Kickdown - really needed?
#2620418
02/12/19 07:20 PM
02/12/19 07:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637 Sao Paulo, Brazil
dart_73_br
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637
Sao Paulo, Brazil
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Hello folks,
transmission builder is finishing my 904 and I told him that I wasn't planning to use the kickdown. He was very upset and said it´s mandatory to use it.
Sorry my ignorance but is this true? Wha would be the issues of not using it?
Car will be street/strip...
Thanks,
1973 Brasilian Dart E100, boosted 390"
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2620422
02/12/19 07:24 PM
02/12/19 07:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,626 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,626
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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If you are not using a manual valve body then yes, it is mandatory otherwise front clutch failure will soon follow.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: stumpy]
#2620472
02/12/19 08:23 PM
02/12/19 08:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
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You don't have to use the TV linkage. But when the trans takes a dump prematurely, you'll wish you had.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2620473
02/12/19 08:26 PM
02/12/19 08:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,806 Northern NJ
StukaJU87
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,806
Northern NJ
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You don't have to use the TV linkage. But when the trans takes a dump prematurely, you'll wish you had. Ha ha, exactly.
Scott
1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: StukaJU87]
#2620495
02/12/19 09:35 PM
02/12/19 09:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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The TF-2 kit gets good reviews & I think with an adjusted correctly kickdown & the largest cooler that will fit in front of the rad that you will be good to go.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2620703
02/13/19 10:35 AM
02/13/19 10:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637 Sao Paulo, Brazil
dart_73_br
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637
Sao Paulo, Brazil
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Ok, so looks like the concense it that I need it.. I just want to find the best way to do it as I don't have the linkages.. maybe cable is the easier way to go... There´s some old chrysler video here... 1971 Master Technician Service Conference https://youtu.be/KsfI9cFFPpg
1973 Brasilian Dart E100, boosted 390"
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: BulletBob]
#2620722
02/13/19 11:53 AM
02/13/19 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424 Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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I picked up on where Doc was going with it. He was being sarcastic about why the OP would be questioning his trans guy's intelligence. To BullBob and the rest ! ..., no sarcasm on my part !! ... jsta total BRAIN FADE on my part ! I misread it..... BIG TIME. BUTTT .. You CAN drive without KD linkage if you tie the lever back about a third of the way ..., if you drive it EZ. Do thatt - then put in a WANTED AD back in the swap meet section here and get the right OEM parts. I have never used a cable set up .... I’ve heard mixed reports about that setup.... FRANKENfurter ... I’ll EAT CAKE on this one !
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2620729
02/13/19 12:14 PM
02/13/19 12:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,008 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,008
Benton, IL.
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The cable does work okay, but I very much prefer the linkage. The linkage takes some original Mopar pieces and some fabrication skills to put together. The cable only takes some money.
And yes, there must be some way for the throttle position to be relayed to the transmission. It is absolutely essential to the proper operation and survival of the transmission.
Master, again and still
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2620736
02/13/19 12:41 PM
02/13/19 12:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,106 Chicago Blackhawks
hemicar1971
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,106
Chicago Blackhawks
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What motor is in front of this 904. I would imagine it is a small block and the parts will be available for a reasonable price. Try National Moparts or others that would have this parts and deal with used parts if you can not find the kick down locally. https://nationalmoparts.com/
1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: hemicar1971]
#2620799
02/13/19 03:14 PM
02/13/19 03:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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there's the Lokar and the Bouchillin (sp) aftermarket kickdown cable setups & there was one of the two iirc that got a lot of bad reviews but I will defer to others on this/which (one) is recommended OR if a different route is recommended. In the meantime I would tie it halfway back & see where that puts your shift points & go from there.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2620821
02/13/19 03:46 PM
02/13/19 03:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,336 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,336
north of coder
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RR, it's the lokar setup that gets a mixed review. myself, i don't like them one bit. i have played with them over the years, and have removed many because they are a GM [i think ] design cobbled into a mopar option. my observations based on my experience. the brackets are cheesy, bending very easy, hard to adjust correctly in the factory ratio needed for the transmission to operate correctly, and a cheap, hardware store type of bicycle cable that stretches very easy, just to name a few. i don't like them, and the factory setup is well worth the cost to track down and install. just my opinion, but others i believe, will agree.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dOc !]
