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Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! #254881
03/15/09 07:41 PM
03/15/09 07:41 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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69L78Nova Offline OP
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Took the 68 Barracuda to the track today. Something isnt right. The basics of the combo are a 360, Edelbrock RPM 65cc heads (OOTB), 11.2:1, 292/509 cam, Weiand X-celerator, 750DP, Hooker 1 5/8" headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, Holley Blue pump (still running 5/16" line), 4-speed, 4.10 SG on 275/60-15DR's. The car was hooking fine launching at 4800 rpm. Ill list the details of the timeslip below...

60'---1.841
330'---5.374
1/8---8.408
1/8 MPH---82.98
1000'---10.912
1000' MPH---95.00
1/4 ET---13.125
1/4 MPH---106.03

That was the best run of the day. I made a total of 6 passes and each one got slower and slower.
The only thing I changed was I went from a Action Plus to the X-celerator manifold, and installed a new timing set. It sounds like a stupid question, but could I have installed the timing set a tooth off or something or could it be running out of fuel on the top end because of the 5/16" line? It has 3-5in of vacuum at 900-1000rpm. It just seems lazy. It wont even break the tires loose in first gear on the street. Anyone have any ideas? I figured this thing would run way better than what it did.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254882
03/15/09 07:46 PM
03/15/09 07:46 PM
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Oregon City, OR
Baxter61 Offline
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are you running lean? whats your initial timing at? that cam likes timing. whats your cranking compression? check the basics first.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Baxter61] #254883
03/15/09 07:48 PM
03/15/09 07:48 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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69L78Nova Offline OP
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Im running 36* all in by 2600rpm. Im gonna do a compression test in a little bit and see what I can find out. The plugs looked good after every pass

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254884
03/15/09 07:59 PM
03/15/09 07:59 PM
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Upper Midwest
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Are you running KB pistons? If so back off your timing and try it. They don't seem to like a whole bunch of advance. Did you degree the cam in?? Give it about 4 degrees advance and bring the power band down somewhat.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: MoparforLife] #254885
03/15/09 08:11 PM
03/15/09 08:11 PM
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Montana
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Sounds like a timing issue to me also. With my 360 I timed it at 32* all in at 3000rpm. You may have to double check the timing chain and gears, the dots could be stamped wrong.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Posest] #254886
03/15/09 09:00 PM
03/15/09 09:00 PM
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Az
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You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254887
03/15/09 09:05 PM
03/15/09 09:05 PM
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Az
Crizila Offline
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You also have engine issues with only 3-5 " of vacuum at idle. You should have atleast 12" @ idle with your combo. Sounds like you have a pretty hefty vacuum leak somewhere.


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254888
03/15/09 09:10 PM
03/15/09 09:10 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:

You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.




He has a traction problem alright! He states above that he can't even break em loose in first on the street! The fuel line is the last of his worries. Degree/advance the cam, make sure no vacuum leak.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Posest] #254889
03/15/09 09:37 PM
03/15/09 09:37 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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69L78Nova Offline OP
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Just checked vacuum at idle again. Was around 3-4in at 900rpm. Cranking compression was 140 across all 8

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254890
03/15/09 09:38 PM
03/15/09 09:38 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:

Just checked vacuum at idle again. Was around 3-4in at 900rpm. Cranking compression was 140 across all 8




Do you know what your vacuum was BEFORE the timing chain swap???

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254891
03/15/09 09:40 PM
03/15/09 09:40 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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It was always around 3-4 inches of vacuum at 1000rpm. Even before the timing set and intake manifold swap. Im baffled

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254892
03/15/09 09:41 PM
03/15/09 09:41 PM
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So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.




He has a traction problem alright! He states above that he can't even break em loose in first on the street! The fuel line is the last of his worries. Degree/advance the cam, make sure no vacuum leak.






I agree, check for vauum leaks, and degree cam.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254893
03/15/09 09:44 PM
03/15/09 09:44 PM
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So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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Quote:

The only thing I changed was I went from a Action Plus to the X-celerator manifold, and installed a new timing set.




Some gear sets have been known to be drilled incorrectly.

You never mention what you ran before.

Is it possible you bent a valve, changing the timing set? Did you turn the crank when the cam gear was off?

Last edited by HealthServices; 03/15/09 09:46 PM.

Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: HealthServices] #254894
03/15/09 10:12 PM
03/15/09 10:12 PM
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the boonies
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somethings wrong. my old 340 with 10.2:1 compression and the 282 cam had 8" or so vacuum and the cranking compression was 175-180 lbs or so

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: aarcuda] #254895
03/15/09 11:02 PM
03/15/09 11:02 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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69L78Nova Offline OP
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Well, I just pulled it apart, and the timing marks are a half a tooth off. Either way I turn them, I cant get the dots to line up correctly. This thing never had any more than 3-4 inches of vacuum at idle, even before the timing set and intake swap. Could there be a problem with the cam itself, considering MP's reputation of poor quality products within the past few years? This was a used cam that I got from a friend of mine that "said" he kept all of the lifters in line with their respective lobes

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254896
03/15/09 11:17 PM
03/15/09 11:17 PM
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Oregon City, OR
Baxter61 Offline
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you need to degree your cam in. I put mine in at 108 in my 340 that was right around 10.5:1 and had about 150 cranking compression. It liked the timing to be locked out at 36* and I could get about 9 to 11 inches of vacuum out of it, thats the only way it ever ran right. In small blocks, that cam likes the timing to be locked out. and if you never degree your cam, you'll never know where its at. dont go by "half a tooth off" buy a cam key set, and put it where you want it. anywhere from 108 to 104 is ok with that cam.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Baxter61] #254897
03/15/09 11:21 PM
03/15/09 11:21 PM
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renton, Washington
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also double ck the cam itself maybe its flat... my stock long block 340 with manifolds ran 12,s..stock converter and street tires.. put an LD 340 on it with a 750 DP and a small solid in it... low 12,s all day.. dan

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: ph23vo] #254898
03/15/09 11:31 PM
03/15/09 11:31 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac.

As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.

Last edited by 64Post; 03/15/09 11:54 PM.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254899
03/15/09 11:33 PM
03/15/09 11:33 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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I dont get where the vacuum leak would be coming from though. I have had two different intake manifolds on here. I forgot to add I am still running the stock stamped steel rocker arms. I figured Id throw that in as well

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254900
03/16/09 12:24 AM
03/16/09 12:24 AM
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So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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After you get the cam gear straighten out, do a leak down. Just to make sure you did not kiss a valve in the past.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254901
03/16/09 07:05 AM
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Quote:

I dont get where the vacuum leak would be coming from though. I have had two different intake manifolds on here. I forgot to add I am still running the stock stamped steel rocker arms. I figured Id throw that in as well



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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254902
03/16/09 09:58 AM
03/16/09 09:58 AM
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Brookeville, Md
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Quote:

You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.




You don't need a 3/8 line, I've seen and driven 11 second cars w/ 5/16 line and a mechanical pump. Check your plugs and see if you are running lean. You might back the timing down a hair. What jets are your running? And drag radials aren't going to hook as well as real slicks I don't care what anybody says.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254903
03/16/09 10:19 AM
03/16/09 10:19 AM
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Brookeville, Md
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1/4 MPH---106.03
that's should be good for mid 12's easy. I'm inclinded to thing you have a timing-carb issue. Use a vacuum gauge to tune your carb. Even w/ a 509 cam you should be able to get 6-8 at idle. Do you still have a choke on the car? I've seen them suck shut or at least restrict air flow. What are you shifting at?

