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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mikemee1331]
#310156
05/26/14 07:27 PM
05/26/14 07:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
ademon
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle 
I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air. 
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ademon]
#310157
05/26/14 07:50 PM
05/26/14 07:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
thermostat 195
this right here is probably the single most overlooked and ignored step in the whole guide but it does make a difference....
what does it do.
answered above! engine is hotter, fuel doesn't puddle
I'm guessing this aplies to engines with blocked heat crossovers and a fresh air intake. I can't see the 195 stat needed with a engine with open crossover or sucking underhood air.
don't know as i have both blocked crossover and fresh air.... 
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mikemee1331]
#310158
05/26/14 09:11 PM
05/26/14 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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Here is a plug I pulled out today. I am running a 65 power valve and it had 64 jets in it, I could not find 66s so I put a set of 67 I had in it. It didn't seem to want to idle below about 1500, I began to adjust the float levels as they were high and the clear plugs broke after a few minutes of running, they were only finger tight against the o-rings. At that point I had to let it cool down in order to take the carbs back apart and get the plastic pieces out. I'll start back on it tomorrow, I have a set of 65s I will probably put in. Once I get it all back together tomorrow I will start with the timing and bump it up. What is the best way to set it by vacuum gauge or by ear. I have always been very successful by ear. I was in the process of getting it running well again so I could go through Tom's set up from start to finish.
Thanks for the info so far.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310159
05/26/14 11:13 PM
05/26/14 11:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Houston, Tx
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Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.
What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310161
05/27/14 08:43 AM
05/27/14 08:43 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Quote:
Alan,
what is the set-up of the rest of the motor? Stock cam? auto? power brakes? Does the surging or any erratic running occur at idle? In and/or out of gear? ( if auto ). What ignition are you running? Did you have six pack carbs on there before? And, if so, did they run bad? Hence, the new ones.
What I am getting at is if there's another reason for the surging, like a vacuum leak. I usually isolate the carbs as much as possible when trouble shooting. The car
Troy, that was 5 years ago, I just dug up the thread with a search in hopes that he remembered what solved his issue since I was experiencing the same thing or similar anyway. My set up is above if you have any input.
Thanks
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: mopar346]
#310162
05/27/14 09:15 AM
05/27/14 09:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Houston, Tx
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Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310163
05/27/14 09:23 AM
05/27/14 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Thank you, I have not looked at those things but will later today, it is a 4 speed and I am running a single point with an Accel conversion (pretty much like a unilite). I prefer unilites and they don't make one for a dual point.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310164
05/27/14 10:24 AM
05/27/14 10:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
Troy.
The engine in my bird has one of the old Direction 280/474 cams,installed in 1983.When I finished the car in 1992,went through the motor and left it in.I changed main jets to #65's and made the modifications to the end plates that were recommended in the old Direction racing manual,still has original Prestolite dual point,4spd,3.54 Dana.Can go in garage,starts on the first few revolutions,back it out and go,runs like a clock,will do 17 mpg if I don't run it hard.If everything is right,they work !
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310165
05/27/14 09:34 PM
05/27/14 09:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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Florida
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Today I put 65H (not sure what the H is for) jets in my center and then drove it, surging is improved and overall drivibility is back.
I was talking to a friend of mine today about my timing and he looked in his Mopar Performance big and it said that they recommended as much as 50* total timing, initial, mechanical and vacuum. The reason I was discussing it with him is setting mine by a vacuum gauge it came up with 22* which had the best idle and just felt right. My concern was that it gave me 50*+ total timing, which I wasn't confortable with so I backed it down to 40* total and left it there, performance is good there but I have to run more idle than I want (4 speed car). Tomorrow I am gonna run it up to 46* total as well as make the few other adjustments to see where that gets me. Like my float levels, I got some more clear sites this afternoon so I can try that again. Maybe I can get back on track and do Tom's set up from start to finish.
Any thoughts on where I am?
Has anyone run 50* total with no ill effects on a LA engine?
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: ph23vo]
#310166
05/27/14 11:35 PM
05/27/14 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,406
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
Quote:
I've got a set of new six pack carbs from Mopar Performance.
While driving under normal circumstances they constantly surge and surge....
I've checked for vacuum leaks and set the outboards to make sure they're shut completly, but now I'm at a loss...
Any ideas? Suggestions?
before DOING ANYTHING unplug the vacuum advance... [plug hose] and drive to see if it cures it..
