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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2471147
03/23/18 10:14 PM
03/23/18 10:14 PM
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McGregor,Iowa 52157
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500ciDuster Offline
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Stamped rockers w/no adjustment might have too much preload and may keep the valves from sealing when you get into the rpm

Re: What went wrong? [Re: Biginchmopar] #2471155
03/23/18 10:49 PM
03/23/18 10:49 PM
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Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
Shatar4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Biginchmopar
Originally Posted By sasquatch
Ok
Red flag to check.
You cannot degree a cam by going dot to dot on the timing chain. It could be anywhere. You need a degree wheel and find true TDC. Just going off what I read here.


iagree

That’s why I pulled the motor so I can check everything.

Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2471223
03/24/18 03:12 AM
03/24/18 03:12 AM
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Carson City, Nevada
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Originally Posted By Shatar4
Originally Posted By Biginchmopar
Originally Posted By sasquatch
Ok
Red flag to check.
You cannot degree a cam by going dot to dot on the timing chain. It could be anywhere. You need a degree wheel and find true TDC. Just going off what I read here.


iagree

That’s why I pulled the motor so I can check everything.

up

Re: What went wrong? [Re: pittsburghracer] #2471231
03/24/18 04:43 AM
03/24/18 04:43 AM
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Mt.Gilead, Ohio
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Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Very nice car!!!!!!!!!!

iagree You have an awesome Challenger. I hope you can get it figured out.


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: OhioMopar] #2471233
03/24/18 05:28 AM
03/24/18 05:28 AM
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Howell, Mi
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Originally Posted By OhioMopar
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Very nice car!!!!!!!!!!

iagree You have an awesome Challenger. I hope you can get it figured out.

Thank you

Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2471414
03/24/18 05:22 PM
03/24/18 05:22 PM
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There is something crazy wrong here! It seems everyone has given some good insights. It could be a combination of probs, but I am going with the cam timing is off or the lifters are being crushed by too much preload {just a simple shimming of the rocker shafts would fix this}

Re: What went wrong? [Re: tjmarcus1] #2471432
03/24/18 06:17 PM
03/24/18 06:17 PM
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Land 'O Lakes
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Originally Posted By tjmarcus1
There is something crazy wrong here! It seems everyone has given some good insights. It could be a combination of probs, but I am going with the cam timing is off or the lifters are being crushed by too much preload {just a simple shimming of the rocker shafts would fix this}



iagree with this statement, double check cam with degree wheel....also nice Challenger BTW...hope you can straighten this out, good luck!


Plymouth Makes It!
Re: What went wrong? [Re: RoadRunnerLuva] #2482982
04/15/18 11:47 AM
04/15/18 11:47 AM
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Posts: 356
NE
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any update on your findings?

Re: What went wrong? [Re: moparpoolman] #2548300
09/10/18 11:22 AM
09/10/18 11:22 AM
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Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.

Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548314
09/10/18 11:49 AM
09/10/18 11:49 AM
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Eighty Four, PA
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Everyone may be on to something with the cam timing.We had an engine that came in that had the cam lined dot to dot and wouldn't run.Came to find the dot to dot was the wrong refrence one dot was at the came gear and the other was at the crank keyway slot when it should have been at the crank gear tooth.The dot crank keyway was the designation for the retard tooth setting.Rest the crank gear tooth slot dot to the cam gear dot and it ran fine.There were 3 setting at the crank gear a retangle for retard a triangle for advance and a dot for straight up.The installer mistook the retangle for dot.Never use the mark at the keyway as a setting for the cam use it to position the related mark at the tooth area.This is worth investigating.

Re: What went wrong? [Re: B G Racing] #2548333
09/10/18 12:25 PM
09/10/18 12:25 PM
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Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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It sounds like he tried to go dot to dot the first time, missed that and cost you some bent valves. Then he really put in the effort and got it dot to dot on the second go?
Please. before bolting the heads on find out what the measured centerline is. Your guy probably can't do it. Find someone who can. Oops too late, well I guess it's running anyway.

Last edited by RUNCHARGER; 09/10/18 12:26 PM.

Sheldon
Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548354
09/10/18 01:14 PM
09/10/18 01:14 PM
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Shelby mi.
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Originally Posted By Shatar4
Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.



