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EARLY A TURNER #2593473
12/17/18 11:47 PM
12/17/18 11:47 PM
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East Coast
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I've driven stocker to FC while drag racing on/off for 35 years. My son has been low budget road racing first with a stock Miata and now a stock '97 3 series BMW.I have a '65 Dart that I'd like to be able to compete on a road course, not any particular SCCA class, and challenge him. I don't need to spend lots of $(although I said that about drag racing) but enough to get that Dart on the track and be respectable for what it is. Got the motor covered with a 325 Hp 273. 2.65 1st gear 4 speed and any assortment of rear gears for an 8 3/4. How about some help for the set up. Be nice to be able to drive it on the street from time to time. Whatta' you got for my combo.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2593506
12/18/18 12:18 AM
12/18/18 12:18 AM
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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You are Italian, aren't you ?
Whatta you got...
I have a 65 Dart and have worked on a few early A body cars. The K member is an area that can really benefit from reinforcing. The design has wide open areas that allow a LOT of flex. A sturdier K member will deliver more precise steering response. That is an easy one. Aside from that, the tricks that work on other cars also work here. Subframe connectors, torque boxes, replacing the thin stamped steel U channel under the radiator with tubular steel to better connect the frame rails, etc. If yours is a sedan/post model, all the better.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2593724
12/18/18 01:19 PM
12/18/18 01:19 PM
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That will be a fun family challenge, You will likely never outcorner him.just drop in a stout SB stroker, biggest sticky tires you can fit, a low front spoiler, big rear wing, and you guys can wave at each other at least twice a lap while passing. up biggrin


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2593738
12/18/18 01:51 PM
12/18/18 01:51 PM
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Posts: 1,176
East Coast
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Just went through the racks and found the bigger ball joint A arms. This helps any? Changing the lowers any help?

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2593758
12/18/18 02:34 PM
12/18/18 02:34 PM
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Posts: 14,889
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Just mimic the Green Brick that Ehrenberg built. Yeah, it's a later A but about 95% of the stuff is the same. Most of what is not the same will be either not applicable (like the centerlink) or you'll need to use the early A version, like maybe subframe connectors if you buy off the shelf.

Tire and wheel fitment will be different and you will need to pay close attention to that when making your choices.


Problem might be find the build specs anymore. Anyone?


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594042
12/19/18 12:37 AM
12/19/18 12:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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I would keep it fairly simple for now.

-Largest T-bars you can get
-Stiffer leaf springs that will still keep the car low (maybe go to a 4x4 or leaf spring shop to help)
-Fox/Hotchkis shocks (either adjustable or non-adjustable)
-Subframe connectors
-Tubular uppers
-Reinforced LCA
-Big sway bars front and rear
-3.23 or numerically lower gears
-17" wheels with 245/45/17 on all 4 corners minimum. Probably would be better off with an 18: wheel and a 245/40/18 but everything goes up substantially in price.
- I would go with a Dr Diff Stage 3 brake kit at the minimum and some sort of discs out back (I prefer Dr Diff).
Some sort of stiffer steering whether a Firm Feel Stage 3 or a Borgeson box.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594100
12/19/18 02:42 AM
12/19/18 02:42 AM
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Uhhh, Samy, have you ever looked at the wheelwells of an early A body?
You are not going to fit tires and wheels of that size without cutting.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: Kern Dog] #2594103
12/19/18 02:47 AM
12/19/18 02:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!
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Originally Posted By Frankenduster
Uhhh, Samy, have you ever looked at the wheelwells of an early A body?
You are not going to fit tires and wheels of that size without cutting.


You can't do some bending and trimming and fit 245's under there? Dr Diff leaf spring relocation... shruggy

Last edited by MuuMuu101; 12/19/18 02:52 AM.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: MuuMuu101] #2594112
12/19/18 03:48 AM
12/19/18 03:48 AM
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Victoria B. C Canada
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I got 245/45/17s on 8" wide wheels on the back of my 66, its snug but it can be done with some detailed measurements. I think I have 4 11/16" back space. Greg you were on the track with me, no smoke from the wheel wells right.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594115
12/19/18 04:01 AM
12/19/18 04:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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The rear is certainly possible since the axle merely moves up and down. The front? Oh boy...
I have a 65 Dart and the front wheelwells are arched higher than the rear. The complexity of turning, up and down movement and ever changing camber angles still are issues that are harder to deal with on these early A cars. These were built with a tiny 13", 80 series tire in mind.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: Supercuda] #2594116
12/19/18 04:13 AM
12/19/18 04:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
Just mimic the Green Brick that Ehrenberg built. Yeah, it's a later A but about 95% of the stuff is the same. Most of what is not the same will be either not applicable (like the centerlink) or you'll need to use the early A version, like maybe subframe connectors if you buy off the shelf.

Tire and wheel fitment will be different and you will need to pay close attention to that when making your choices.


Problem might be find the build specs anymore. Anyone?




