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very close to mine

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There is no room for adjustment. Or did you bend the steering arms out?

Or should I say, Did Dave Christie and Herb Mc bend the steering arms out?

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Couple of important things to look at are, when you
have the suspension at curb height, is the rack level
with the steering arms... thats very important. You
also want the inner tie rod pivot to be in the same
plane as the inner lower control arm pivot... these
2 things minimize toe change during suspension travel

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EDIT
On the length, just cut it shorter and re thread it,
but do that later when you have everything in the
proper location, will the tie rods be on top or bottom
of the steering arms

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Hey jesse

racks way too low and those brakes and wheel adapters are scary.

As much as you have cut away already maybe go with some mustang II stuff CHEAP and lots of aftermarket brake options.

or do up a strut suspension cant tell from pictures how low your engine sits as far as how much you can raise the rack but as stated the rack must go up to have the right arc travel also if you swap spindles left to right you mess with the camber to get that back you have to move your lower or uper control arm mounting points .

its not a real quick bolt in to do it right not real hard but anyway you do it it wll take some time and fabing and meausuring.

unless you open the wallet for aftermarket bolt in suspension..

been real bussy but give me a call maybe i can walk you through it.

jim

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I never moved the spindles. Just swapped lower ball joints.

I have all the time in the world right now for fabbing and measuring. Moving the rack up is no problem.

Money is tight for anything but stock. I looked at the mustang II stuff your still looking at around $400-500 by the time your done. Unless I'm looking at the wrong stuff.

I really don't want to cut much more, because I will be interfering with the forward support rods in the front and torsion bars in the rear.

As far as an after market setup, NO WAY i can shovel out $3500-4000 for one right now.

If anyone has any parts to donate feel free to send them my way

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Mr P how did you cut and rethread your tie rods? The reason I ask is the dia of the rod is much too big to just run a die over. The only thing I can see is to remove the ball and socket from the rack and turn in a lathe.

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Jesse, they make a kit that has sleeves that slides over your steering arms on the rack, and it has hymes with it to bolt your steering arms to.

We did ours last year and here are a couple pictures.

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What is more important?

1. Having the rack level with the steering arms

or

2. Having the ball and socket at proper elevation and in line with lower control arm pivot.

It has to be one or the other. Looking at it, I can't do both.

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You really need to do both... either one can change
the toe curve during the travel

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Whar spindle's/ball joints do you have dodgeman ?

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What is the difference between the A-body steering arms and B-body steering arms?

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Am I looking at something wrong or is your car a front steer. I thought all a.b.c& e bodies where rear steer?

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They are till you swap sides with the steering arms and mount a rack and pinion up front.

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Fred, can you also get a pic looking down on your steering arms.

Also from A body to B body steering arms is one longer? Also does one curve upward and curve downward?

I can get disc brakes off of a 75 volare from the junk yard for $80. Is this a good deal? This includes rotors, calipers, spindles. Not sure if the upperarms will exchange?

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Years ago I used F/M body spindles on a A-body and
I recall that I had to increase the size of the upper
bal joint taper to fit the A-body ball joint

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You won't be able to turn very sharp. The rack is so far foward the tie rod and lowerball joint will go past center when you turn sharp and you'll have to get out and kick the tire back straight.

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Yeah I know, thats why I'm asking how many more problems I will create by moving the rack back.

So close, yet so far away

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Would it be possible to extend the steering arms out 2 inches or so to meet the rack?

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Lengthen the steering arms 2", it wont hurt a thing
and it actually helps, you dont want a fast reacting
steering on the dragstrip. I had to lengthen mine on
my last chassis

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It will swing to the rear of the car and if the rack arm is maxed out it will bend itself.

I admire what your doing but you need to put down the welder and do some more study. I dont have this rack thing down 100% myself.

Dont be like me and end up having to reposition
your Rack 4 times.

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If the steering arms are extended 2" as Mr P suggested everything will be right on. I just don't know about welding cast to mild steel. Has anyone done this? I've welded cast to cast with ni-rod 55. But I dont know of a procedure for mild steel to cast.

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Use that same rod for cast to steel

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When you say you cut the taper off, what do you mean?

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Where the tie rod end goes into, I used heim joints with
a 7/16" or 1/2" bolt(I forget which it was)

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When you say you cut the taper off, what do you mean?

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Where the tie rod end goes into, I used heim joints with
a 7/16" or 1/2" bolt(I forget which it was)

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Yep, but get your heims first before you drill it, I'm
sure you will need the high angular heims

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Yep, but get your heims first before you drill it, I'm
sure you will need the high angular heims

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Now that we solved the tie rod angle problem.......

