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Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2620729
02/13/19 12:14 PM
02/13/19 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,998
Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
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Benton, IL.
The cable does work okay, but I very much prefer the linkage. The linkage takes some original Mopar pieces and some fabrication skills to put together. The cable only takes some money.

And yes, there must be some way for the throttle position to be relayed to the transmission. It is absolutely essential to the proper operation and survival of the transmission.


Master, again and still
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2620736
02/13/19 12:41 PM
02/13/19 12:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,106
Chicago Blackhawks
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hemicar1971 Offline
master
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Chicago Blackhawks
What motor is in front of this 904. I would imagine it is a small block and the parts will be available for a reasonable price. Try National Moparts or others that would have this parts and deal with used parts if you can not find the kick down locally.

https://nationalmoparts.com/


1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: hemicar1971] #2620799
02/13/19 03:14 PM
02/13/19 03:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
there's the Lokar and the Bouchillin (sp) aftermarket kickdown cable setups & there was one of the two iirc that got a lot of bad reviews but I will defer to others on this/which (one) is recommended OR if a different route is recommended. In the meantime I would tie it halfway back & see where that puts your shift points & go from there.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2620814
02/13/19 03:39 PM
02/13/19 03:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
super stock
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Missouri
If you want to see why it's needed, hook up a pressure gauge to the mainline pressure, start the car and move the kickdown lever while watching the gauge. The more pressure the tighter the clutches are held. The transmission shifts between two pressures throttle pressure and governor pressure. the more throttle pressure, the more mph you need to develop the governor pressure to make the shift valve move. throttle pressure is also use to provide load to the valve body, as throttle pressure increases so does the mainline pressure. Higher the load the more line pressure you need.

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: RapidRobert] #2620821
02/13/19 03:46 PM
02/13/19 03:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,310
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,310
north of coder
RR, it's the lokar setup that gets a mixed review. myself, i don't like them one bit. i have played with them over the years, and have removed many because they are a GM [i think ] design cobbled into a mopar option.
my observations based on my experience. the brackets are cheesy, bending very easy, hard to adjust correctly in the factory ratio needed for the transmission to operate correctly, and a cheap, hardware store type of bicycle cable that stretches very easy, just to name a few.
i don't like them, and the factory setup is well worth the cost to track down and install.
just my opinion, but others i believe, will agree.
beer

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dOc !] #2620834
02/13/19 03:56 PM
02/13/19 03:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence

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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted By Doc Fiberglass
Originally Posted By BulletBob
I picked up on where Doc was going with it.
He was being sarcastic about why the OP would be questioning his trans guy's intelligence.


To BullBob and the rest ! ..., no sarcasm on my part !! ... jsta total BRAIN FADE on my part ! I misread it..... BIG TIME.

BUTTT .. You CAN drive without KD linkage if you tie the lever back about a third of the way ..., if you drive it EZ. Do thatt - then put in a WANTED AD back in the swap meet section here and get the right OEM parts. I have never used a cable set up .... I’ve heard mixed reports about that setup....

FRANKENfurter ... I’ll EAT CAKE on this one ! coffee


Cheers.
I have the Bouchillon cable setup in the Charger...10,000 miles on it without troubles. Lokar? Uhhh, I know of some that have had troubles with those.

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2620860
02/13/19 04:59 PM
02/13/19 04:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,048
Back home in PA
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BulletBob Offline
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Back home in PA
John Kunkle laid out the problem with the Lokar kit years ago.
Not all Chrysler transmissions use the same lever for throttle pressure.
Before the Bouchillion you used to have to play with the lokar because of lit. The Bouchillion kit uses 90% of Chrysler parts and the guesswork is done

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: BulletBob] #2620874
02/13/19 05:50 PM
02/13/19 05:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 211
Halifax, VA.
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moparjack44 Offline
enthusiast
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Posts: 211
Halifax, VA.
Originally Posted By BulletBob
John Kunkle laid out the problem with the Lokar kit years ago.
Not all Chrysler transmissions use the same lever for throttle pressure.
Before the Bouchillion you used to have to play with the lokar because of lit. The Bouchillion kit uses 90% of Chrysler parts and the guesswork is done