Here is a cut and paste from a guy at FABO:

"Ok I found my magazine from mopar action with the following information now in checklist form

73-76 stock a body pieces
Tension strut rod bushings changed to urethane
Moog k7103 problem solver upper control arm bushings
Gusset upper control arm mount from bracket to rail
Weld heavy washer to k member around nose of lower control arm stud tube
Frame connectors
Gusset upper control arm/shock tower bracket to fender apron
Gusset steering box mounting bracket to k member
74 and up C body tie rods 11/16 bolt in
Urethane sway bar frame bushings
Box lower control arm
920 torsion bars
1 inch sway bar
Koni shocks on full firm
16:1 manual steering box (firm feel)
Eliminate bump steer in the chassis book
Alignment specs from the green brick 1.5 degrees negative camber
2.5 positive caster
1/16 to 3/32 toe in

Rear end
De arched ss springs
Koni shocks and rancho kicker shocks from offroad dodge pickups which controls wheel hop
Brakes
76 up 11.75 x 1" rotors
73 up drum brake steering knuckles for large wheel bearings
73 up big ball joint upper control arms
Viper caliper from 92 -02
AR engineering adapters
10" x 2.5 drums on rear.
Tires were his number one improvement
Light weight aluminum 15 x 8 rims
Tires temp rating of A
Traction rating AA or A
No m&s, all season or plus 4 tires
Treadwear rating the lower the better. Under 100 is a weekend warrior. 100 to 240 good compromise for daily street corner carving. Over 250 soccer mom's minivan or grandmas car.
Wider tire equals more rubber on road. 225 fits good on dart 40-45 and 15 inch. 225/40/15
Engine is a highly tweaked 340 with w2 heads and I would have to dig deeper for the engine build.

That should cover the majority of it all. Everything else is stock parts from rock auto, local parts stores amazon or wherever you get stock parts."

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: Kern Dog] #2594117
12/19/18 04:16 AM
12/19/18 04:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
MuuMuu101 Offline
I got lucky at Woodward!
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
Originally Posted By Frankenduster
The rear is certainly possible since the axle merely moves up and down. The front? Oh boy...
I have a 65 Dart and the front wheelwells are arched higher than the rear. The complexity of turning, up and down movement and ever changing camber angles still are issues that are harder to deal with on these early A cars. These were built with a tiny 13", 80 series tire in mind.


If he's able to keep the weight down (sub-3000 lbs) he may be able to get away with a stickier 235/40/18 or a 225/40(or 45)/18 and still be somewhat competitive. That's if they fit, which I have no clue.

The Miata is probably riding on a 24" diameter 225 tire and depending on how modified the BMW is, it's probably running 245 or 255's and a 25-26" tire. I'm not super familiar with those platforms.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594176
12/19/18 11:57 AM
12/19/18 11:57 AM
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Posts: 14,889
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245/45/17s are just about the max you can stuff under an early A without major surgery, with some being easier than others. Easier being subjective.

You will need to roll fender lips. You will most likely need to trim bits and pieces of sheet metal and you will have to pay very close attention to backspacing.

For the record as the rear axle goes up and down the tire top can go in and out and the axle center line goes fore and aft.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594286
12/19/18 03:30 PM
12/19/18 03:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By A/MP
I've driven stocker to FC while drag racing on/off for 35 years. My son has been low budget road racing first with a stock Miata and now a stock '97 3 series BMW.I have a '65 Dart that I'd like to be able to compete on a road course, not any particular SCCA class, and challenge him. I don't need to spend lots of $(although I said that about drag racing) but enough to get that Dart on the track and be respectable for what it is. Got the motor covered with a 325 Hp 273. 2.65 1st gear 4 speed and any assortment of rear gears for an 8 3/4. How about some help for the set up. Be nice to be able to drive it on the street from time to time. Whatta' you got for my combo.


You need to find a venue first. Places that will let you compete against your son in his car on a road course are very limited. For track days, the tracks generally don't allow transponders, and the sanctioning bodies don't expect or want to see any racing.

The Midwest Motorsports Council runs "high speed autocross" events on tracks. Moparmitch has posted about those. SCCA has considered "Time trials" in the same catagory as hillclimbs. So if a region near you runs those, thats an option as long as the cars meet the safety requiemnts (which are similar to race cars). SCCA is experimenting with some new activities, so keep an eye out there. The Ultimate Street Car Challenge is the organization may have the closest to what you want to do with street cars.

Once you know who you will be running with, then you can decide on tires and wheels. They are your best starting point for determining the rest of the setup. Almost every time I've changed my competition tires I've ended up making setup changes.

If you are looking at W2W racing, that's another story. Look up Dave Mapes Lame Horse Racing zebra Dart, Mike Ritz Team Starfish, Robert and Jim Benson's Dart and Barracuda to get an idea about setting up an early A for vintage or open racing. The Bensons generally run in regional open SCCA class.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594338
12/19/18 05:50 PM
12/19/18 05:50 PM
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jcc Offline
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OP: "I don't need to spend lots of $"

Reality check guys.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: jcc] #2594374
12/19/18 06:48 PM
12/19/18 06:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By jcc
OP: "I don't need to spend lots of $"

Reality check guys.