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254904
03/16/09 11:21 AM
03/16/09 11:21 AM
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Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly. His problems are much bigger than 3-4 degrees in ignition or cam timing. If he doesn't have a fuel delivery problem now, he definately will when/if he gets his "other problem(s)" sorted out. And speaking of fuel, we just got a lot more to feed this thread - "used cam". Gee, I wonder if that's when his problems started??? "140 psi cranking compression" - A tired 8:1 360 motor will deliver 20 PSI more than that - unless of course the cam timing is off, he only let it register one pump, cranking speed was 300 rpm, etc, etc, etc. " timing marks won't line up - off 1/2 tooth" - Pretty remote guess that the gears are miss-marked. R-U sure you are lining up the "0's" and not any other marks (advanced / retard marks) on the gears?? Here is a good tip: Go back to the last thing you changed that made the car have 3-5" of vacuum at idle and you will find your problem!


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254905
03/16/09 12:09 PM
03/16/09 12:09 PM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Quote:

Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly. His problems are much bigger than 3-4 degrees in ignition or cam timing. If he doesn't have a fuel delivery problem now, he definately will when/if he gets his "other problem(s)" sorted out. And speaking of fuel, we just got a lot more to feed this thread - "used cam". Gee, I wonder if that's when his problems started??? "140 psi cranking compression" - A tired 8:1 360 motor will deliver 20 PSI more than that - unless of course the cam timing is off, he only let it register one pump, cranking speed was 300 rpm, etc, etc, etc. " timing marks won't line up - off 1/2 tooth" - Pretty remote guess that the gears are miss-marked. R-U sure you are lining up the "0's" and not any other marks (advanced / retard marks) on the gears?? Here is a good tip: Go back to the last thing you changed that made the car have 3-5" of vacuum at idle and you will find your problem!




Agree a low compression engine + a 509 cam = dog out of the gate.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254906
03/16/09 07:32 PM
03/16/09 07:32 PM
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Glendale, AZ
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Its not a low compression engine. Its 11.26 to 1. The compression test was done with 5 hits on the gauge, all plugs removed. From the day this motor was built, it never had any vacuum at idle, and always ran like a rat.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254907
03/16/09 07:42 PM
03/16/09 07:42 PM
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the boonies
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my current engine, a 416 sb at 9.7:1 compression and a 565/575 lift cam cranks at 170-175 cranking compression.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254908
03/16/09 07:49 PM
03/16/09 07:49 PM
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Quote:

I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac.

As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.




Mine isn't much better but I pull 6" with a 275/275 @.050 solid and that's with initial timing at 20 BTDC. I have the same problem right now too in the fact that mine doesn't seem to want to pull much past 6800 and should hit 7k immediately. Hope you have good luck with it.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: W5Duster436] #254909
03/16/09 07:52 PM
03/16/09 07:52 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Cranking compression (especially with a performance duration cam) and static compression are two very different things. Don't let that throw you off.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254910
03/16/09 08:00 PM
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Brookeville, Md
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140 psi cranking compression My almost 9:1 440 had 150 that's what I basing my "low compression" on. The MP cams (484 and 509) bleed compression. That's why you need a "11:1" motor to start with.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254911
03/16/09 08:05 PM
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Let's say that he's had heads milled etc and running .100 or some strange preload with those stock rockers and the valves aren't closing all the way especially on the top end?


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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: W5Duster436] #254912
03/16/09 09:23 PM
03/16/09 09:23 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:

Quote:

I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac.

As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.




Mine isn't much better but I pull 6" with a 275/275 @.050 solid and that's with initial timing at 20 BTDC. I have the same problem right now too in the fact that mine doesn't seem to want to pull much past 6800 and should hit 7k immediately. Hope you have good luck with it.




You could have a fuel delivery problem. If you have enough head on it to use that cam, it shouldn't nose over.

I'm running 24* initial just to get off the transition circuit onto the idle circuit and I'm still running rich. It's a fairly new motor but I think I hit 6500 a few times last summer. Mine ought to spin up to 7K as well.

I had as much bad luck as a guy could have putting this one together. It fought us every step of the way. How 'bout it Lyle? I mean really, when was the last time you've seen a core shifted cam??

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254913
03/16/09 09:47 PM
03/16/09 09:47 PM
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Plug the numbers into an online calculator and solve for theoretical static, cranking and dynamic compression; If you have them that is.

Last edited by 64Post; 03/16/09 09:47 PM.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254914
03/16/09 11:17 PM
03/16/09 11:17 PM
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las vegas
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Quote:

Cranking compression (especially with a performance duration cam) and static compression are two very different things. Don't let that throw you off.




plus cranking compression and vacuum will be different at higher elevations...


Tony

70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254915
03/17/09 07:24 AM
03/17/09 07:24 AM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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what numbers are you looking for? My friend had a 360 Dart much like yours and he ran 12.50-60's with a bigger cam and roller rockers. I'd say your MPH is pretty good for mid 12's. You might be loosing time at lauch-mid track. If it were falling off at the top end your mph would be lower.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254916
03/17/09 08:20 AM
03/17/09 08:20 AM
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Quote:

Its not a low compression engine. Its 11.26 to 1. The compression test was done with 5 hits on the gauge, all plugs removed. From the day this motor was built, it never had any vacuum at idle, and always ran like a rat.




Not that its going to solve all of your problem but; How do you know your compression is 11.26:1?

I just did a quick calculation assuming flat top pistons at zero deck that have 5cc reliefs. A typical 0.039" thick compressed head gasket with a 4.150 bore and the edelbrock 65cc heads.

This claculates to 10.5:1. Did you cc the heads? they could be bigger and where are the pistons in relation to the deck? If the heads have bigger than advertised chambers or the pistons are below the deck you could very easily be down in the 9's on compression. To get the advertised compression of almost all pistons on the market for a 360 will require the deck of the block to be machined quite a bit.


Dave Clement Pembroke, MA 03 PT Cruiser GT Turbo 99 Dakota SLT+ CC 4x4 68 Barracuda sport coupe http://home.comcast.net/~dgc333/
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: dgc333] #254917
03/17/09 10:52 AM
03/17/09 10:52 AM
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Az
Crizila Offline
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Cranking ( dynamic) compression pressure is way too low for that cam. Should be in the 180psi range. Not likely your C.R.is 11.26:1. This would explain poor vacuum and soft bottom end while still having a decent speed - 106mph. The slugs are probably .015 - .020" down in the holes. BTW, most reputable cam Mfg's will give you a suggested dynamic compression pressure for a particular cam. It is much more important than the static number - but much less impressive


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: dgc333] #254918
03/17/09 11:10 AM
03/17/09 11:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 731
Aurora Colorado
B
BELVEDERE67 Offline
mopar addict
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Aurora Colorado
Seems as tho that vacuum reading is where this issue is. But there are many reasons that it might be low. Since you changed the manifold, I'd go there. I agree that a 4 degree change in timing will not change much but the timing chain "line up" issue does need to be changed. You are going to have to open it up to check all these items. Pull the manifold and ck for leaks, check cam for wear (possible lobe going away). Redo the timing chain or get a new one and degreee cam. Put it back together and run again.
Fuel line is ok but make sure that your fuel pump is up to par. These are difficult things to check but all must be done. There is not enough vacuum and you need to check why. The fact that the car got slower as the day went on does point to an issue. I should be running better and winding up better that it is.
There is alot to check but if you want to solve the issue I don't really see another way. I helped 64Post with his issues and we are still chasing the problems. Just my

