|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592627
12/16/18 02:06 AM
12/16/18 02:06 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
Hey guys, still trying to knock out some of the issues with my procharged 340 before spring.
This a new motor (maybe 1500 miles) with total seal gapless rings. [b][/b]I really don't think I have been burning a significant amount of oil either, but it has been hard to say Also what are your guesses on what may be causing the wet piston tops? Look I'm only going to say this once because most people using these rings and there are many,will not want to hear this. It's your rings. They are probably not washed out or glazed or whatever. It is the gapless design that causes the abnormal oil consumption under high vacuum conditions. Most people in general do not like feeling embarrassed and this applies to car guys that shell out big $$$$ on the trick of the week. When the trick of the week is a dud, NOBODY wants to admit they have been had. I have been down this road with those stupid , expensive rings three times personally and several more as a third party. OP please dingle ball hone your cylinders if they are straight and round and install a conventional gap ring. All of your oil consumption problems will go away and your tune up will more than likely come around (coincidence? not likely) My favourites are Hastings, Sealed Power, Mahle (PC), Grant etc... I could write a chapter on my experience with rings with documentation (proof) , compression tests, leak down tests, dyno tests and REAL world driving and use. Before certain ostriches jump on me--Yes I know how to hone a cylinder and file rings to the correct gap. I've never and I mean NEVER built or machined an engine that consumed abnormal (copius) amounts of oil UNTIL I tried THOSE rings. I was dumb enough to try them three times (see afore mentioned ostrich syndrome) which in my books is a fair shot. Never again. Oh you can call them and tell them and they will tell you its the oil youre using, its your honing, its the pistons, its the crank causing to much piston rock ('cuz no ones ever built a stroker that didn't burn too much oil-lol), its too much windage, its Trump's fault < OK that last one I made up. I even had a certain SALESMAN there tell me his new GM truck used a quart a week and when he complained the service rep told him it was completely normal and to piss off. Sorry I cannot and will not tell my customer that. Sorry for the long post but it is your rings--I'd put a large sum of $$$ on it. Pile on. J.Rob Thanks RAMM and to all others who replied. It definitely sounds like you are right. I'm going to check a few more things first, I want to do the leak down test hot just to check (cold everything looked good, but I know that's no way to do a leak down test). The only thing I am wondering though if maybe it isn't oil and it's just wet carbon. I'll figure that out quickly with a q tip sent down there though, it was hard to tell on my somewhat crappy borescope, I just assumed it wasn't carbon because the motor only has 800 miles on it, I didn't think it could build up so much so fast. I just thought it was weird because the the plugs never showed any signs of serious oil issues. One or two had a slight black glaze to them (but no ash), mostly they were just a sooted with fuel. Not terribly sooty, just definitely on the rich side. Under most driving conditions the car never ran rich, it's not like the car was dumping fuel all the time. It only had a weird load up problem after coming to a stop which would cause it to buck and stumble bad when trying to get moving again. If I let it idle for a few seconds before getting going again the AFR would normalize and then it would accelerate great. It would also get lean tip ins going into WOT causing it to overcorrect rich and then correct out of it again. This would happen briefly at the gear changes too. It wasn't as if it was dumping fuel all the time, but there were definitely times where it would stumble from dumping fuel. I know it is probably the rings, but I figure it can't hurt just trying to smooth out the tune on gas, do a leak down test and maybe drive it a bit out of boost to see if the pistons clean up? I'm not going to get into boost if they don't, but as a last resort I figure I could try this. I'll be honest, if I pull this motor out I'm probably not going to want to put it back in LOL Been wanting to go late hemi ever since I started this and realized I boogered my old, simple, reliable setup all up with FITECH and the procharger lol I'll say it once. It isn't the rings. FACT.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2592670
12/16/18 05:50 AM
12/16/18 05:50 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
When you use a gapless ring on the top position it make shte 2nd ring flutter which can and may cause excessive oil consumption at WOT   Been there, done that once a long time ago  No gapless rings since   I've also learn the lesson on to tight of ring gaps  Drag race motors run better with looser clearances almost everywhere  No, a gapless top will not make the second ring flutter. If you used a gapless second ring, you could have made that ring unsettle the top ring, but a gapless top ring won't make a second ring flutter..