I agree. At the same he's aware that this may not be cheap. "(although I said that about drag racing)"
so shruggy
This part "but enough to get that Dart on the track and be respectable for what it is." can be done fairly cheaply. It's the "competing" portion that will make it cost more. If that's the true goal, he's got to find a venue, or the dollars will be wasted for sure.

Last edited by Mattax; 12/19/18 07:44 PM.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594407
12/19/18 08:02 PM
12/19/18 08:02 PM
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East Coast
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I can do autocross but I prefer club open tracks days. That list from FABO is what I am looking for. Do a simple basic build and if there is a need I can move up from there. Thanks for all the info.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2594437
12/19/18 09:26 PM
12/19/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By A/MP
I can do autocross but I prefer club open tracks days. That list from FABO is what I am looking for. Do a simple basic build and if there is a need I can move up from there. Thanks for all the info.


If you're just running for the enjoyment of it, and using Green Brick list, here's how I'd change it for your '65.

Still choose your tires first.
If your going to use 200 TW, 17"+ rim sizes may be the only choice.
If following the Green Brick and going 15", then Toyo RA1 in 225/50-15 or R888 in the same or 235 and similar are available.

Tension strut rod bushings changed to urethane (check fit and cut down if need as shown here: http://www.heritech.org/cuda/bushings.html)
Moog k7103 problem solver upper control arm bushings installed to add caster.
Gusset upper control arm mount from bracket to rail if needed.
Weld heavy washer to k member around nose of lower control arm stud tube - if needed.
Frame connectors
Gusset steering box mounting bracket to k member - may not need to do this on '65.
74 and up C body tie rods 11/16 bolt - or just weld the sleeve center so its a tube.
Urethane sway bar frame bushings
Box lower control arm - if you want.
990 torsion bars minimum. The stickier tires, the larger bars needed. For R-comps or 200 TW, 1.03" minimum.
1.125" inch sway bar. Same deal as above. Use the strongest end links you can put on.
Koni shocks on full firm: These will be a custom build., Good alternatives include Spax, Bilstiens, etc. before to an all competition shock like the Koni Reds, Penskes etc.
16:1 manual steering box (firm feel), or power steering stage 3 depending on the driver.
Eliminate bump steer in the chassis book
Alignment specs from the green brick 1.5 degrees negative camber (Follow tire mfc suggestions for this)
2.5 positive caster
1/16 to 3/32 toe in
(Start alignment by lowering front end to 0.5 - 1.5" ride ht)
Rear end
De arched ss springs. Alternatives are afcos or Firm Feels, Stanley Spring repop of the 383 spring.
Raise front spring eye for lowering rear and improving anti-squat. How much depends on the rear springs and the rear weight (and how much street use it will also see)
Rancho kicker shocks from offroad dodge pickups which controls wheel hop - May not need this with a well clamped front leafs, and/or by raising the front spring eye.
Brakes:
If you already have Kelsey Hayes 4 piston calipers, just install some pads that can handle track. eg Porterfield RS-4, EBC Red, etc. etc. depending on tires and track.
If not, then whatever disk setup you'ld like. Keep it light. Your car doesnt weigh much compared to later cars.

Light weight aluminum 15 x 8 rims. 15 x7 or 15 x 7.5 will fit with no problem and be fine with 225 or 235 width tires. 8" may need some massaging and careful checking. Do not underestimate the amount the tires, wheels, and suspension move relative to the body.

Oil control. At minimum, baffle the stock pan. Even better, a Kevko or Milidon road race or your own custum sump.

Breathers and PCV may need to be raised and interconnected and/or use a catch tank.

Coolant overflow catch can or return bottle mandatory of course.

To recap, the big things are tires, t-bars, front sway bar, and decent shocks.

Last edited by Mattax; 12/19/18 09:33 PM.
Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: Kern Dog] #2594571
12/20/18 03:40 AM
12/20/18 03:40 AM
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Victoria B. C Canada
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You are correct the fronts are a bit of a problem, I could have gone a bit bigger but at the risk of some rubbing, I run 225/45s in 17X7 wheels up front. The 66s seem to have a different shaped wheel well opening than the 65s. I run 1.14 bar and the Hotchkis/Fox adjustable shocks so not a ton up and down movement. Yeah they weren't designed from the get go to be road racers with 13" tires that's for sure.

Re: EARLY A TURNER [Re: A/MP] #2597288
12/26/18 08:06 PM
12/26/18 08:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,176
East Coast
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Saw a few pics and some brief captions about a SCCA '66 D Dart that was quite successful(1966-67). Since I don't know much about the different classes, it looks like someone redid the car to more modern standards(whenever it was done)and I got the feeling it was now racing a nostalgia class. It had Dougs headers on it and a 273. Anyone know about the restoration of this car? Tullius/Adamowicz race team. Might give some insight to a total build and all the issues discussed here, plus those specific to the early A body.

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