Last edited by BELVEDERE67; 03/17/09 11:16 AM.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: BELVEDERE67] #254919
03/17/09 12:01 PM
03/17/09 12:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,470
renton, Washington
ph23vo Offline
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renton, Washington
also my car liked 28 degrees of initial timing that was with a 288-530 GK solid cam, stock oem longblock 68 barracuda had LD340, 750 DP, stock manifolds [original exh system still on car], stock aircleaner, street tires [F 70 14], stock converter, 4;56 gears, stock weight ran hi 12,s@ 108..13.2 103 with 3;23 gears... dan

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254920
03/17/09 12:28 PM
03/17/09 12:28 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Quote:

Cranking ( dynamic) compression pressure is way too low for that cam. Should be in the 180psi range. Not likely your C.R.is 11.26:1. This would explain poor vacuum and soft bottom end while still having a decent speed - 106mph. The slugs are probably .015 - .020" down in the holes. BTW, most reputable cam Mfg's will give you a suggested dynamic compression pressure for a particular cam. It is much more important than the static number - but much less impressive




That's why I suggested getting all 3 compression numbers.

Cranking CR should fall within a certain range if all of the factors are known. If it's low, it suggests other problems -- one of them being incorrectly calc'd static CR. Worn rings and an incorrectly installed cam are some others.

Dynamic CR will always be lower than static CR as it's based on the intake valve closing point. It's conceivable that the OP has a DCR of 6.5:1. That's not going to get it at the track.

My point being that even if the OP re-starts the process back at the cam the end results could still be the same -- a general lack of compression. I'd like to see all numbers work out to a decent CR. His SCR has got be off by a good 1.0-1.5, IMO. Plus, if the intake valve is closing late to being off a tooth that compounds the problem. So there might be a combination of issues going on here.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254921
03/17/09 02:42 PM
03/17/09 02:42 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Well, I suggest you fix the obvious problems first. The 5/16" fuel line you are running is too small. That blue Holley pump you are using has a 3/8" NPT on the "in" and "out" for a reason. I'm not sure what a decent CR means, but with that cam ( it is an older grind ), you my very well not be able to run todays pump gas by the time you get the DCR where it should be to make power in the 3-4 grand area.


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254922
03/17/09 02:54 PM
03/17/09 02:54 PM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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"The 5/16" fuel line you are running is too small"
I'll say it again your fuel line is fine. You can run 11's w/ a 5/16 ine and mech pump...even w/ a 440-6 in a B-body. If it's fuel issue you either have a clogged filter or you car is lean. changing the line to 3/8 won't do squat.
If you have 140 across the borad you have a compression problem...either your valves are a tad open or you don't have the 11:1 you thought you had. 106 is decent mph. Your 60 foot looks to be a tad high. I'd think you should be in the 1.65 range. If you can find a way to cut those 2 tenths at the gate you'll drop your trap et by 4. What squirters are you running? 31's would probably work...what jets? I'd think 78-86's would be a start and as for the PV if you are only pulling 3-4 lbs, I'm not sure where you'd start w/ that.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254923
03/17/09 02:57 PM
03/17/09 02:57 PM
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Indiana
W5Duster436 Offline
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Just curious, were the compression tests that yielded 140 done with the carb open or closed? I can see the 140 if the throttle was not strung open.


'70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone)
'71 Dodge D100
'70 Dodge W100
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254924
03/17/09 03:00 PM
03/17/09 03:00 PM
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Baltimore/Denver
Quote:

"The 5/16" fuel line you are running is too small"
I'll say it again your fuel line is fine. You can run 11's w/ a 5/16 ine and mech pump...even w/ a 440-6 in a B-body. If it's fuel issue you either have a clogged filter or you car is lean. changing the line to 3/8 won't do squat.




I agree. I'm running a 450" B engine with CNC Eddys, a big solid cam a 950 HP with a 5/16 fuel line. Fuel delivery is not a problem.

Quote:

If you have 140 across the borad you have a compression problem...either your valves are a tad open or you don't have the 11:1 you thought you had.




Also agree.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254925
03/17/09 03:25 PM
03/17/09 03:25 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Quote:

I'm not sure what a decent CR means,




Generally, I'd say a cranking pressure in the 180-185 range, and a DCR of 8.5 with the aluminum heads.

Just for grins, I ran my combo as installed vs. having the intake valve close 4* later. Here are the numbers: 12.4 static; 9.15 dynamic; 189# cranking. 12.4 static; 8.85 dynamic; 181# cranking. All @ 6000 ft. altitude.

I use this online calculator...www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Last edited by 64Post; 03/17/09 03:27 PM.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254926
03/17/09 05:14 PM
03/17/09 05:14 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Straight from a very well known carb MFG. " When your car isn't performing, alswys carry out the gas can test first - it's one of the least expensive diagnostic aids you will encuonter. Keep in mind that valve springs, ignition systems, torque convertors, even engines have been changed, when all the time the fuel system was at fault". I give on the line size ( but it's too small ) - if you wanna run in the 12's, your gonna have to fill a 1 gallon can in 35 seconds or less - from Barry Grant, Holley, and others. If you can do it with a 5/16" line, God bless you! Hope everyone remembers this thread when there motor goes lean through the second MPH lights and sections of the top ring lands on their hypereutectic pistons start exiting out their collectors! Been there - done that!!!!!! Here is a web sight with a ton of really good on line calculators: http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254927
03/17/09 05:32 PM
03/17/09 05:32 PM
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Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
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I've also supported 550hp with a factory mechanical and 5/16 line. Many lines now have kinks and guy dont cut them properly so the flow is much lower than it should be. That fact is, overkill sells, and in many cases, meaning a car that runs in the 12s or high 11s, they simply dont need that much pump or line. In somecases, you add so much volume in the line the milder pumps have trouble pumping against the inertia of the fuel in the line in first gear.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: moper] #254928
03/17/09 06:51 PM
03/17/09 06:51 PM
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Az
Crizila Offline
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overkill = cheap security. If you are pushing the edges of the envelope, you will only go lean once! Could I see a show of hands of those on this thread that even have a fuel pressure guage in their car?


Fastest 300
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254929
03/17/09 07:04 PM
03/17/09 07:04 PM
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Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
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So Cal
Quote:

overkill = cheap security. If you are pushing the edges of the envelope, you will only go lean once! Could I see a show of hands of those on this thread that even have a fuel pressure guage in their car?




for two cars

but I've seen many a car run 11s with just 5/16 lines

Last edited by HealthServices; 03/18/09 12:40 AM.

Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254930
03/17/09 07:17 PM
03/17/09 07:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Montana
P
Posest Offline
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Montana
Me too. Both cars in fact.
Shawn

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254931
03/17/09 07:23 PM
03/17/09 07:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
6
69L78Nova Offline OP
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Theyre not flat tops. They have a .050" quench dome, and a .039" head gasket, sitting .009 in the hole...with a .050" recess machined in the chamber

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254932
03/17/09 11:11 PM
03/17/09 11:11 PM
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Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

overkill = cheap security. If you are pushing the edges of the envelope, you will only go lean once! Could I see a show of hands of those on this thread that even have a fuel pressure guage in their car?




for two cars




Dude, is that Hitler, or what???

