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Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street #2585838
12/01/18 09:45 PM
12/01/18 09:45 PM
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Abilene, Texas
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I’ve had no problem with lots of miles on my AAR with stock iron rockers. Will the aluminums hold up as well? More companies make them I see. A customer needs a set for a street only car and I don’t want to put cheap Chinese alum ones on the car. I see they still make the Crane ductile iron ones. Will they fit under a stock valve cover?

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2585840
12/01/18 09:47 PM
12/01/18 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted By fastmark
I’ve had no problem with lots of miles on my AAR with stock iron rockers. Will the aluminums hold up as well? More companies make them I see. A customer needs a set for a street only car and I don’t want to put cheap Chinese alum ones on the car. I see they still make the Crane ductile iron ones. Will they fit under a stock valve cover?


Yes, I use Cranes under stock covers on my Stealths.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: GY3] #2585868
12/01/18 10:52 PM
12/01/18 10:52 PM
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Another vote for the adj mechanical, mine have banana groove shafts. I put together a driver 69, 340 4spd swinger. Put 5,500 miles on it this summer, rockers are the furthest thing from a issue in my mind. I did the whole car that way, nothing to fail......drove it 16hrs rnd trip this summer. Didn’t want anything to fail that could fail for no reason. Mechanical all the way. Just my opinion for wiw

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2585870
12/01/18 10:59 PM
12/01/18 10:59 PM
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didn't the AAR's come with a special offset intake rocker?

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: lewtot184] #2585874
12/01/18 11:13 PM
12/01/18 11:13 PM
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Yes...AAR/TA heads use an offset intake rocker. Those are the only rockers that fit the TA head.

Harland Sharp makes Aluminum TA rocker arm. The heads require a
.550 offset on the intake.

if you have any other rockers on the head then you do not have TA heads...

Last edited by 70AARcuda; 12/01/18 11:14 PM.

Tony

70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586002
12/02/18 04:53 AM
12/02/18 04:53 AM
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I’ve had great experience with the ProComp stainless bushed rollertip rockers. They are budget friendly and a decent option if you don’t feel comfortable with cheap aluminum ones.


LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: StealthWedge67] #2586034
12/02/18 10:26 AM
12/02/18 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted By StealthWedge67
I’ve had great experience with the ProComp stainless bushed rollertip rockers. They are budget friendly and a decent option if you don’t feel comfortable with cheap aluminum ones.


Will these fit under a stock cover with the oil baffle still intact?

The iron Cranes are about $450 without shafts and are just basically like stock hemi, 273 and TA rockers. I’m comfortable with a long life with those. What is the advantage of the alum ones except fort the roller tip? Do they wear out over time?

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586042
12/02/18 11:39 AM
12/02/18 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted By fastmark
Originally Posted By StealthWedge67
I’ve had great experience with the ProComp stainless bushed rollertip rockers. They are budget friendly and a decent option if you don’t feel comfortable with cheap aluminum ones.


Will these fit under a stock cover with the oil baffle still intact?

The iron Cranes are about $450 without shafts and are just basically like stock hemi, 273 and TA rockers. I’m comfortable with a long life with those. What is the advantage of the alum ones except fort the roller tip? Do they wear out over time?


The ProComp, PRW style stainless rockers fit under the valve covers with the baffle. The real advantage to aluminum rockers is the cost to machine them. That's it.

I personally don't use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft if I can avoid it.

If you are breaking rockers 99.999% of the time it's a geometry issue. The other .001% of the time it's a junk rocker. Mostly, it the junk bearings that fail first and kill the rocker.

I always repeat this but it's still not common enough to not say. If you are going to buy rockers, call Mike at B3 racing engines and have him sell you his geometry kit. He will tell you how to measure for it and it's a simple bolt on deal. It works and it's an absolute requirement IMO on anything other than a dead stock lift, dead stock rocker deal.

You can go to b3racingengines.com and read the tech pages he has. Worth every second of reading, and every penny of doing.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586181
12/02/18 04:21 PM
12/02/18 04:21 PM
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Abilene, Texas
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Thanks for all the advice. The problem I’m trying to resolve right now is with a customers car. She came to me with this problem statement, “ it just does not run right after this overhaul” problem. I have uncovered problems from the last three shops that she had work on it, plus the shop that patched it together to sell at the auction she bought it from. It’s a mess. I’m down to the motor now. My buds shop did the machine work and assembled the short block. Lucky for her, he came to me years ago looking for a crank and at least I sold her a four speed crank. The heads or block have been milled so much, the lifters have about .120 preload at rest. I’m sure it’s running with valves slightly open. They installed the heads and never checked preload. The shafts were still dirty and two rockers were swapped sides. It had very little power on the test drive. A stock intake fits so I’m wondering if they removed the dowel pins in the head to drop heads enough for the intake to fit. These guys were Chevy guys who disrespect mopars and don’t want to learn. The button fell out of the third member and ruined the axle bearing on one side. It had enough play in the axle for the backing plate to rub the drum. They just spaced the drum with washers! I guess people like this keep my busy!