Give me a call and I will see what I can do to get you in earlier Jake


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548357
09/10/18 01:18 PM
09/10/18 01:18 PM
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MI, usa
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Why didn't the motor "assembler" degree the cam?
Doug

Re: What went wrong? [Re: dvw] #2548361
09/10/18 01:23 PM
09/10/18 01:23 PM
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Posts: 20,116
PA.
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Some of these "so called" engine builders scare the CRAP out of me.


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548368
09/10/18 01:35 PM
09/10/18 01:35 PM
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Great Neck,LI,new york
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A few lessons learned. whistlingThere are parts guys that do more than just sell parts whistling
Cams MUST be degreed with a wheel and dial indicator.

Even good engine builders can make a mistake,they ARE human.I hope he stepped up and took car of the expense you had to endure!

Cams and springs really need to be "matched" and checked for accuracy!
The right combo of cam & spring can make a huge difference up


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548378
09/10/18 01:52 PM
09/10/18 01:52 PM
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New York
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What's the A:F just after the torque drop-off?


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: pittsburghracer] #2548382
09/10/18 02:02 PM
09/10/18 02:02 PM
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Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Some of these "so called" engine builders scare the CRAP out of me.
iagree Me too shruggy
The first solid roller cam I bought and installed in a customers 1958 392 (300 motor originally with dual AFB quads and adjustable rocker arms boogie) stock hemi boat motor in a 18 ft. flat bottom Stevens V drive. It had a solid lifter cam in it before and would rev a little over 6000 RPM in gear on the water according to the customer, not so with the new Sig Erson solid roller race boat camshaft whiney
It wouldn't rev past 3000 RPM with that new cam install straight up dot to dot in the water in gear shock runaway
It revved like crazy in the boat out of the water confused
I had my wife take that cam back to Sig Erson three times to have them check it, they swore up and down it was okay runaway I had to wait 5 weeks for them to grind that cam as it was not a standard shelf cam they stock at their factory back then in 1971 work
They where not real helpful on solving the problem as long as I dealt with Sig Erson younger brother Babe Erson down
I had that motor in and out of the boat fives times and apart before finding out that the cam had been ground 10 degrees retarded runaway puke
I learned that from one of their older techs on the next to the last call to them when he taught me how to degree the cam on the lobe centers, it was a real eye opener up shruggy
They swore it wasn't their special ground expensive brand new cam shaft, it had to be the timing set or the crankshaft key way being ground in the wrong location and so on and on.
They ended up giving me a set of offset cam and crankshaft keyways to get it installed where the lobe centers should have been instead of replacing it with another new one ground properly whiney down
It was off on the cam card on the lobes a little bit, 2 to 5 degrees at .020 checking it on both intake and exhaust lobes so that should have been a good indicator it was ground wrong from day one to me realcrazy
That was my first experience with a solid roller cam and my last time I bought any Sig Erson products down
I have learned since then most problems with engines or with other things, end up helping me become better up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/10/18 02:05 PM.

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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548450
09/10/18 04:44 PM
09/10/18 04:44 PM
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Missouri
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I agree with what several said, its a cam timing issue. I would do a cranking compression test and then a running compression test. You should have 160 to 180 lbs of compression at least, and then the running compression test should go to 80% of the cranking when you blip the throttle. If those numbers are low your cam is off. A quick way to tell is rotate the engine to the overlap at TDC, look at the valves one is opening and one is closing, if both vales are the same height your cam is in heads up, if intake is down its advanced, if exhaust is down its retarded. One bad things about a chassis dyno is lack of instrumentation, an engine dyno with exhaust temp sensors, fuel flow, pressure, etc. would really help diagnose the issue. Their is nothing really wrong with your parts, its something with how they were assembled.

Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548495
09/10/18 06:50 PM
09/10/18 06:50 PM
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Pattison Texas
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Originally Posted By Shatar4
Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.




He found the problem !!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ smile


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Re: What went wrong? [Re: Shatar4] #2548503
09/10/18 07:03 PM
09/10/18 07:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
N/E, Michigan
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Originally Posted By Shatar4
Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.




You an try Full Throttle racing In Fraser,MI they have a chassis dyno.

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