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254933
03/17/09 11:22 PM
03/17/09 11:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
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Ippon

Judo Referee Signals

http://judoinfo.com/referee.htm



Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254934
03/17/09 11:27 PM
03/17/09 11:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
master
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Quote:

Theyre not flat tops. They have a .050" quench dome, and a .039" head gasket, sitting .009 in the hole...with a .050" recess machined in the chamber




So do you have all the piston numbers to run the calcs (dome volume, valve reliefs, chamber volume, etc.) starting with the static CR? Cam card?

You can also work backwards using your known cranking pressure of 140# to come up with a theoretical static CR.

I'm at a loss to explain how a small fuel line effects cranking compression readings. Unless of course the motor already went lean and pinged itself on to life support.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: moper] #254935
03/17/09 11:31 PM
03/17/09 11:31 PM
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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64Post  Offline
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Quote:

I've also supported 550hp with a factory mechanical and 5/16 line. Many lines now have kinks and guy dont cut them properly so the flow is much lower than it should be. That fact is, overkill sells, and in many cases, meaning a car that runs in the 12s or high 11s, they simply dont need that much pump or line. In somecases, you add so much volume in the line the milder pumps have trouble pumping against the inertia of the fuel in the line in first gear.




There have been many threads on that subject. There is also the matter of friction loss in the lines. The more pressure you force through the line the higher the friction loss.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254936
03/17/09 11:56 PM
03/17/09 11:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
6
69L78Nova Offline OP
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Im working on getting a degree wheel. But heres another "long shot". Edelbrock recommends the use of adjusteble rocker arms when using cams with a greater-than-stock lift. There has to be a reason for this. Since Im running the MP509, is it possible the rocker stands themselves might not be machined at the same height as say a stock cast iron head, therefore causing the valves to "hang open"? Much like a Chevy with the rockers adjusted too tight? I do have experience with that scenario and the effect is great. I should have a degree wheel tomorrow and Ill take a crack at it.

But who here thinks I could benefit from an adjustable rocker setup? Id like to rule that out as a possibility as well. I appreciate all of the replies. Its all very interesting. I just hope I can get to the bottom of this.

Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254937
03/18/09 12:19 AM
03/18/09 12:19 AM
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Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
HealthServices  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
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So Cal
Quote:

Im working on getting a degree wheel. But heres another "long shot". Edelbrock recommends the use of adjusteble rocker arms when using cams with a greater-than-stock lift. There has to be a reason for this. Since Im running the MP509, is it possible the rocker stands themselves might not be machined at the same height as say a stock cast iron head, therefore causing the valves to "hang open"? Much like a Chevy with the rockers adjusted too tight? I do have experience with that scenario and the effect is great. I should have a degree wheel tomorrow and Ill take a crack at it.

But who here thinks I could benefit from an adjustable rocker setup? Id like to rule that out as a possibility as well. I appreciate all of the replies. Its all very interesting. I just hope I can get to the bottom of this.




I don’t understand something since I know very little about small blocks and valvetrain setup.

  • This is a hydraulic cam

  • It uses shaft rockers right?.

  • You have aftermarket heads.

  • You have non adjustable rocker arms?



    How is preload done on each lifter?


  • Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254938
    03/18/09 12:22 AM
    03/18/09 12:22 AM
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    Glendale, AZ
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    69L78Nova Offline OP
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    69L78Nova  Offline OP
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    Yes, it uses shaft mounted non-adjustable rockers, it is a hyd cam, and Edelbrock heads. Both small block and big block Chrysler used this setup. Im thinking that could be contributing to my problem as well.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254939
    03/18/09 12:26 AM
    03/18/09 12:26 AM
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    HealthServices Offline
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    So you checked preload and adjusted it by using shims?


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254940
    03/18/09 12:28 AM
    03/18/09 12:28 AM
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    you can run the stock non adjustable rockers with the eddy heads with a hydraulic cam...

    been there...done that...


    Tony

    70 AARCuda Vitamin C
    71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
    71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
    71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 70AARcuda] #254941
    03/18/09 12:31 AM
    03/18/09 12:31 AM
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    Sorry, not aware you could do that. I'll have to do a search on how you guys do preload then. I've always check the geometry, adjusted the pushrod length accordingly, and used adjustable rockers to set preload.

    Last edited by HealthServices; 03/18/09 12:36 AM.

    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254942
    03/18/09 12:31 AM
    03/18/09 12:31 AM
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,327
    Glendale, AZ
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    69L78Nova Offline OP
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    Quote:

    So you checked preload and adjusted it by using shims?




    No. I just bolted them down.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254943
    03/18/09 12:41 AM
    03/18/09 12:41 AM
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    64Post Offline
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    Quote:

    I've always check the geometry, adjusted the pushrod length accordingly, and used adjustable rockers to set preload.






    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254944
    03/18/09 12:53 AM
    03/18/09 12:53 AM
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    64Post Offline
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    64Post  Offline
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    Quote:

    Im working on getting a degree wheel. But heres another "long shot". Edelbrock recommends the use of adjusteble rocker arms when using cams with a greater-than-stock lift. There has to be a reason for this. Since Im running the MP509, is it possible the rocker stands themselves might not be machined at the same height as say a stock cast iron head, therefore causing the valves to "hang open"? Much like a Chevy with the rockers adjusted too tight? I do have experience with that scenario and the effect is great. I should have a degree wheel tomorrow and Ill take a crack at it.

    But who here thinks I could benefit from an adjustable rocker setup? Id like to rule that out as a possibility as well. I appreciate all of the replies. Its all very interesting. I just hope I can get to the bottom of this.




    Might be a "short shot" after all. Don't touch anything yet. Start by pulling the rocker covers. There are several ways to check for this issue. Compressed air into the cylinder via the spark plug hole being the easiest. Bring no. 1 up to TDC on the compression stroke and hit it with 100 psi of air. If it's leaking you'll hear it.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254945
    03/18/09 01:15 AM
    03/18/09 01:15 AM
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    Glendale, AZ
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    69L78Nova Offline OP
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    The engine wouldnt have to be running for an accurate test? I mean so the lifters would be completely pumped up

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254946
    03/18/09 08:29 AM
    03/18/09 08:29 AM
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    Mr.Yuck Offline
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    Quote:

    The engine wouldnt have to be running for an accurate test? I mean so the lifters would be completely pumped up




    your lifters should still be pumped up, they don't go flat when you shut the engine off. The forced air method is a great way to tell if everything is right. This is how I learned I burned up #3 in a S/C'd 440. You'll here the air blowing into the block if you have a leak. Have you puled the cover and slowly turned the engine over watching each valve open and close? I mean the car is running, you did pull 106mph, which isn't bad for your set-up.
    How is your carb set-up?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254947
    03/18/09 09:52 AM
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    Crizila Offline
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    Rocker shaft stands will be the same height for both Eddy and cast iron heads. Yes, you can use the stock non-adjustable rockers and push rods with your cam, but the rocker arm geometry will be slightly screwed up. Shiming the shafts might fix it. As long as you have some lifter perload without bottoming the lifters out ( highly unlikely you will do that ) things will work. Also highly unlikely you have burned / bent valves when you ran 106 - and the compression is the same ( although low )accross the board. Used cam::: Did you verify it is what the seller said it is? Did you check part numbers / mike the lobes, or at least eye-ball them and the lifters when you changed manifolds?