Would you post a link? Have been using LoKar for several years, but NOT totally happy with it. Did not know about Bouchillion? I don't get out a lot


K.I.S.S.
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: moparjack44] #2620880
02/13/19 06:08 PM
02/13/19 06:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel  Offline
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Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
Here's my standard Lokar rant:

The problem with the Lokar is that it's generic even when advertised to fit a Mopar because of the different lengths of the transmission lever.

If the generic Lokar instructions are followed and the cable adjusted so that the trans lever is full back at carb WOT you can see (simple math) that the first 3/4" to 1 1/2" of the lever travel is already used up at idle and there's no spring to pull the lever forward.

It's not unusual to see these Lokar installations have light throttle 1-2 shifts at 25+ mph and 2-3 at 40+ mph or even higher and, possibly, no 2-3 upshift at all. If the cable is adjusted for correct light throttle shift points there is insufficient TP at WOT and no forced downshifts. Potential damage.

So, as I've repeatedly ranted, the Lokar works OK if the installer ignores the Lokar adjustment procedure and knows to match the total travel of the cable attach points and installs a spring.

You need to measure the full travel of the carb lever where the cable attaches and then measure the full travel of the transmission lever where the cable attaches; it usually won't be the same so you need to drill a new hole in the transmission lever so that the full travel of both levers is the same. Also, there should be a spring pulling the transmission lever forward.

It isn't necessary for the trans lever to be full back at WOT but be sure that WOT under the hood is the same as WOT at the pedal...misadjusted throttle linkage will prevent the carb from going wide open when the pedal is matted and that, in turn, will prevent the trans lever from going back enough to provide kickdown.

Remove the cable from the carb and measure how far the hole in the throttle lever moves from idle to WOT. Then measure how far the hole in the trans lever moves from full forward to full back. The movement of the trans lever will likely be more than the carb lever so find the spot on the trans lever that matches the travel of the carb lever and drill there.

It's unlikely that the trans lever will return to the full forward position without a spring assist.


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2621040
02/13/19 11:35 PM
02/13/19 11:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
John, we want pedal WOT to deliver carb WOT & carb WOT to move the trans lever ALL the way back or ALMOST all the way back? (& drill hole in trans lever for the right amt of travel) & a return spring to move the whole shebang back forward when you let off the pedal.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621071
02/14/19 01:10 AM
02/14/19 01:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
master
CSK  Offline
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853
Pattison Texas
Bouchillon Performance Engineering

44542915_1958569660868400_1693136838920765440_n.jpg

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: RapidRobert] #2621301
02/14/19 03:02 PM
02/14/19 03:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
John, we want pedal WOT to deliver carb WOT & carb WOT to move the trans lever ALL the way back or ALMOST all the way back? (& drill hole in trans lever for the right amt of travel) & a return spring to move the whole shebang back forward when you let off the pedal.


Yes, simplified version of my rant. Original factory setup did not place the trans lever full back at WOT; in some cases, doing so will prevent a 2-3 upshift at WOT.


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2621412
02/14/19 08:40 PM
02/14/19 08:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
thanks John & sometimes it's good to rant. & for "almost" all the way back is there something to monitor to fine tune that? (shift RPM or something else) or is it a non issue?


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621419
02/14/19 09:18 PM
02/14/19 09:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403
Colorado front range
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BcudaChris Offline
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 403
Colorado front range
"shebang"

Blast from my mis-spent youth on the Western Slope of CO with that one RR. I get some strange looks when people here me use that the 1st time! Haven't heard anyone but me and the old man use that in quite some time.

Not even going to feel bad about mucking up the thread with this, made me smile at the end of a tough day!