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: madscientist]
#2592710
12/16/18 12:38 PM
12/16/18 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
|
No, a gapless top will not make the second ring flutter. If you used a gapless second ring, you could have made that ring unsettle the top ring, but a gapless top ring won't make a second ring flutter..
Your inexperience is showing. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: madscientist]
#2592712
12/16/18 12:47 PM
12/16/18 12:47 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
|
Before certain ostriches jump on me Like I said, go and stick your head back in the sand Tim.
I'll say it once.
It isn't the rings. FACT.
Just because you write the word FACT in all capitals doesn't a fact make-internet dipstick. Look OP and whoever is using the gapless ring design--Use them don't use them, believe in them , don't believe in them, etc.... I DON'T CARE, not my money, not me driving around with an engine that consumes oil. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592718
12/16/18 12:57 PM
12/16/18 12:57 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
|
The only thing I am wondering though if maybe it isn't oil and it's just wet carbon. Whenever I have taken apart an engine that ran really rich the carbon was so dry it would flake off in sheets about the size of 1" x 1" . Wet is oil , fuel is dry 'cuz it evaporates. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2592721
12/16/18 01:01 PM
12/16/18 01:01 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048
The Great White North
|
When you use a gapless ring on the top position it make shte 2nd ring flutter which can and may cause excessive oil consumption at WOT Been there, done that once a long time ago No gapless rings since I've also learn the lesson on to tight of ring gaps Drag race motors run better with looser clearances almost everywhere Totally agree Cab although I admit I don't really know what happens to the ring. I believe it seals TOO well which just sucks oil up and past the entire ring pack. Grumpy Jenkins tried the gapless ring thing in both positions many times and wrote in his book that they lost power AND lost oil control. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
2011 PHR\EMC Competitor
2012 PHR\EMC Competitor
2013 PHR\EMC Competitor
2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor
2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow
2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock
2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592765
12/16/18 02:17 PM
12/16/18 02:17 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
Geeesus, feeling a little insecure?
Blame the rings all you want.
And while you're at it, bite me. I didn't say [censored] to you or about you. Keep poking the bear and I'll say what I think of you.
Last edited by madscientist; 12/16/18 02:17 PM.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592767
12/16/18 02:19 PM
12/16/18 02:19 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
BTW, let me reiterate for the illiterate...
IT ISNT THE RINGS. IT NOT A RING ISSUE. FACT.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: madscientist]
#2592799
12/16/18 03:15 PM
12/16/18 03:15 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,115
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,115
Bend,OR USA
|
OP, are you using a synthetic oil?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2595904
12/23/18 07:11 PM
12/23/18 07:11 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
|
Alright guys, I'm completely confused here. I couldn't resist taking it out for a drive after converting it back over to pump gas. Risky, I know, but I think a part of me is tired of this 2 year battle and maybe wants to blow it up so I can start from scratch lol Anyway, I set my targets in the FITECH and took her for a drive. She ran great. The computer was obviously still learning and had a hiccup here and there, but the first time I leaned into it she ran like a raped king kong. Hit boost and blew the drag radials off the car in first and second at part throttle, pulled in third clean and hard like it hasn't done since I first fired her up. I drove it around for about another 30 minutes, beat on it a little more and took it home. Took it out again today and it still pulled hard, but started running a little rougher, misfiring a bit more and just didn't seem to have the power it had yesterday in boost. Took the plugs out and this is what I see. These are the plugs with less than 45 min run time, a mix of local cruising and some 1/2-3/4 throttle pulls. Click for bigger pics  611EB52D-1AD9-481F-9FBA-100B6F816547 by Kris A, on Flickr Look at cylinder 1. In person it look dry and sooty to me, no shine to it at all and not wet. I checked all the bores again with the scope and looking at it now, they actually don't look wet (to me at least). It looks more like dry carbon. How the HELL am I getting such a rich hole in a throttle body injection setup? Could the fuel distribution really be THAT bad? Here is a close up of bank 2 where the wideband 02 reads from  360814F0-C306-4154-B5D2-0CF4777777AF by Kris A, on Flickr And bank 1:  0B1B1EED-F16E-47B3-BC19-249B552301F5 by Kris A, on Flickr I tried to do a leak down test but found my gauge cracked in the case. Getting dark and cold out now so that'll probably have to wait. I don't know what to think anymore. Here is my FLIKR account where you guys can see some more detailed pictures of the plugs and pictures I took of the borescope screen for each cylinder. The borescope is pretty grainy to begin with so the pictures of the screen aren't the greatest, but maybe someone will notice something I'm not understanding. FLIKR picture account
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/23/18 07:14 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: CSK]
#2595917
12/23/18 07:43 PM
12/23/18 07:43 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
|
Funny you say that, because I was just putting the wires back on and this practically new set of MSD wires feel like they are turning to goo. They felt like garbage from day 1 and just now, while popping cyl 8 back in, I tore the boot completely open just by pushing on it. They feel like rubber if you soak it in ethanol for a week.
It would be pretty funny if all this time it was just a garbage set of MSD wires. They really went down hill in quality. I remember when the boots used to feel rigid and sturdy, now it feels like you can pull them and rip them in half; like they're made from soft/stretchy silicon.
Would that really cause it to be sooty though? I figured wet from unburned fuel but I figured sooty would mean a rich mixture was being burned by adequate spark.
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/23/18 07:44 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2595932
12/23/18 08:34 PM
12/23/18 08:34 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
It's very hard to tell what is going on from those pictures. I mean, sometimes guys post pictures and they are far enough off that Ray Charles could see it, but for your deal, you need more pictures with much closer shots.
If you don't already have a spark plug read light, GET ONE. Mine is from 1980 and came in a Champion box. I've used it so long that it's like a baseball glove I've used forever. Soon, I'm going to buy a new one, and it will most likely be one of those tools that a doc looks in your ears and up your nose with.
Then spend some time learning to read plugs. It's worth every cent. I don't know a single tuner who doesn't read plugs. With that, and an O2 sensor you can tune stuff up.
BTW, I trust my plug reading before I trust a WB. I've seen them have issues. So in a crunch, I trust the plugs and if I'm still not feeling good about what I'm seeing, I pull the headers and look in the ports and drop a camer in the spark plug hole to see the piston tops.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2595939
12/23/18 08:39 PM
12/23/18 08:39 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
BTW, what plug is that? It looks like a ton of timing and the plug looks cold, especially if it's an NGK.
And I forgot to mention to swap the plug wire like mentioned above. I was thinking about other stuff and forgot.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2595949
12/23/18 08:52 PM
12/23/18 08:52 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
|
Mad, i’m going to order a plug reading light now. From what I have heard you are 100% right about the wideband. The guys over on the FITECH. page sometimes get pretty varied readings between their FITECH wide and aftermarket wide bands using to moniter. Every tuner has told me the only thing you can trust are the plugs.
I am actually going to pick up a whole new set of wires as it seems like these falling apart one by one anyway. Definitely not going with MSD this time.
The plugs are bkr7e’s, it’s what NGK recommended for pump gas.
Timing, I can’t say for sure as it takes some trial and error after reading the data logs since the FITECH diesn’t Allow you to set X timing for X boost. Instead it lets you plug in a timing value for WOT at zero boost and another value for I believe 14 psi IIRC. It ramps it up as a curve and you have to play around a little to get it where you want it at your peak PSI (mine being about 7.5). I was shooting for about 22 total with this latest tune but I won’t know till I upload the log.
From those bore scope pics, does it look like an oil control issue to you though? To me, it looks like carbon and not oil but i’m no expert and the borecope isn’t the greatest.
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/23/18 08:53 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