#2620834
02/13/19 03:56 PM
02/13/19 03:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I picked up on where Doc was going with it. He was being sarcastic about why the OP would be questioning his trans guy's intelligence. To BullBob and the rest ! ..., no sarcasm on my part !! ... jsta total BRAIN FADE on my part ! I misread it..... BIG TIME. BUTTT .. You CAN drive without KD linkage if you tie the lever back about a third of the way ..., if you drive it EZ. Do thatt - then put in a WANTED AD back in the swap meet section here and get the right OEM parts. I have never used a cable set up .... I’ve heard mixed reports about that setup.... FRANKENfurter ... I’ll EAT CAKE on this one ! Cheers. I have the Bouchillon cable setup in the Charger...10,000 miles on it without troubles. Lokar? Uhhh, I know of some that have had troubles with those.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: BulletBob]
#2620874
02/13/19 05:50 PM
02/13/19 05:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 211 Halifax, VA.
moparjack44
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 211
Halifax, VA.
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John Kunkle laid out the problem with the Lokar kit years ago. Not all Chrysler transmissions use the same lever for throttle pressure. Before the Bouchillion you used to have to play with the lokar because of lit. The Bouchillion kit uses 90% of Chrysler parts and the guesswork is done Would you post a link? Have been using LoKar for several years, but NOT totally happy with it. Did not know about Bouchillion? I don't get out a lot
K.I.S.S.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: moparjack44]
#2620880
02/13/19 06:08 PM
02/13/19 06:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,743 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,743
Rio Linda, CA
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Here's my standard Lokar rant:
The problem with the Lokar is that it's generic even when advertised to fit a Mopar because of the different lengths of the transmission lever.
If the generic Lokar instructions are followed and the cable adjusted so that the trans lever is full back at carb WOT you can see (simple math) that the first 3/4" to 1 1/2" of the lever travel is already used up at idle and there's no spring to pull the lever forward.
It's not unusual to see these Lokar installations have light throttle 1-2 shifts at 25+ mph and 2-3 at 40+ mph or even higher and, possibly, no 2-3 upshift at all. If the cable is adjusted for correct light throttle shift points there is insufficient TP at WOT and no forced downshifts. Potential damage.
So, as I've repeatedly ranted, the Lokar works OK if the installer ignores the Lokar adjustment procedure and knows to match the total travel of the cable attach points and installs a spring.
You need to measure the full travel of the carb lever where the cable attaches and then measure the full travel of the transmission lever where the cable attaches; it usually won't be the same so you need to drill a new hole in the transmission lever so that the full travel of both levers is the same. Also, there should be a spring pulling the transmission lever forward.
It isn't necessary for the trans lever to be full back at WOT but be sure that WOT under the hood is the same as WOT at the pedal...misadjusted throttle linkage will prevent the carb from going wide open when the pedal is matted and that, in turn, will prevent the trans lever from going back enough to provide kickdown.
Remove the cable from the carb and measure how far the hole in the throttle lever moves from idle to WOT. Then measure how far the hole in the trans lever moves from full forward to full back. The movement of the trans lever will likely be more than the carb lever so find the spot on the trans lever that matches the travel of the carb lever and drill there.
It's unlikely that the trans lever will return to the full forward position without a spring assist.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2621040
02/13/19 11:35 PM
02/13/19 11:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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John, we want pedal WOT to deliver carb WOT & carb WOT to move the trans lever ALL the way back or ALMOST all the way back? (& drill hole in trans lever for the right amt of travel) & a return spring to move the whole shebang back forward when you let off the pedal.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2621071
02/14/19 01:10 AM
02/14/19 01:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853
Pattison Texas
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Bouchillon Performance Engineering
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2621301
02/14/19 03:02 PM
02/14/19 03:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,743 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,743
Rio Linda, CA
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John, we want pedal WOT to deliver carb WOT & carb WOT to move the trans lever ALL the way back or ALMOST all the way back? (& drill hole in trans lever for the right amt of travel) & a return spring to move the whole shebang back forward when you let off the pedal. Yes, simplified version of my rant. Original factory setup did not place the trans lever full back at WOT; in some cases, doing so will prevent a 2-3 upshift at WOT.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2621412
02/14/19 08:40 PM
02/14/19 08:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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thanks John & sometimes it's good to rant. & for "almost" all the way back is there something to monitor to fine tune that? (shift RPM or something else) or is it a non issue?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: BcudaChris]
#2621421
02/14/19 09:24 PM
02/14/19 09:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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that's good to hear & I'll be 68 next month & you ain't mucking anything up as we needed a light hearted turn on this.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2621457
02/14/19 10:47 PM
02/14/19 10:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,163 Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,163
Park Forest, IL
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I like Lokar cables, but I figured out on my own that they are not "plug and play".
