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Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262565
03/27/09 01:00 PM
03/27/09 01:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Romeo MI
Quote:

I understand what your saying and I see why you need a rear steer rack in the front. That would be great, you could have your tie rods at the exact angle and length. I think it would be a bit bulky though and take some engineering to get the angles, length of pivot arms, and proper geometry so it won't bind.

It's a good idea and sounds easy, but I think it would take someone with a engineering degree to design.




Actually it was quite easy, I was going to use it
on my car and thats when I did the design work but
I ended up moving the engine rearward and upward
and didnt need to go to it..... but now with the
added 100 more HP I wish I would have used it so I
could lower my engine and maybe move it forward some

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: 451Guy] #262566
03/27/09 01:04 PM
03/27/09 01:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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DemonDust  Offline OP
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Menomonee Falls
Quote:

I have been watching this post with interest. I put a rack in my Demon a couple of winters ago. It was a long and drawn out process for me that involved lots of re-do's. As Mr. P said remove the torsion bars and the shock so that the lower control arm can move up and down freely. Mock up the rack and attach it to ball joints. Build your self a guage that you can put beside the tire to do some measuring off. Reinstall the tire and then jack up the tire through the entire travel and measure both the front and rear of the tire off the fixture to see what is happening with the toe as the tire moves up and down. The positioning of the rack will effect the toe issues as will the distance above or below the ball joint the heims are located.

I would also attempt to get the attachment point for the rack to ball joint as close to the tire as possible. This will get you some ackerman and help when the car backs up.

I built my own lower ball joints - I was not comfortable heating and bending or welding on the stock ones - Just me!

My front end works okay after all the work. I was never able to eliminate the bump steer issue but I did limit it to the very top and the very bottom of the travel. I limited the front suspension both ways to compensate for it.

I now have about 3 - 4 inches of front end travel. If I had it to do again I think I would have installed struts. Same travel no bump steer issues. That may still happen!

Good Luck and I hope you have a beer fridge in the garage - Mine involved lots of head scratching and the odd frosty beverage




Its all mocked up now. All my vice grips and c clamps are in use under my car Everything seems to look good.

Like you said, as I move it up and down I only really see noticeable bump steer in bottom inch and top inch of travel. I'm gonna try to see if I can correct it, but I doubt it.

How did you limit your suspension. That may be what I end up doing.

I try not to drink when working on my car, but this project here is gonna drive me to it

I'l usually slam a few down every night after I've exhausted my brain


SDG Motorsports
Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
https://www.sdgmotorsports.com/
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262567
03/27/09 01:36 PM
03/27/09 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Its been done by a guy here in Ohio, Dave Laube, ???, and I studied his build. That is the perfect way to do it. It gets the inner connection points where they need to be. He didnt use a rear steer though with the Pivot Idea Though that would work.

He used a front steer, and removed the two steering tie ends fabbed up a new drag link with higher inner mounting points and bolted it to the rack where the arms plug in. Ran new tierods and he claims it functions perfect in both Bump steer and ackerman.

I had a appointment with him to view his work first hand but i never got out there. I also have the article with pics of his build. I can send copies if anyone would like. After his article ran he was barraged with calls including mine. So many infact that now he stop taking them.

Someday I may convert mine over, but that would mean another redo. Even though mines not perfect after many adjustments and head scratching and studying, making models, flipping steering arm ball joints back and forth. And then just making my own.

I finally have my rack working fairly well, but not perfect. In the abody you just cant get the rack back and up far enough for its proper position. That dang crank centerline is in the way.

If you dont do the Drag link thing the best thing you can do is minimize the issues the best you can. mike


Edit, Pivot/rear steer

Last edited by Sport440; 03/27/09 06:13 PM.
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262568
03/27/09 04:58 PM
03/27/09 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline
mopar
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Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
Quote:



How did you limit your suspension. That may be what I end up doing.





I welded and then tapped a plate on top of the LCA and added a Just Suspension bumper that I located at the parts store. It is relatively flat and has a threaded rod that screws onto the plate. I then stacked fender washers underneath it to fine tune the distance the suspension travels up when the car lands. On the top I built a bracket that is attached to the cage I have an industrial type I bolt installed that is connected to a chain. It is then attached to the upper control arm.

I have attempted to add a couple of pictures. I hope they work!

5123415-LCA&Strut.JPG (68 downloads)

Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: 451Guy] #262569
03/27/09 05:01 PM
03/27/09 05:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline
mopar
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Pic of the upper bracket


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: 451Guy] #262570
03/27/09 06:00 PM
03/27/09 06:00 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,087
Northeast, Arkansas
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Dodgeman67 Offline
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R5P7, can you post some current pictures.