 Quick and simple. I dont know whos post this is anymore. Alan started it.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: NITROUSN]
#310167
05/27/14 11:50 PM
05/27/14 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
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Alan did start the post 5 years ago and it immediately went dead with no answer. I had the same issue was found the thread during a search and thought a good place to start would be to ask him what he found. The rest you can read. I did unplug the vacuum advance after I rejetted to the 65s which I did when I disassembled the carbs to remove the broken clear sight glasses. I forgot to mention it in my rundown of today's efforts. Although the 65s did seem to help unplugging the advance had no effect. I think I am still restricting myself/idle with the timing issue right now so I will correct that in the morning and verify my float levels now that I have another set of sight glasses (hope they don't break). It seems like the initial required for idle plus the advance will exceed what Tom has recommended in his document, I may have to find a happy medium until I have time to pull the distributor and restrict the advance. I'm screwing around and time is getting away from me.
I am also wondering about things like I don't have the Carter fuel pump as recommended and my heat risers aren't blocked off. I also believe I have a 180* t-stat in it so I will change it out by the end of tomorrow if I don't get it where I want it and start down that road.
I know the real answer is just follow the directions and correct what ever is different than prescribed but it runs so well I am having trouble believing I have to do a major overhaul of the system to get the surge out and more importantly cure what I believe is a lean condition.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: lokalik]
#310169
05/28/14 10:21 PM
05/28/14 10:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Mass
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Quote:
in the six pack tuning post it referred to the ports in the venturis. with the engine running use your finger and block off one of the ports and see if the engine picks up rpm or drops rpm, then block the other port and check for the same rpm condition. at this time I don't recall if a increase in rpm meant rich or lean or if a drop in rpm meant rich or lean.
That would be the outer air bleed orifices in each venturi/port of each carb used to help tune the air/fuel mixture screws on each of the 3 carbs (basically the "poormans vacuum gauge"), basic rule of thumb to remember when doing this to help determine the air/fuel ratio is: when blocking one air bleed at a time if it "sounds mean" (idle/RPM increase) "it's lean", "if it's ragged" (decrease in idle) it's rich....so "mean/lean, ragged/rich" easy to remember
Mike
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: lokalik]
#310170
05/28/14 10:55 PM
05/28/14 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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If you are referring to the tuning post by Dayclona, I have that one as well. I returned my timing back to my base setting, I have to run more idle than I want but I have no fear of running too much total timing. I also took the scondary linkage off, disconnected the vacuum lines to the pods and blocked off the supply at the center carb today. Going on Tom's thought of get it running correctly on the center before worrying about the outbaords. I still have the surge but just minor with the outboards out of the picture, I will pull a few plugs tomorrow and see how they are liking the 65 jets. If I can get them to look right I can live with the surge that is left in the end and then I can fix my total advance so I can run more base and bring the idle down. Interesting playing with it but I really wise there was someone in my area more familiar with them than I am, few people around here even know what a carb is much less multiples.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: hemi68charger]
#310171
05/28/14 11:41 PM
05/28/14 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Quote:
Kevin.
A long time ago, when I too was in Florida ( one of those rare things, a native Floridian ) my daily driver '70 440 six pack Charger R/T use to give me the same issue. For me, it wasn't the carbs, it was the ignition. When I ran the new electronic Direct Connection distributor with the vacuum advance hooked up, my timing was way too high, hence the surging. When I took the vacuum line off and just plugged off ports, it went away. I see you're running a single point. When you have the car in park, have you checked the timing mark when you have the engine running at cruising rpm's? What I'm getting at is see if your timing mark is fluctuating or if it is steady ( as it probably should ). As you have built many carbs before, they are relatively simplistic. I don't think the .484 is too much that the jets in the center carb can't feed it at cruising speeds. You are looking down into the center carb to see if the flow of fuel pouring out of the ventures is reasonable? Granted, there's no way of verifying proper flow by a visual. As you pointed out, plugs are a good indicator..
Troy, it makes no difference with the vacuum advance unplugged, actually no difference at all even in base or total timing (I checked to make sure I had good vacuum and I do) which seemed strange and the timing mark does not flucuate to any extent. I am starting to think I may have reaaly light springs in the distributor causing mechanical advance at a very low RPM making it hard to find the sweet spot to set the idle.
Does anyone know if the vacuum port for the distrutor and the secondaries are connected, meaning if I had a leak at the vacuum pods would it effect my advance? The advance port is showing good vacuum.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#310173
05/29/14 12:23 AM
05/29/14 12:23 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Posts: 11,836
Florida
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4144, listed above.
I have been doing some more reading and it seems some have had this same or similar issue from a bad ballast resistor. Seems like a cheap try to me, especially since I probably have a few sitting around.
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Re: SURGING Six Pack carbs
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#310175
05/29/14 08:48 AM
05/29/14 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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I know it was a 440 center but I think the blokc and the bowl are from the 340 carb. That being said what issues could that cause? Again, I have had no issues with the way it actually runs, if it hadn't been for the surge I would not have started tweaking it at all. Granted it doesn't run like a EFI vehicle but I don't expect it to, most of my cars are carberated so I am well aware of the differences.
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