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: BcudaChris] #2621421
02/14/19 09:24 PM
02/14/19 09:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
that's good to hear & I'll be 68 next month & you ain't mucking anything up as we needed a light hearted turn on this.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621457
02/14/19 10:47 PM
02/14/19 10:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
Too Many Posts
slantzilla  Offline
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Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
I like Lokar cables, but I figured out on my own that they are not "plug and play".

I also figured out the hard way in 1980 why you don't run a 904 or 727 without the kd linkage. The link fell out of the front band, the drum caught it and spun it, and ruined the drum. Lesson learned.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621748
02/15/19 05:08 PM
02/15/19 05:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403
Colorado front range
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BcudaChris Offline
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 403
Colorado front range
I went with the Lokar cable many years ago, as it seemed to be the only option at the time. Worked OK as was, cable stretch was an issue as has been mentioned.

I've since added the arm and spring return setup from Bouchillon and I haven't had to adjust for a stretched cable for several years.

I have an older (I believe) AndyF throttle setup that has a couple of fwd facing holes below the cable platform, one of which lines up perfectly to attache the cable directly to the lever on my QFT carb.

Once I installed the return spring setup, it was very easy to adjust for travel as has been described in this thread.+

I have slightly less $$$ in the whole shebang than the Bouchillon setup costs now, though I'm sure the Lokar setup has increased in price since I bought it.

Last edited by BcudaChris; 02/15/19 05:10 PM.
Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621790
02/15/19 06:45 PM
02/15/19 06:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637
Sao Paulo, Brazil
dart_73_br Offline OP
mopar
dart_73_br  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 637
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Thanks guys for all the shared information. Will be very helpful!

Any of you knows aproximately the lenght of the Lokar/Bouchillon cable? As I have to import it, so due to import taxes it would arrive here very $$$ so I'm thinking in doing it myself with some motorcycle throtle cable or something like that. Reading your information looks like it´s not rocket science.

Also, any electrical conversion every tried? I already have the position of TPS on my EFI (0V closed - 5V WOT).. so would be very easy to implement If I have the correct device to turn the valve (stepper, etc..)...

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: dart_73_br] #2621811
02/15/19 07:51 PM
02/15/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 403
Colorado front range
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BcudaChris Offline
mopar
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Posts: 403
Colorado front range
Can't answer as the the electrical, but the cable should be fairly easy to rig up. If the engine and trans are out of the car and bolted together, it would be easy to mock up, in the car, less so.

Take a look here, and you'll see their approach.

http://www.lokar.com/assets/instructions/INS0046-ChryslerKickdown.pdf

Looks like mostly off the shelf stuff.

I doubt you'd need more than 40" of cable and I'd bet a motorcycle or even a good bicycle shop could swadge the housing ends for you, once you have the length.

You can rig up a return spring and cable housing attachments that bolt to the shifter linkage bosses on the trans, or a tab that goes under one of the tail housing bolts for the cable housing. Drill a hole in the kickdown lever for the return spring to attach to. Cable housing retention at the throttle end will take a little work to sort out.

The Bouchillon setup is beefier, but not so off the shelf.

Re: Kickdown - really needed? [Re: BcudaChris] #2621835
02/15/19 08:48 PM
02/15/19 08:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 869
Keizer, Oregon U.S.A.
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elmor353 Offline
super stock
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Keizer, Oregon U.S.A.
I bought my 77 D100 pickup 7 years ago. It never shifted right when I first got it, so I started trying to track down the problem. Turns out that the dweeb I got it from just threw a bunch of parts at it. It had small block brackets and God only knows what the other parts were from. Long story short, I needed to drive the truck, so I bought a cheap eBay copy of the Lokar kit. I put a spring on the lever at the trans and the carb end of the cable and with a bit of adjustment, it's worked fine every since. It was a pretty easy and basic fix to make it work and I have used the same set up on several other vehicles over the past few years. If you use the cable set up, be prepared and pay attention to the travel and set it accordingly as stated by others.

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