How did you cut and thread your tie rods? Since the main rod is alot bigger than the threaded part. I have the .500 UNF die and tap. Thats the biggest I have.

I was thinking maybe make them whatever thread is close to the original diameter?

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I dont think you will need to shorten the shaft I
think you will see that when you get done you will
need a short coupler with a insert in each end(threaded inserts).
I cant remember what the thread is on the rack but
just use that and put one of the inserts in your
coupler for that thread then the outer for the high
angular heim

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Dodgeman did you make those frame rails or did you some like S&W???

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You can just go to C.E.'s website and go to rack and pinions and it's there.

Remember to rosette(sp) weld them as well as just welding them up.

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You can just go to C.E.'s website and go to rack and pinions and it's there.

Remember to rosette(sp) weld them as well as just welding them up.

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So you drilled holes in the sleeves and plug welded them besides welding the end of the sleeve?

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Yes, most definately do that.

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You can just go to C.E.'s website and go to rack and pinions and it's there.

Remember to rosette(sp) weld them as well as just welding them up.

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So you drilled holes in the sleeves and plug welded them besides welding the end of the sleeve?

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Yes, most definately do that.

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Yep, thats a must do

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Ok another dumb question.

After I cut the tapered end off, which way do i extend the arm. Do I go straight out (red) or continue at the same angle (blue)

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Are those the wheels and tires your going to run,
if so go with the red line

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When re-welding, you need to continue the existing line from the center of the ball joint, otherwise your Ackerman will be off. And those ball joints are not cast iron, they are cast steel (and may be actaully forged, but that I don't know).

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I disagree with you on the continue the same line
for the steering arm.... the tie rod needs to end
up at the same length as the lower control arm....
if he continues at the same angle(blue line) the
tie rod will end up being shorter than the LCA
(different arc's)

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When re-welding, you need to continue the existing line from the center of the ball joint, otherwise your Ackerman will be off. And those ball joints are not cast iron, they are cast steel (and may be actaully forged, but that I don't know).

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I disagree with you on the continue the same line
for the steering arm.... the tie rod needs to end
up at the same length as the lower control arm....
if he continues at the same angle(blue line) the
tie rod will end up being shorter than the LCA
(different arc's)

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Oh boy, everything was going so smoothly

Now we have disagreement, I'm not doubting you MR P but I'd like a tie breaker on this one. Just so I don't have to do this again.

You explanation makes sense to me Mr P.

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If i extended it at an angle steering would also become a problem it would only turn so far.

If you extend it straight out you lose nothing.









By extending the steering arms straight out, You Will lose something, that would be the Turning radius, witch isnt so great to start with on a rack swap.

That happend to be one of my first fixs after my first install. "Move the rack back"

But if you are going to mount the rack where it is. I'll give you your Tie breaker. Extend the arm forward so as not mess with the overall tierod length.

I wouldnt Weld it first either. I would Bolt in a test extension so that you would have another Adjustment point, in/out on your steering arm when plotting your Bump steer and Ackerman like Raff suggested you Do!

Then when you get those adjustments as good as they are going to get. Then you can weld your extensions on solid.


Another tip is to get your Caster dialed in first. As caster adjustments will move the outer tierod connection point at the steering arm up and down a significant amount. If your steering arm is extended by 2",s its extended movement is even worse.

This effects the parallel relationship between the tierod and the lower control arm mike

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Your Rack is going to have to move back to take your almost maxed out inner tierod angle away. Look at your pic #4 When you turn your steering sharp left, look at the direction the outer steering arm takes.

It will swing to the rear of the car and if the rack arm is maxed out it will bend itself.

I admire what your doing but you need to put down the welder and do some more study. I dont have this rack thing down 100% myself.

Dont be like me and end up having to reposition your Rack 4 times. www.heidts.com and www.lonacreracing.com has some good info on positionening a rack.

With the A bodys you cant really get the rack exactly were it needs to be. So at best its a comprimise IMO The rack needs to be further Up and Back then you have it. But you see the problems with that no doubt. mike

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Just a bump for you, to help connect some info. mike

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Ok. I looked at it and looked at it measured and measured. I moved the engine up about .750 and the rack down about .625 and I was able to move the rack back. Now it is straight across with the steering arms and level with the steering arms. Now I have to mock the rest of it up and see if it works.