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254948
    03/18/09 10:25 AM
    03/18/09 10:25 AM
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    Glendale, AZ
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    The rocker arm geometry will be screwed up in what way? I did verify it was the .509 when I got the cam. I did mic the lobes

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254949
    03/18/09 10:42 AM
    03/18/09 10:42 AM
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    Quote:

    The rocker arm geometry will be screwed up in what way? I did verify it was the .509 when I got the cam. I did mic the lobes




    yeah I know plenty of folks running e-haeds and using stock valve train....

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254950
    03/18/09 10:46 AM
    03/18/09 10:46 AM
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    Ok, but how will the geometry be screwed up?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254951
    03/18/09 10:54 AM
    03/18/09 10:54 AM
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    Quote:

    Ok, but how will the geometry be screwed up?



    I don't know how it would be. It's not like you have switched to those "chevy style" heads.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254952
    03/18/09 11:17 AM
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    If you are not sure where you are at with your carb, give me the list number on the choke tower ( probably 4779-something ) and I will be happy to give you the particulars on it - as it came from Holley. This would be a good starting point for you and eliminate the carb as your problem.


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254953
    03/18/09 11:28 AM
    03/18/09 11:28 AM
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    It is a 4779

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254954
    03/18/09 11:51 AM
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    Not sure if the base circle on the 509 cam is the same as the one you were running, but anytime you go over a half inch lift the rocker arm to valve stem contact pattern should be checked, as the rocker arm tip is often no longer centered on the valve stem as it travels through it's lift cycle - which necessitates a change in pushrod lengths, shimming the rocker shafts, etc. It should at least be checked along with rocker arm to valve spring retainer clearance. BTW, a non-roller tip rocker arm does not negate this problem. Although incorrect valve train geometry has many bad side affects, don't think it's your 3-5" vacuum and 140 cranking PSI problems. Did I mention your fuel line is too small - - - - -!


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254955
    03/18/09 12:04 PM
    03/18/09 12:04 PM
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    On shaft rockers, the only thing that will affect geometry is the valve job. Factory Edelbrock valve jobs are.. less than satisfactory for my taste. I have the heads corrected and they usually find issues.

    Cri - not only do I have fuel presure gages, I gots the Snap On top of the line diagnostic ones AND know how to read them . Not the questionable Auto Meter ones. I do so when I set up fuel ssytems, tune NOS systems, have a no start on EFI, or when I believe there is a fuel problem. I dont beleive there is in this case.


    Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254956
    03/18/09 12:06 PM
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    If it's a 4779 with no numbers after that it's the first version of that carb - they have since made a -1,-2,-3,-4. That don't make your carb bad though. Specs: Mod. 4150, 750CFM, pri jets = 75, sec jets = 76, power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems. ), pri discharge nozzle = .025, sec discharge nozzle = .032, square carb with all 4 holes @ 1 11/16" dia. Thatil be $5!


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254957
    03/18/09 12:13 PM
    03/18/09 12:13 PM
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    Whoops! Mine is a -2

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254958
    03/18/09 12:21 PM
    03/18/09 12:21 PM
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    "power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time -"
    This is what is was thinking and would make it terrible out of the gate but ok top end since you want all that gas.
    FWIW I made the mistake using a 509 in a stock 72 440 once. I used a 750 holley vacuum carb and it never ran right due to the poor vacuum signal that cam makes. Now full throttle on the highway, no problem.
    Check your PV...make sure you have the right one.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: moper] #254959
    03/18/09 12:24 PM
    03/18/09 12:24 PM
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    Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc. Running too small a fuel line won't affect it though.


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254960
    03/18/09 12:27 PM
    03/18/09 12:27 PM
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    Quote:

    Whoops! Mine is a -2



    -2 has 70-80 and 6.5PV stock...still dumping gas. Try and get 6-7lbs of vacuum if you can. Then you might could run a 4.5PV. I'd also go up on the jets too. I ran 74-82's in a mild 340 w/ a 750DP

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254961
    03/18/09 12:35 PM
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    Quote:

    power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems...




    Yeah... and one of the other problems is he may have washed out the rings -- hence his poor cranking pressure.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254962
    03/18/09 12:38 PM
    03/18/09 12:38 PM
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    Quote:

    Quote:

    power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems...




    Yeah... and one of the other problems is he may have washed out the rings -- hence his poor cranking pressure.




    Ding ding ding...winner That can happen. Does your oild smell like gas, or has it ever?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254963
    03/18/09 12:45 PM
    03/18/09 12:45 PM
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    There is just a TINY little trace of fuel smell in the oil. It only appears when I use 110 octane though. Pump gas=no smell

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254964
    03/18/09 12:58 PM
    03/18/09 12:58 PM
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    have you done anything to the carb?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254965
    03/18/09 01:07 PM
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    At this point I suspect the rings primarily and perhaps the cam is off about 4*. The consensus seems to be that the valves aren't likely being held open. I think a leak down test is in order. Can you still drive the car at this point?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254966
    03/18/09 01:07 PM
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    No, just rebuilt it. Has 74/77 jets in it. I have a 61-99 jet kit, but I guess with the low vacuum it would be hard to tune correctly

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254967
    03/18/09 01:21 PM
    03/18/09 01:21 PM
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    -2 version : Pri jets = 70, sec jets = 80, Power valve = 6.5, Pri nozzle = .028, sec nozzle = .031. All else the same.


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    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254968
    03/18/09 01:26 PM
    03/18/09 01:26 PM
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    Put the carb back to stock specs and don't screw with it for now.


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254969
    03/18/09 01:28 PM
    03/18/09 01:28 PM
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    Quote:

    No, just rebuilt it. Has 74/77 jets in it. I have a 61-99 jet kit, but I guess with the low vacuum it would be hard to tune correctly




    I'd go up on the jets...have you tweaked it w/ a vacuum gauge? and yeah you need to get the right PV in to tune it. I bet if you could get the vacuum up, went with a 4.0 PV and upped you jets you'd pick up on the low end, thus netting better et and w/ the extra jetting in the secondaries pick up a little up top as well. Anybody know how low PV's go? I think the lowest I've ever used was 4.5

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254970
    03/18/09 01:35 PM
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    Quote:

    Quote:

    No, just rebuilt it. Has 74/77 jets in it. I have a 61-99 jet kit, but I guess with the low vacuum it would be hard to tune correctly




    I'd go up on the jets...have you tweaked it w/ a vacuum gauge? and yeah you need to get the right PV in to tune it. I bet if you could get the vacuum up, went with a 4.0 PV and upped you jets you'd pick up on the low end, thus netting better et and w/ the extra jetting in the secondaries pick up a little up top as well. Anybody know how low PV's go? I think the lowest I've ever used was 4.5




    I believe they start at 2.5 then go to 3.5 4.5 5.5 etc.

    I'd like him to get the car mobile so we can engine break it to see what the exhaust looks like.

