher on the center.Just finished this set,sight plug location is very easy to see.
Date code on bowl is 82.
Next post has air bleed location.
I'll cover the bleeds today and make sure the pod to body seal is holding later. Using the sight glass, I set it to just be visible, afterwardds when I removed the sight glass to put the plug back in it didn't dump a lot of fuel like one that is set high either. The base float set up I have always heard and used on a center pivot you set the top of the float parallel to the top of the bowl and then adjust on the car running. In the picture my bowl isn't close to parallel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Set the fuel level with the engine running, for starters bring the fuel level up to the bottom of the site plug hole, I too like to use the clear site plugs, as I bring the center carb fuel height up to the center of the window, for street use just at the bottom of the site plug is fine, if your going to throw the car around a road course/track event, then that's when I bring the fuel level up to the middle of the site plug on all 3 carbs"new" Holley clear site plugs suck!, as you found out earlier, they just dissolve with fuel and soften up, the Moroso clear site plugs I have heard from another member are much better if you want to keep them in, all my six pack cars run clear site plugs, fortunately I bought a number of them years ago, but a recent set (Holley) I bought for a 4bbl application lasted like 1 day before the suckers snapped off!
Anyway here's a closer pic of the air bleeds mentioned earlier (not a six pack carb, but still a Holley for reference)
Mike)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#310212
05/31/14 11:46 PM
05/31/14 11:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Yep, I found the air bleed and had a slight leak in the front one, pulled the pod off and the o-ring appeared pinched, I replaced it and then they both had when I put vacuum to them. It wasn't enough of a leak to keep it from working and I cant image it would have caused a running issue since the air bleed is a built in leak in that circuit. I replaced the jets with 66s today and it pretty much cured the surge, I think I might feel it slightly but I may also be convincing myself of that. It doesn't appear to be running too rich from the plug readings I am pulled and from what my eyes and noise tell me, so that much is good. It was hard to start after the replacement and ran like cr@p until it was warm, doesn't stall but idled a 12-1300 RPMs, the hot restarts are not terrible but definitely spins longer than normal before it fires. I am going try to adjust everything out tomorrow if I can with the 66s. I'd rather it run a little rich and not worry about leaning the engine out on my trip. The hot start I can live with but the ragged running on cold start up might make me go back to 64s and live with the surge. Dayclona, does the float level like high to you in the above pictures? I have more on this but I will hold it until you add your opinion, so I don't taint your thinking.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310223
06/02/14 01:52 PM
06/02/14 01:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I'd suggest keeping this all in the same thread. 36-38 is a tried and true BB advance total (not counting vac adv) so with you capping the can You are OK for the moment. I would continue searching for the culprit then we can fine tune the timing later. yes timing gets finalzied before carburetion but we have an issue to find and fix first
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310226
06/03/14 11:07 PM
06/03/14 11:07 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Bit the bullet today and pulled the intake, there was just too many things lining you to say vacuum leak. I found one thing that was suspect but not conclusive, I'm letting it sit overnight and will fire it midday tomorrow and see what if anything changed. I just knew if I didn't it would be nawing at me on my drive and heaven forbid it caused a problem on the road and I had to deal with it or worse a failure I couldn't deal with quickly. I report back tomorrow.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310227
06/04/14 11:21 PM
06/04/14 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Well I used a Mr. Gasket ultra seal gasket and the only thing it did was make my choke stove not work due to the intake not getting hot enough and it now has a longer warm start than before replacing the intake gasket. I have monkeyed with this thing for 2 weeks and it has gone down hill from where I had it originally. Everytime I go back to my basic settings it runs properly and just has the surge. I have to leave Friday morning so hopefully I have it where nothing will go wrong until I get to PA and I can work on the distributor up there. I am beginning to wonder is the setting by Tom and Dayclona for best performance or for best behavior? Cause short of the Carter pump and the distributor I have done everything to the T with poor results. I know common thought is I am screwing something up or I don't know what I am doing but it's funny my settings make it run right and everything works properly. 
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310229
06/05/14 12:33 AM
06/05/14 12:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Doylestown, I work for Fred Beans 2 weeks a month. If you are close I'm bringing it to you!  Well I think I am running the black ones, where can I get the tan ones tomorrow??? My mine concern at this point is damaging it while driving, I can live with it's misbehaving until I get it ironed out. In PA, I have a few Mopar friends that can look at it, obviously whatever I am overlooking I will continue to overlook. Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing? I am driving roughly 550 miles Friday and another 550 Sunday.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310230
06/05/14 12:47 AM
06/05/14 12:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:
Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing?
