440 Motorhome head swap
#2608496
01/18/19 11:00 AM
01/18/19 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I have regular 76 440 out of a truck I believe. No extra cooling holes on the block deck. For my purposes, I would like to run some motorhome(whatever you want to call them) 452 heads. The heads have the extra cooling holes near the spark plugs. Has anyone ran these heads on a non-drilled block 440? I am intending to use steel shim gaskets etc.
I'd really rather not drill the block as I am eventually going to do something a little more normal once the car is done.
Thoughts? I don't want things running hot. I personally think it will be fine, but I am just asking before I invest in the heads.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2608523
01/18/19 12:16 PM
01/18/19 12:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,535 Canuckville
68Cbarge
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,535
Canuckville
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RV also have a different water pump housing to plumb to the heads....
'68 Newport Custom Barge on a Budget!! BOAB 1973 Satellite WAGON! 318- 3 on the tree!! 2008 Chrysler 300c HEMI!
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: 68Cbarge]
#2608542
01/18/19 12:57 PM
01/18/19 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424 Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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RV also have a different water pump housing to plumb to the heads.... You’ve seen that pump housing on a 440? I’ve only seen it on a 413 and supposedly on a 361 industrial motor
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: dOc !]
#2608547
01/18/19 01:09 PM
01/18/19 01:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Ok. I think the engine that has the "special" heads is likely motorhome, but not industrial. Other than the heads and the corresponding deck holes, it is largely identical to the other engine. It has a cast crank, but a windage tray and roller chain etc. I am saving it for the next build after this one. It has zero ridge etc. so it will be a good builder for later.
452 casting number, but I think there was an additional symbol on them or something. I will look later this weekend.
I have seen the "industrial" 440 engine, which I suspect came out of a really large motorhome. It was somewhat challenging to even identify as a Mopar with the external differences. Water pump, it seems like distributor, etc. Looked strange and it was partially hidden.
And you are correct on the plugs etc. they are different.
I am using these "holey" heads on the first build with the car. Going to do some bowl work etc. as they are pretty tight and use them while I gather parts for the next round next winter etc.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: fastmark]
#2608605
01/18/19 03:00 PM
01/18/19 03:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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On a side note for this app (heads/decks not milled flat) I would consider a composition gasket (or at least copper koat on the steel shims).
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2608614
01/18/19 03:13 PM
01/18/19 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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Definitely the copper coat for sure. The thing has such low-compression that I don't want to lose any.
I bought the shim gaskets in addition to the regular Fel-Pro ones so I can run either if need to.
Don't want leaks but I do want compression.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2608683
01/18/19 05:52 PM
01/18/19 05:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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The thing has such low-compression that I don't want to lose any. What I would do is measure how far in the hole they are & a righteous guesstimate on the head CC's to see what you have now & also to see the diff between the 2 gasket types just for fun. United machine and Wallace racing have user friendly CR calculators. Post how it turns out.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2608979
01/19/19 02:11 PM
01/19/19 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
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OP
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Southern Oregon
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I believe that they were .170 in the hole. I don't have the engine here now. Whatever it is, it is the typical 7:2.1 compression scene or close to it.
My whole purpose for using the heads is that they are better than the regular heads I have on hand.
That and practice porting the bowls on and playing with my guide tools etc. Learning....
As an aside, how common are leaks with the steel shim gaskets? Just OEM parts cleaned, copper coated and torqued? Are leaks generally an issue?
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2609839
01/21/19 01:19 PM
01/21/19 01:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 954 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
super stock
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super stock
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Chicago
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If you plan to deck/re-surface the block, then I suggest you consider drilling the holes into the deck (if you're sure you will be using heads with the extra cooling passages). You would need to find some head gaskets with the extra holes OR possibly drill holes into "regular" head gaskets.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2609884
01/21/19 02:54 PM
01/21/19 02:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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For some more info on the above drilling go to www.moparchat.com then scroll down to & click on "circle track chat" then peruse Sanborns' cooling mods that are in a sticky at the top of the page, A long read but worth the time.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2610403
01/22/19 01:59 PM
01/22/19 01:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I'm only using these heads because they are in better shape than the other ones. I really am not interested in drilling holes etc. I think it will work with what I have. Kind of practice heads if you will.
There are indeed some differences between these heads and the regular ones. I have to use different plugs etc. but it is mildly inconvenient.
No machining. Just going to run them as is.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2610617
01/22/19 07:38 PM
01/22/19 07:38 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Florida
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I'm only using these heads because they are in better shape than the other ones. I really am not interested in drilling holes etc. I think it will work with what I have. Kind of practice heads if you will.
There are indeed some differences between these heads and the regular ones. I have to use different plugs etc. but it is mildly inconvenient.
No machining. Just going to run them as is. that's what I did 20,000 miles ago. but I added the whiplash cam/lifters/springs when I swapped heads out for fresh VJ on the car set. I have the MH#452 with fresh VJ for my 78 new Yorker 440 = I need to look what heads it has now. use what you got even if it is a 318...LOL!
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2610679
01/22/19 09:19 PM
01/22/19 09:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910 Southern Oregon
toyotajeep
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 910
Southern Oregon
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I'm basically building a mild 440 and doing the rest of the car up pretty well for more HP and I will likely build a better engine later once the car gets sorted.
1989 Dodge Cummins & 1989 Dodge W-250
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: toyotajeep]
#2610739
01/22/19 10:55 PM
01/22/19 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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My recollection is that the old Paul Rossi Street Fighter heads were made from the motor home heads.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2610855
01/23/19 02:40 AM
01/23/19 02:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,118 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,118
Bend,OR USA
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My recollection is that the old Paul Rossi Street Fighter heads were made from the motor home heads. So where the Herb McCandless street and strip ported 452 race heads, I think
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 Motorhome head swap
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2614080
01/29/19 03:34 PM
01/29/19 03:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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Steel shim gaskets leak? Not if the heads and block are flat. AFAIK exactly NO B or RB engine came out of the factory with anything but steel shim gaskets. The same with all V8s until maybe the early to mid 80s, when I believe the LA started using composition gaskets, which prompted the reduction in block deck height from 9.600" to 9.577". Shoot, the intake gaskets on my Poly motor were steel shim! As were the exhaust pipe gaskets.
Look in the factory service manual and see if they recommend spraying or brushing any goop on those steel shims. I bet they don't. If they do, copy the page and post it because I want to see it.
To my way of thinking, adding Copper Coat or Hi-Tack or aluminum paint before installing the gasket puts two slippery layers between the gasket and the block or head. The gasket is coated with what the gasket manufacturer wanted to be there.
Back in the day, when Chrysler was forever quitting big block engines, they sold 452 heads for insane prices, like $45 each. The 452 head, like all big block heads since the 346, has an intake port that is easier to work especially when installing larger valves. So people started reworking them. They also had hardened exhaust seat areas and some thought the entire chamber was hardened. Anyway, the most magical thing about the 452 heads was the fact that they were available brand new by the pallet load for insanely low prices.
If you are looking for a 452 head to port, keep your eyes open for the heads with the numeral "!" cast into the end of the head. These heads were a revision and would have had their own casting number except that Chrysler had already made the decision to quit making big blocks. So the heads got thicker ports and maybe slightly better contours.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 01/29/19 03:42 PM.
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