    Last edited by 64Post; 03/18/09 01:36 PM.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254971
    03/18/09 01:42 PM
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    Don't cover up existing problems by screwing with the carb. It will just compound your problems. I doubt you washed down the walls so bad that you cashed the rings. I would do a leak down test though. I'm sure one of the guys running a 5/16" fuel line on their drag machine has one lying around you could borrow. Assume you are running a PCV system to keep the crankcase in negative pressure at idle?? Is it working? The idle rpm should drop about 50rpm when you plug it off. How does the breather vent hose look on the inside? Should be dry. If its dripping with oil thats a sign of excessive blow by. So is lots of oil leaks??


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    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254972
    03/18/09 02:25 PM
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    Dispite everyones "expert" input on this thread, try to stay focused on your known problems - Can't get cam timing marks to line up ( a biggie and should be #1 on your adgenda to fix.), low cranking compression - which could quite possibly go away once you get the cam timed properly. Forget trying to degree in the cam for now. You can't do it until you get the marks to line up anyway.


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254973
    03/18/09 02:34 PM
    03/18/09 02:34 PM
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    Just to let you know we are just going by the info you have given us and assuming a lot. At least I am.

    Because there is no video of your run for us to critique, we are assuming you can launch and shift. 1/2 a second or more can be made up with a good launch and proper shifting. Yes, not all of us are as quick as Ronnie Sox when it comes to shifting.

    I do think you should not have such a low vacuum though and do think getting that back will help ET somewhat. The low cranking compression is also something that's not the norm.

    You never mention if the car ran better in the past.


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254974
    03/18/09 02:40 PM
    03/18/09 02:40 PM
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    Quote:

    Dispite everyones "expert" input on this thread, try to stay focused on your known problems




    You're right. Too many cooks in the kitchen. I'll bow out since I got in late. I'll just be an observer from now on as I'd like to see how it turns out.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254975
    03/18/09 03:47 PM
    03/18/09 03:47 PM
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    Not an expert here, but the lack of timing at the cam (timing marks) can and normally do effect both cranking compression and vacuum. This by your description is an obvious issue. New timing chain in order here. And as long as you are there, degree the cam. After reviewing the lobes(be very aware of a non-normal wear patern) check the lifter bottoms. Answer that "cam issue" question for yourself. Ultimate cam timing does effect everything from idle to mid range in a large way....maybe not so much at the top end.
    This is an excellent thread for all of us...but not necessarily you. Lots of ideas....but thats what you want. Cure the known issue and let us know the results. By the responses, you've got alot of interest and help here.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!! [Re: Crizila] #254976
    03/18/09 05:52 PM
    03/18/09 05:52 PM
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    Quote:

    Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc. Running too small a fuel line won't affect it though.




    I'd like to hear how you figure that.

    I understand things differently... let me try and explain what I know believe to be true. Rocker geometry is the relationship of the fulcrum point, or pivot point which is the centerline of the shaft in a Mopar, to the arc created as the rocker tip travels. On a factory shaft system, the only variables are the saddles, which are tough to but not impossible to be messed up... or the valve seat depth and the resulting effective lengthening of the valve stem and tip, which affects where the tip of the valve is at rest (closed). You can take a stock head and block, mill .300", .050", or 3" off them, and you will have only made the effective length of the pushrods shorter. You have not changed anything in the rocker and valve tip relationship. The sweep will always be unchanged by any of those. A smaller base circle cam, milled deck, or milled heads or lifter design directly affect the pushrod length you need. The single biggest issue with geometry problems an mopars is bad valve jobs where the seats are sunk making the valves too long unless the stems are trimmed a like amount to reset the height. A good shop, with a modern seat milling center, makes that as easy as reading the indicator when the seats are cut.


    edit: I would second the leakdown. And degree the cam...


    Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: moper] #254977
    03/18/09 06:37 PM
    03/18/09 06:37 PM
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    Quote:

    Quote:

    Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc.




    I'd like to hear how you figure that.






    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254978
    03/18/09 06:55 PM
    03/18/09 06:55 PM
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    Quote:

    Quote:

    Quote:

    Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc.




    I'd like to hear how you figure that.










    I think the main isue w. milling, cutting, decking is you might need to shim the shafts or use adjustable push rods. I had a set of 915's cut way back when and used a set of thin head gaskets (and got the intake cut to match) I was gonna use adjustable push rods but they was $$$$ so I shimmed the shafts and it ran killer. built 383 spun it to 7200 every weekend. zippy problems.

    I think (and I'm just a weekend warrior) he has 2 issues, I do think his carb needs a good tuning and double check that cam and t-chain. Since you got the front of the motor apart it should be pretty easy. Like I said way back 106 is about right, your et is off and your 60, 100 foot is off. You'll get it right. Try this..remove the rocker shafts and do a compression test. If you have 140 again you know you have a ring problem or just low compression, in that case get a different cam, if it goes up to 170 or so you know you have a cam installation problem. Good luck, I hate chaseing problems.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254979
    03/18/09 07:10 PM
    03/18/09 07:10 PM
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    Glendale, AZ
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    Well, I just installed a new ting set. Picked up an Edelbrock double roller. Installed it dot-to-dot straight up and did a compression test. Averaging between 190-195 across all 8 cylinders counting 5 hits on the gauge as before. Very interesting. Im gonna go ahead and try to degree the cam. The only difference between compression tests other than the readings was now the motor is ice cold, whereas before, it was a little warm...nowhere near operating temperature.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254980
    03/18/09 08:05 PM
    03/18/09 08:05 PM
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    Quote:

    Well, I just installed a new ting set. Picked up an Edelbrock double roller. Installed it dot-to-dot straight up and did a compression test. Averaging between 190-195 across all 8 cylinders counting 5 hits on the gauge as before. Very interesting. Im gonna go ahead and try to degree the cam. The only difference between compression tests other than the readings was now the motor is ice cold, whereas before, it was a little warm...nowhere near operating temperature.





    At least you were turning wrenches instead of BSing on the internet all day. I'd love to know where the cam was before -- I'm guessing about 20* late. Oh well... hey, don't forget to upsize the fuel line to 7/8 ".

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254981
    03/18/09 08:46 PM
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    Crizila Offline
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    Shot - and a goal!!! Congrats azmopardart. U should be in the 12's before you know it. As to the valve train geometry issue: You are right moper - regarding the constant relationship between the pivit point ( center line of the shaft ) and the rocker to valve tip contact when the valve is closed - and this aint good when you install a cam with condiderable more lift than what the valve geometry was intended for. At full lift with a higher than stock lift cam, the point of contact starts to get real close to the edge of the valve stem, often doing some major side loading to the valve ( reads wears out guides and rockers ). The geometry change takes place on the push rod side. the distance between the lifter cup and rocker cup changes (remember I did say slightly ). This changes the push rod angle ( already crappy on small blocks ) between the two points and that in turn changes both the lift and duration of the cam. Changing the aformentioned relationship between the rocker tip and the valve stem to accomidate a higher lift cam can only be accomplished with a valve length change ( as moper stated ), shaft shims, or lash caps. Ok, now that the problem is solved, time to get busy on that 5/16" to 3/8" fuel line change----


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254982
    03/18/09 08:53 PM
    03/18/09 08:53 PM
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    ...so had he degreed the cam in the first place....

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254983
    03/18/09 08:55 PM
    03/18/09 08:55 PM
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    Degreeing the cam will allow you to know exactly where the cam is. One problem down, (at least going in the right direction) hopefully it solved a couple other problems as well. And please do degree it even though you have good cranking compression.