I also figured out the hard way in 1980 why you don't run a 904 or 727 without the kd linkage. The link fell out of the front band, the drum caught it and spun it, and ruined the drum. Lesson learned.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2621748
02/15/19 05:08 PM
02/15/19 05:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403 Colorado front range
BcudaChris
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403
Colorado front range
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I went with the Lokar cable many years ago, as it seemed to be the only option at the time. Worked OK as was, cable stretch was an issue as has been mentioned.
I've since added the arm and spring return setup from Bouchillon and I haven't had to adjust for a stretched cable for several years.
I have an older (I believe) AndyF throttle setup that has a couple of fwd facing holes below the cable platform, one of which lines up perfectly to attache the cable directly to the lever on my QFT carb.
Once I installed the return spring setup, it was very easy to adjust for travel as has been described in this thread.+
I have slightly less $$$ in the whole shebang than the Bouchillon setup costs now, though I'm sure the Lokar setup has increased in price since I bought it.
Last edited by BcudaChris; 02/15/19 05:10 PM.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: dart_73_br]
#2621811
02/15/19 07:51 PM
02/15/19 07:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403 Colorado front range
BcudaChris
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403
Colorado front range
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Can't answer as the the electrical, but the cable should be fairly easy to rig up. If the engine and trans are out of the car and bolted together, it would be easy to mock up, in the car, less so. Take a look here, and you'll see their approach. http://www.lokar.com/assets/instructions/INS0046-ChryslerKickdown.pdf Looks like mostly off the shelf stuff. I doubt you'd need more than 40" of cable and I'd bet a motorcycle or even a good bicycle shop could swadge the housing ends for you, once you have the length. You can rig up a return spring and cable housing attachments that bolt to the shifter linkage bosses on the trans, or a tab that goes under one of the tail housing bolts for the cable housing. Drill a hole in the kickdown lever for the return spring to attach to. Cable housing retention at the throttle end will take a little work to sort out. The Bouchillon setup is beefier, but not so off the shelf.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: forphorty]
#2622060
02/16/19 11:57 AM
02/16/19 11:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,763 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,763
Holland MI Ottawa
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Reverse pattern manual valve bodies in everything I own. Daily driven. Never missed auto function for a second. The RMVB is fun with the correct shifter. Fond memories of 440 Challenger with Cheetah VB and B&M Mega shifter. Whats the other deleted function- engine braking? That was eliminated too. Pure enjoyment.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Kickdown - really needed?
[Re: 2boltmain]
#2622106
02/16/19 01:31 PM
02/16/19 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,212 Minnesota
peabodyracing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,212
Minnesota
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Good discussion here. A few years back a local guy had a 62 Plymouth with a poly in it and a cast iron 2 X 4 intake manifold with Eddy's on it (which he was convinced were Weber carbs). The carbs were hooked together and opened simultaneously as you drove.
He wanted someone to change out the intake setup to something a bit for street friendly. To his credit, he realized the setup was pretty impractical for a family cruising car. He didn't care what went back on the car, he just wanted it to be more manageable.
When I looked at the car I told him he needed kickdown linkage too as it was gone. He replied "but the car shifts so smooth you can't even feel it". I've no idea how long it had been operating like that but tried to explain things to him. I guess he thought I was trying to fill him full of BS.
Anyway, I did the intake conversion for him and installed 65 vintage kick down linkage I had sitting around. I just put an original poly 2 barrel setup on it, fresh carb, painted things up, etc. Played with adjustments a bit. The car drove and shifted great. Completely different car. Responsive, crisp shifts, immediate throttle response.
When he came to get it, I had him take it for a test drive before we settled up. He came back just grinning. "Can't believe how great it runs. It actually seems faster now." He was so happy he gave me a bunch of extra 62 parts he'd originally gotten with the car. I got the dual quad setup as payment for the job. We were both happy with the outcome.
Initially I was tempted to just let him drive it till the transmission gave up, and then buy the car from him as I really liked it. My conscience would have bothered me.
Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way
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