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: Dodgeman67] #262571
03/27/09 08:14 PM
03/27/09 08:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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DemonDust  Offline OP
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Quote:

R5P7, can you post some current pictures.




Here ya go











SDG Motorsports
Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
https://www.sdgmotorsports.com/
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262572
03/27/09 08:51 PM
03/27/09 08:51 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,087
Northeast, Arkansas
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Dodgeman67 Offline
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Now that's what I'm talk'in about.

Looking good, you ain't got that thing running yet?

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262573
03/27/09 08:59 PM
03/27/09 08:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Looks good

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: Dodgeman67] #262574
03/27/09 09:17 PM
03/27/09 09:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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DemonDust  Offline OP
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Quote:

Now that's what I'm talk'in about.

Looking good, you ain't got that thing running yet?




Ha ha ha not yet Give me another day or two

Still have to take all the steering components out and tig them

Then the final dreaded task.......... building headers to go around the steering coulmn



After that, it's all down hill. Putting the engine together and then back in the car


SDG Motorsports
Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
https://www.sdgmotorsports.com/
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262575
03/27/09 09:42 PM
03/27/09 09:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Hey, That rack placement looks great! It looks like mine almost exactly except yours is Back and Up just a little further/better then mine.


However I do see a possible issue. Your tierod length overall looks to short compared to the lower control arm.

But if true that can be addresed later, Right now you deserve a big for what youve accomplished in such a short matter of time. mike

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: Sport440] #262576
12/07/09 06:33 PM
12/07/09 06:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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Sorry to dig this up. A buddy of mine wanted to this thread so I'm bumping it to the top.....


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Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
https://www.sdgmotorsports.com/
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262577
12/07/09 08:23 PM
12/07/09 08:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 998
Clinton Township, Michigan
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Dartin Offline
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Wow! I just learned a whole bunch. Nice work!

Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: DemonDust] #262578
12/08/09 12:46 AM
12/08/09 12:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,692
Seattle WA
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RichV Offline
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Seattle WA
Your tie rod end need to be ouboard of the ball joints since you are now front steer. This is called Ackerman steering. Ackerman geometry does not have to be perfect, but you are too far the wrong way and it will not handle good at all. To see where your tie rod end should be located, run a string from the center of the rear axle to the lower ball joint. The line made by the string should point at the ball joint. Ignore the elavation only the inboard outboard really matters, since the tie rod center is basically at the same elavation as the ball joint. So with rear steer the tie rods must be inboard of the lower balljoint hence the Chrysler tie rods are inboard. Front steer tie rods must be outboard of the ball joint. I don't know how the Sox and Martin Car is able to use the stock Chrysler ball joint possibly they machined the knuckle or used spacers between it and the ball joint maybe both. It is hard to tell but it looks like it has imperfect Ackerman, but not as bad as your car is set up. One of the tubular K member manufactures sells a fabricated front steer ball joint that fixes the Ackerman.

Quote:

Quote:

R5P7, can you post some current pictures.




Here ya go





Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: RichV] #262579
12/08/09 10:56 AM
12/08/09 10:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
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QWK_ENUF Offline
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that is what dareracing did to make his front ends

swapped stock ball joints side to side which messes up the ackerman angle.it will drive straight but will give problems when turning


WAXER
Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 [Re: QWK_ENUF] #262580
12/08/09 11:02 AM
12/08/09 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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Wow I didn't know I'd get more responses on this thread. I was just bumping this for my buddy cause he wanted the info.

Who makes the ball joints for front steer with ackerman corrected?

The car drives great! Had a little bump steer issue but got that fixed. Still can't hold it on the street very well You need two clear lanes to put it to the floor...

Also I did not switch ball joints from side to side. I just cut the steering arm off the back and welded it on the front.

For some of you reading this for the first time, glad that you learned something from this thread. If you didn't notice I knew nothing about suspension when I started this thread and learned very quickly (the hard way) about how suspension works...

Last edited by R5P7Duster; 12/08/09 11:05 AM.

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Post deleted by Defbob [Re: QWK_ENUF] #262581
12/08/09 03:50 PM
12/08/09 03:50 PM

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Re: Pinto Duster steering part 2 #262582
12/08/09 05:12 PM
12/08/09 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
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Quote:

Quote:

that is what dareracing did to make his front ends

swapped stock ball joints side to side which messes up the ackerman angle.it will drive straight but will give problems when turning




that arm swap was first used with success on my Duster by Herb and Dave Christie 1972




how did they handle the ackerman issue


WAXER
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