    Well done!


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254984
    03/18/09 08:56 PM
    03/18/09 08:56 PM
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    EZ valve train geometry check: Remove the rockers. Wipe a few valve stems dry with solvent. Then color them black ( at least one intake and one exhaust ) with a magic marker. reinstall the rockers. Rotate the engine through several cycles. Remove the rockers and examine the contact pattern. If it's centered on the stem and not too near the stem edges, your good to go.


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254985
    03/18/09 08:57 PM
    03/18/09 08:57 PM
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    Quote:

    ...so had he degreed the cam in the first place....




    And that's the problem with many of us we rather replace parts until it solves the problem.

    Good thing he does not do this for a living!



    Just think how much you would of been chasing this thing around if you did not bother to question cam timing!

    Last edited by HealthServices; 03/18/09 09:17 PM.

    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254986
    03/18/09 09:11 PM
    03/18/09 09:11 PM
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    Quote:

    ...so had he degreed the cam in the first place....




    ...instead of lining up the dots...

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254987
    03/18/09 09:22 PM
    03/18/09 09:22 PM
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    When finding TDC with the piston stop make sure to go VERY SLOW as you come up to the piston stop. You do not want to create any new problems.


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: HealthServices] #254988
    03/18/09 09:47 PM
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    Quote:

    When finding TDC with the piston stop make sure to go VERY SLOW as you come up to the piston stop. You do not want to create any new problems.




    What... like breaking the stop off in the cylinder?

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #254989
    03/18/09 10:02 PM
    03/18/09 10:02 PM
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    Quote:

    Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly.




    Lining the marks up means nothing. I had a customer's race 440 in the shop a few years ago because he couldn't get it to run - a real pig. I checked the cam timing and it was hugely retarded -about 15 degrees IIRC. Did I mention the marks were aligned? The cam gear/ a MP double roller set/ was marked off one tooth. Seems he hadn't wanted to go to the trouble to degree it when the engine was built.

    It amazes me all the guys who drop big bucks on an engine build but won't spend less than $100 and an hour or so to degree the cam.

    There's never enough money to do it right, but always enough to do it over.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: kwikblownhemi] #254990
    03/18/09 10:11 PM
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    and some would be playing with fuel line at this point!

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254991
    03/18/09 10:30 PM
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    Quote:

    and some would be playing with fuel line at this point!




    I can't emphasize how funny I found that comment to be on a family forum, but it nearly involved a change of wardrobe. Perhaps... NPMPLMAO

    Last edited by 64Post; 03/18/09 10:32 PM.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254992
    03/18/09 10:42 PM
    03/18/09 10:42 PM
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    Well, I just tried degreeing the cam. Repeated it 6 times to verify my results. The number I came up with is 116.5. If this cam is on a 108*, then Im 8.5* out? Which direction do I go? Advance or retard? To my knowledge, I cant seem to find a source that had 8 degree offset keyways, or do you adjust for additional advance and retard via the crank sprocket as well? Any ideas? I verified TDC multiple times as well, just to be absolutely certain since this is my first time doing it

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254993
    03/18/09 10:45 PM
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    Quote:

    Quote:

    When finding TDC with the piston stop make sure to go VERY SLOW as you come up to the piston stop. You do not want to create any new problems.




    What... like breaking the stop off in the cylinder?




    Yep been there done that!

    Although I was not laughing when it happened 15 years ago.


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254994
    03/18/09 10:49 PM
    03/18/09 10:49 PM
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    Quote:

    Well, I just tried degreeing the cam. Repeated it 6 times to verify my results. The number I came up with is 116.5. If this cam is on a 108*, then Im 8.5* out? Which direction do I go? Advance or retard? To my knowledge, I cant seem to find a source that had 8 degree offset keyways. Any ideas?




    Wow...thats off! Are you sure your TDC was accurate (which determines your positioning of the degree wheel)
    If it is accurate, your WAYYYYY retarded, and need to advance. Summit makes a great billet 9 slot set for about $70 that would be great (+/- 2 degrees, +8 to -8) But I gotta question if your 116.5 is accurate.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #254995
    03/18/09 10:50 PM
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    Double check your TDC.


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254996
    03/18/09 10:52 PM
    03/18/09 10:52 PM
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    Quote:

    Well, I just tried degreeing the cam. Repeated it 6 times to verify my results. The number I came up with is 116.5. If this cam is on a 108*, then Im 8.5* out? Which direction do I go? Advance or retard? To my knowledge, I cant seem to find a source that had 8 degree offset keyways. Any ideas?




    What does the cam card give for intake closing point ABDC, and what is your actual reading?

    EDIT: We might have to look at how you're arriving at TDC.

    Last edited by 64Post; 03/18/09 10:55 PM.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254997
    03/18/09 10:58 PM
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    Its a MP cam. I didnt get a cam card with it

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #254998
    03/18/09 11:07 PM
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    Nevermind... that was no help.

    How are you arriving at TDC?

    Last edited by 64Post; 03/18/09 11:09 PM.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #254999
    03/18/09 11:13 PM
    03/18/09 11:13 PM
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    Using a degree wheel and an adjustable piston stop. I obtained the directions off of Comps website. Thats what I dont understand. I repeated each step multiple times to verify correct readings, and got the same numbers everytime

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #255000
    03/18/09 11:41 PM
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    That's what I was going to suggest -- using an online instruction source so you could reference it step by step.

    I'll look at Comp's site but in the mean time make sure you're reading the wheel correctly. If you're using the intake centerline method make sure you're using TDC and ATDC numbers -- not TDC and BTDC.

    For example, if the lifter is .050" below max lift @ 80* ATDC and .050" below max lift again at 140 ATDC then the ICL is 110* (80+ 140/2= 110)

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #255001
    03/19/09 12:06 AM
    03/19/09 12:06 AM
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    Sorry I have to put the little one to sleep and will not be able to help you on the setup but you can look it up like you just did. Hopefully I typed this correctly.

    To double check if you are at Zero. Put the piston stop in the Number one cylinder again.


    1. Begin by rotating the crankshaft by hand in a clockwise direction, until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop.


    2. Note the position of where the pointer is at the degree wheel.


    3. Next hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and once again at the stop.



    4. Look at the pointer again ‘this should stop exactly the same amount on the other side of Zero!’



    5. Again TDC is the distance exactly between these two marks and should be Zero. If it is not then you are off, do below.
    • Remove the stop and rotate the motor until the degree wheel is exactly between the two marks above in steps 2 and 4.
    • Without moving the wheel, move the pointer to Zero. Now rotate the motor a quarter turn and put the stop in again.
    • Repeat steps 1-5 above again if the degree wheel stops the same amount before and after zero you are exactly at zero.



    Locating TDC is CRITICAL if you are to Degree the Cam successfully.


    Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #255002
    03/19/09 08:43 AM
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    gch Offline
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    Not to be an idiot here but you are degreeing it off the intake valve arent you?Years ago someone non mopar knowledgeable degreed mine off the exhaust valve(it is the first valve on number one).It ran fine but had no power.Degreed it properly and what a difference!