The inner tie rods are 2" below the LCA pivot point but they are dead on in line

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You would be better off to move the rack forward
and move it up the 2". With the rack 2" lower as you
go into jounce it will make you go toe out. If the
tie rods angle rearward its not TOO bad as long as
you can get a good turning radius, the one thing that
occurs is the 2 tires turn at a different rate, not
all that bad on a drag car but would wear tires on
a street car. But on a drag car as soon as you let
off the gas on the top end the car noses over and the
toe would go outward... not good. Since your moving
the steering arm, lower it, more to match up with the rack
EDIT
I just re read your post and see you said LCA pivot,
the closer you get to that pivot point the less
toe change you see... or you make the tie rod the
same length as the LCA and move the inner tie rod
pivot
but you will see a slight different radius between
the two

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EDIT
I just re read your post and see you said LCA pivot,
the closer you get to that pivot point the less
toe change you see... or you make the tie rod the
same length as the LCA and move the inner tie rod
pivot
but you will see a slight different radius between
the two

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A new system is probably out of the question right now.

I think i have an idea what you are going to say though.....

Strut System right?

EDIT

I would although think about it for the future. Maybe a project for next winter. Money is a little short right now and I would like to get my car going if not to the strip at least on the road so I can enjoy it.

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No I was thinking just a steering system, where your
rack arms would hook to a pair of pivot arms and
the other ends of the pivot arms would hook to your
tie rods... I wish I knew how to draw on this puter

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I understand what your saying and I see why you need a rear steer rack in the front. That would be great, you could have your tie rods at the exact angle and length. I think it would be a bit bulky though and take some engineering to get the angles, length of pivot arms, and proper geometry so it won't bind.

It's a good idea and sounds easy, but I think it would take someone with a engineering degree to design.

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Actually it was quite easy, I was going to use it
on my car and thats when I did the design work but
I ended up moving the engine rearward and upward
and didnt need to go to it..... but now with the
added 100 more HP I wish I would have used it so I
could lower my engine and maybe move it forward some

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I have been watching this post with interest. I put a rack in my Demon a couple of winters ago. It was a long and drawn out process for me that involved lots of re-do's. As Mr. P said remove the torsion bars and the shock so that the lower control arm can move up and down freely. Mock up the rack and attach it to ball joints. Build your self a guage that you can put beside the tire to do some measuring off. Reinstall the tire and then jack up the tire through the entire travel and measure both the front and rear of the tire off the fixture to see what is happening with the toe as the tire moves up and down. The positioning of the rack will effect the toe issues as will the distance above or below the ball joint the heims are located.

I would also attempt to get the attachment point for the rack to ball joint as close to the tire as possible. This will get you some ackerman and help when the car backs up.

I built my own lower ball joints - I was not comfortable heating and bending or welding on the stock ones - Just me!

My front end works okay after all the work. I was never able to eliminate the bump steer issue but I did limit it to the very top and the very bottom of the travel. I limited the front suspension both ways to compensate for it.

I now have about 3 - 4 inches of front end travel. If I had it to do again I think I would have installed struts. Same travel no bump steer issues. That may still happen!

Good Luck and I hope you have a beer fridge in the garage - Mine involved lots of head scratching and the odd frosty beverage

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Its all mocked up now. All my vice grips and c clamps are in use under my car Everything seems to look good.

Like you said, as I move it up and down I only really see noticeable bump steer in bottom inch and top inch of travel. I'm gonna try to see if I can correct it, but I doubt it.

How did you limit your suspension. That may be what I end up doing.

I try not to drink when working on my car, but this project here is gonna drive me to it

I'l usually slam a few down every night after I've exhausted my brain

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How did you limit your suspension. That may be what I end up doing.

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I welded and then tapped a plate on top of the LCA and added a Just Suspension bumper that I located at the parts store. It is relatively flat and has a threaded rod that screws onto the plate. I then stacked fender washers underneath it to fine tune the distance the suspension travels up when the car lands. On the top I built a bracket that is attached to the cage I have an industrial type I bolt installed that is connected to a chain. It is then attached to the upper control arm.

I have attempted to add a couple of pictures. I hope they work!

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R5P7, can you post some current pictures.

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Here ya go

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Now that's what I'm talk'in about.

Looking good, you ain't got that thing running yet?

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Ha ha ha not yet Give me another day or two

Still have to take all the steering components out and tig them

Then the final dreaded task.......... building headers to go around the steering coulmn



After that, it's all down hill. Putting the engine together and then back in the car

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R5P7, can you post some current pictures.

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Here ya go

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that is what dareracing did to make his front ends

swapped stock ball joints side to side which messes up the ackerman angle.it will drive straight but will give problems when turning

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that arm swap was first used with success on my Duster by Herb and Dave Christie 1972

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