36 total is conservative normal BB amount. The extra 9 deg added in from the can is normal. If it ain't pinging from too light of spring combo (iirc it was not) then timingwise you are OK. EDIT 18 on the crank from the can as likely the 9 is the # stamped on the arm
Last edited by RapidRobert; 06/05/14 01:11 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: RapidRobert]
#310231
06/05/14 12:57 AM
06/05/14 12:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Robert, It is a 340 6 pack. The thread was started several years ago by Alan and I found it in a search and wondered if he figured his out, his was a 440. So in your view and I still OK with those numbers?
Thank you
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310234
06/05/14 01:08 AM
06/05/14 01:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Doylestown, I work for Fred Beans 2 weeks a month. If you are close I'm bringing it to you!
Well I think I am running the black ones, where can I get the tan ones tomorrow??? My mine concern at this point is damaging it while driving, I can live with it's misbehaving until I get it ironed out. In PA, I have a few Mopar friends that can look at it, obviously whatever I am overlooking I will continue to overlook.
Right now I have 36* total putting it at about 46* with the vacuum advance. Is there reason to be concerned about that timing? I am driving roughly 550 miles Friday and another 550 Sunday.
I doubt you can get them tomorrow unless you find a dealer that may have them in stock,the pt.# is P4529060,three base gaskets and three air horn gaskets,I keep extra's but that wont help you now
And Doylestown is 228 miles east !!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310235
06/05/14 08:44 AM
06/05/14 08:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Florida
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Thanks for the part number. Yea, 228 makes it a little rough for one day after work but, if I spend another week on it that might not seem like an issue. My biggest regret right now is that I blocked the cross overs and now my choke doesn't work properly, I am gonna have to undo that in short order, rather than get hung up trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Never had an intake run cold enough not to work the choke stove around here and I usually don't run 195* t-stats either, strange.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310236
06/05/14 10:44 AM
06/05/14 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Thanks for the part number. Yea, 228 makes it a little rough for one day after work but, if I spend another week on it that might not seem like an issue. My biggest regret right now is that I blocked the cross overs and now my choke doesn't work properly, I am gonna have to undo that in short order, rather than get hung up trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Never had an intake run cold enough not to work the choke stove around here and I usually don't run 195* t-stats either, strange.
Corrected the pt.# P4529060 
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ademon]
#310239
06/05/14 07:35 PM
06/05/14 07:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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I wouldn't necessarily but I don't mind having stuff on hand so next time I have them off I can update, I've had them off enough times at this point they probably need swapping anyway.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310240
06/09/14 09:23 AM
06/09/14 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Well, I over jetted it, put a little more total timing than I would like but not dangerous, I went 600 miles Friday, stayed in Pigeon Forge for the week end and then did 650 yesterday to get to Doylestown. Other a having to pay attention to it trying to stall at idle when the mechanical would fall out it went off without a hitch and NO surging at highway speeds . I plugged a few plugs before taking off yesterday morning before my ride and they looked fine. I am gonna work on the distributor this wweek up here to see if I can correct it. It feels/acts almost like the wieghts are sticking when you come back to idle. I will try to up date when I find the conclusion of all of this.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: RapidRobert]
#310242
06/13/14 12:00 AM
06/13/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Replaced the distributor tonight with a new Mopar single point a buddy had with my electronics in it, immeidiate improvement, it will idea, set it at 12 initial, total is right at 34 all in by 22-2400. Drove well and had good power. I didn't really have time to adjust every thing out and will hopefully get a chance to tweak it tomorrow night. I am convinced that the either the wieghts or the plate was sticking, now I just have to talk my buddy into letting me keep the distributor. My guess is that it wasn't sticking early on and after some driving it began to stick, progressively getting worse. The question remains was it causing the original surging I was trying to fix. Chances are I wont swap the jetts back to 64s until I get home after the Nats, I'm OK with running a little rich with all the highway driving. Feel free to find me at Carlisle or the Nats and bust my chops, I deserve it.
Thanks for all the help and input, Kevin
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: lokalik]
#310245
08/10/14 10:15 PM
08/10/14 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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4397 miles! but she's back home tucked away for the night in the shop, tomorrow I will put her up and give her the once over but in nearly 4400 miles I replaced the distributor (didn't cure the idle in the end but it did help it) changed the oil once, replaced the passenger exhaust flange gasket twice and adjusted the clutch. Not too much to complain about and those who I took for ride knows I didn't baby her. Time to rest.
Careful, your character's showing!
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I like to run the 160 thermostat and jet and tune accordling for best performance 