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: gch] #255003
    03/19/09 11:20 AM
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    I will ignore many of the snide remarks directed at me on this thread ( I got no problem if you disagree with me )as they only show a persons ignorance and do nothing to help azmopardart. I'm also not partaking in this thread to " blow my own horn" or impress anyone with my automotive knowledge ( that's kids crap ) as this also does nothing to help azmopardart solve his problems. That being said, to azmopardart: Sounds like you have most of your problems solved by getting the cam oriented to the crank properly - got the dots lined up. Glad to see you are taking the "next step" in professional engine building by degreeing in the cam. Once you have done it, it will become an automatic with future build-ups. The process has a two fold objective: 1 - verify what the cam Mfg is telling you ( cam specs ). 2 - to tailer the cam to your specific needs at the track by advancing or retarding it ( in relation to the crank )from the Mfg's suggested installation. Remember this: You will seldom find a cam off more than 3-4 degrees from there posted ( cam card ) info. - lining up the dots!! There are always exceptions of coarse - but rare. Just be wary if you come up with numbers that are way different than what the cam Mfg sez. If you are positive your numbers are correct and they are way off from the Mfg's numbers, you will probably be better off dumping the cam rather than trying to fix it with off-set keys, etc. Don't make changes to the cam timing greater than about 4 degrees ( advance or retard )from the suggested in stall numbers. You will be better off changing cams to one that is better suited to your specific needs. Finally, don't forget that 3/8" fuel line! Good luck, John


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #255004
    03/19/09 03:28 PM
    03/19/09 03:28 PM
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    az - Cool on the findings. You are now experiencing the quality of MP parts first hand!! the last mopar cam I did required 10° of change to get it where MP intended it. So if you have repeating results, I'd say you're correct. Here's the rub... You cam is retarded 8.5°.. the higher the figure, the more retarded it is in relation to the piston position. So you will need to advance it, and advancing the cam will build MORE cylinder pressure. You will want to fuel the car properly once you get this thing dialed in. You're already past pump fuel.


    Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #255005
    03/19/09 05:34 PM
    03/19/09 05:34 PM

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    Quote:

    I will ignore many of the snide remarks directed at me on this thread ( I got no problem if you disagree with me )as they only show a persons ignorance and do nothing to help azmopardart.




    After reading your bio:

    Quote:

    My first Chrysler was a 1958 300D. Owned many Chrysler products since then, including a 63 Plymouth Sport Fury convertible Max wedge 426 - 3 speed stick (one of eight). Held many AHRA records in the 60's with a 64 Max Wedge 330 Dodge.




    I'll wait till another time to expose my ignorance by directing snide remarks your way.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! #255006
    03/19/09 10:27 PM
    03/19/09 10:27 PM
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    Well, I think im back in action! Put it all together, double and triple checked everything, and it sounds like a different car! Pulling about 9 inches of vacuum at idle, lopes at 1400rpm (was almost smooth at 900 before), and doesnt smell like raw fuel at idle. Engine is VERY snappy and responsive. Gotta go over the finer points now such as primary jetting to start with and play with ignition timing. An honest thank you to all that took the time to offer advise

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 69L78Nova] #255007
    03/19/09 10:36 PM
    03/19/09 10:36 PM
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    Quote:

    Well, I think im back in action! Put it all together, double and triple checked everything, and it sounds like a different car! Pulling about 9 inches of vacuum at idle, lopes at 1400rpm (was almost smooth at 900 before), and doesnt smell like raw fuel at idle. Engine is VERY snappy and responsive. Gotta go over the finer points now such as primary jetting to start with and play with ignition timing.




    Fantastic!!!

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! #255008
    03/19/09 10:38 PM
    03/19/09 10:38 PM
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    Hey Curtis, thanks for posting my Bio, although I'm sure most of the "click" has already read it. It's a non-fiction Bio ( Check out the November issue of MCG ). I won't be posting yours, although it sounds quite interesting - and impressive. Congrats on retirement. You beat me by 2 years - although I'm a little older than you. Have a great day!


    Fastest 300
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #255009
    03/19/09 10:55 PM
    03/19/09 10:55 PM
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    Quote:

    Hey Curtis, thanks for posting my Bio, although I'm sure most of the "click" has already read it. It's a non-fiction Bio ( Check out the November issue of MCG ). I won't be posting yours, although it sounds quite interesting - and impressive. Congrats on retirement. You beat me by 2 years - although I'm a little older than you. Have a great day!




    The word is "clique." And since I know already I'm ignorant...

    As impressive as your accomplishments were, imagine how many more records you would've held if you degreed a few cams along the way instead of just lining up the dots and putting in a bigger fuel line. Considering your resume, there really is no excuse.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #255010
    03/20/09 12:33 AM
    03/20/09 12:33 AM
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    Hey now. We are all here to learn. No need to be so uppity. What works for one may or may not work for another. If people want to bicker go elsewhere. That is the biggest turn off of this place. I am not taking any sides on this, but we all should have learned something. If you did not learn anything then maybe you should not post but just read and think how you knew it all.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Posest] #255011
    03/20/09 12:41 AM
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    Quote:

    If you did not learn anything then maybe you should not post but just read and think how you knew it all.




    Hey, I wasn't the one trying to correct a compression issue by increasing the size of the fuel line.

    Maybe you should read the thread from the beginning.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: 64Post] #255012
    03/20/09 07:02 AM
    03/20/09 07:02 AM
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    Glad you got it sorted out, go have some fun w/ it and let us know what times you pull.

    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Mr.Yuck] #255013
    03/20/09 09:10 AM
    03/20/09 09:10 AM
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    Az
    In a previous post on this thread I mentioned that you will rarely find a cam off spec more tham 3-4 degrees and if you do, I suggested dumping the cam rather than trying to correct it. To clarify, I have degreed in lots of cams over the years ( remember, I'm pretty old ), but I can't specifically remember degreeing in a Mopar cam ( probably did a few along the way )so I can't comment on their quality. When I have run accross one that was out more than 3-4 degrees, that discrepency often existed from lobe to lobe ( on both the advance and retard side ). Something you can't correct - hence - dump the cam. IMO, there are a lot better grinds out there these days than what Mopar has to offer( more area under the curve without sacrificing driveability ). I'm running one ( flat tappet hydraulic )right now with well over .600" lift that still pulls 10 - 12" vacuum at idle.


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    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: Crizila] #255014
    03/20/09 11:54 AM
    03/20/09 11:54 AM
    Joined: Feb 2003
    Posts: 12,675
    Columbia, CT
    M
    moper Offline
    I Live Here
    moper  Offline
    I Live Here
    M

    Joined: Feb 2003
    Posts: 12,675
    Columbia, CT
    Quote:

    In a previous post on this thread I mentioned that you will rarely find a cam off spec more tham 3-4 degrees and if you do, I suggested dumping the cam rather than trying to correct it.




    yup. That's why MP is at the bottom of my list. I've never had Wolverine, Comp, Crane, Engle or UltraDyne that was more than 2°. MPs used to be decent. But about 6 years ago now, I found two that were way off new in the box, and NOT in the same direction... So I stopped using them. You guys are SOOOOooooo old... I do have a few good old guys around to still learn from


    Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
    Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong! [Re: moper] #255015
    03/20/09 12:33 PM
    03/20/09 12:33 PM
    Joined: Oct 2003
    Posts: 7,506
    Az
    Crizila Offline
    master
    Crizila  Offline
    master

    Joined: Oct 2003
    Posts: 7,506
    Az
    Quote:

    You guys are SOOOOooooo old...


    You'll be surprised on how fast that happens. The alternative to getting old is - - worse!


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