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586206
12/02/18 05:25 PM
12/02/18 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted By fastmark
Thanks for all the advice. The problem I’m trying to resolve right now is with a customers car. She came to me with this problem statement, “ it just does not run right after this overhaul” problem. I have uncovered problems from the last three shops that she had work on it, plus the shop that patched it together to sell at the auction she bought it from. It’s a mess. I’m down to the motor now. My buds shop did the machine work and assembled the short block. Lucky for her, he came to me years ago looking for a crank and at least I sold her a four speed crank. The heads or block have been milled so much, the lifters have about .120 preload at rest. I’m sure it’s running with valves slightly open. They installed the heads and never checked preload. The shafts were still dirty and two rockers were swapped sides. It had very little power on the test drive. A stock intake fits so I’m wondering if they removed the dowel pins in the head to drop heads enough for the intake to fit. These guys were Chevy guys who disrespect mopars and don’t want to learn. The button fell out of the third member and ruined the axle bearing on one side. It had enough play in the axle for the backing plate to rub the drum. They just spaced the drum with washers! I guess people like this keep my busy!




Most likely the that .120 preload is coming from the stem height being too tall, rather than that much surfacing being done. The easiest fix for that is shorter pushrods. The correct way to do it is pull the heads and get the stem height in spec. If you go the shorter pushrod route you will still have geometry issues.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586241
12/02/18 06:53 PM
12/02/18 06:53 PM
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New York
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Paraphrasing Vizard: "If either valve does not close completely, that cylinder will not run."

The roller tip advantage isn't exactly as described. The curvature of a well-design pallet (such as the very special W2) and lever construction balances drag (scrubbing across the stem tip) with the need to create an oil film separating them (which requires motion, same as a crank journal). The pallet cannot "roll" across the stem, and should not.
I would suggest a B3 kit even with (nearly) stock lift, since mill, wear, valve seat condition etc. all affect installed geo.
Once you're sure the geo is as close as you need (including lateral alignment of each rocker to its stem), the reciprocating mass of the rocker tip can be safely reduced from both sides until what remains is only the stem tip width + 1/16" safety. No, it's not important, that's just my OCD.

don't use needle bearings on a reciprocating shaft if I can avoid it
X2, even with quality parts the needles are always at risk.


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Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586275
12/02/18 08:09 PM
12/02/18 08:09 PM
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Abilene, Texas
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I think the block had been milled too much. The reason I pulled the intake is because of the terrible leak where the corner of the head met the block. They did not put enough sealant in the corner under the intake pan gasket. When removed, the intake surface was way down from the top rail where the gasket is bolted too. I’m still going to do some more tearing down after I talk to the customer.

Last edited by fastmark; 12/02/18 11:26 PM.
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586416
12/03/18 12:52 AM
12/03/18 12:52 AM
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How far would you have to mill it to be .120 " long on the push rods ?
Seems unlikely , but I have been wrong before.
It would have to be a real butcher to do this kind of work and allow it out the shop door.

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586497
12/03/18 10:27 AM
12/03/18 10:27 AM
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It could have milled on a previous rebuild. This car was raced and hacked together to sell. They even restamped the block and sold it as matching number. It was milled again this time or the heads milled to get more compression the first time. Then you throw in a couple of valve jobs and the seats sink some. Then you have a cam with a slightly larger base circle. It all adds up to too much preload. I think lifters have around .060 preload anyway from the factory. I have not even checked to see if the pushrods are stock length yet. They could be off as well. I would not put it past these guys to pull the dowel pins out of the heads to slightly drop the head down enough to make the intake fit.

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586499
12/03/18 10:31 AM
12/03/18 10:31 AM
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And yes they were butchers. They let the car leave the shop with both rear axles that had .250 end play. The distributor had 80 degrees total advance. It would barely get to 2500 rpm.

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586504
12/03/18 11:08 AM
12/03/18 11:08 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Originally Posted By fastmark
And yes they were butchers. They let the car leave the shop with both rear axles that had .250 end play. The distributor had 80 degrees total advance. It would barely get to 2500 rpm.


Problem is they see themselves as problem solvers. Intake don't fit? Pull the dowels. Now it fits.

Kevin

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586506
12/03/18 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted By fastmark
It could have milled on a previous rebuild. This car was raced and hacked together to sell. They even restamped the block and sold it as matching number. It was milled again this time or the heads milled to get more compression the first time. Then you throw in a couple of valve jobs and the seats sink some. Then you have a cam with a slightly larger base circle. It all adds up to too much preload. I think lifters have around .060 preload anyway from the factory. I have not even checked to see if the pushrods are stock length yet. They could be off as well. I would not put it past these guys to pull the dowel pins out of the heads to slightly drop the head down enough to make the intake fit.



Don't know how far you can move the head down with the dowel pins out. You still have to get the bolts in the head and that will limit how far down the head can go, and it ain't much.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586548
12/03/18 12:52 PM
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I agree it does not get much but with these guys, who knows. I’ll pull them soon. I just have to talk to customer. I’m so tired of calling her with bad news

Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fastmark] #2586633
12/03/18 03:21 PM
12/03/18 03:21 PM
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If I had seen that kind of stuff I woulda just pulled the motor, and pulled it completely apart as step one.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Iron vs alum rocker arm for the street [Re: fast68plymouth] #2586772
12/03/18 09:20 PM
12/03/18 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
If I had seen that kind of stuff I woulda just pulled the motor, and pulled it completely apart as step one.


I imagine that’s what going to happen. I’m confident the short block was done properly but the more bad things I found they did on the rest of the repairs they did, I’m sure they could not even properly put on the heads or even keep it clean during assembly.

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