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very sad 440-6 #254062
03/15/09 09:18 AM
03/15/09 09:18 AM

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I fired up my 70 Cuda yesterday for the first time since Oct. When I first started I had a totally dead battery and used a jump to start it. The car ran terrible and after 20 minutes shut off and had to wait half an hour to restart it and kept the same cycle up all day. Would a dead battery cause the car to run and not run like that?

Re: very sad 440-6 #254063
03/15/09 09:28 AM
03/15/09 09:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,275
West Coast, USA
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It hasn't been running since October? I had the impression you were using the advice from all the people who were trying to help you from your other posts, doing some active testing and posting the results????

At this point, why don't you do a compression test and post the numbers. Was it knocking?

Trouble shooting is a logical, systematic approach to isolate the actual problems. We can speculate all day long, that's our job, we're proud, we're Moparts Members; but if you don't start with the basics and post actual results, it's going to be tough to help you.

You need compression, fuel and spark to have combustion, and they have to be consistent if you want to have a nice chain of combustion events, take one away or have it be inconsistent, and you will have the problems you describe.

The concept of trouble shooting does not mean you figure out whats wrong with it, perform one test, and you hit the nail on the head every time the first time. It means you go through a series of steps to both find, eliminate and/or narrow down what it is or what it is not.

Stick with the basics and be methodical!

Step one: check the general mechnical condition of your motor. One time tested way to do this is to do a compresion test and post the results.

Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: jbc426] #254064
03/15/09 09:48 AM
03/15/09 09:48 AM

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living in Wisconsin the car sits all winter. I started it for the first time yesterday. The engine has about 200 miles by a pro shop rebuild. We have done everything from compression to vacuum to spark to fuel and everything looks good. The problem is that after 20 minutes of idling the car shuts itself off and will not restart until it sits for a half hour. The one sure thing I know is that the battery is very low because when I jumped it with my F-150 it really dragged the truck down big time. Now when the car guits I have no equipment to see what happened and that is why I am asking you guys if you have ever experienced this. I have adjusted the center carb three times now to check myself and the internal vacuum is at 18, when cranking the engine the spark would start a fire ten feet away it is that strong. This is a pointless ignition and everything is totally new. So that is why I am wondering if the alt. can not keep up with charging the battery and running the car and that is why it quits after a while.

Re: very sad 440-6 #254065
03/15/09 10:03 AM
03/15/09 10:03 AM
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West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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Put the battery on a charger. Is you charging system working on the car? It's cranking over once it dies or you wouldn't know it won't start, so you obviously have enough juice to keep the ignition running if it has enough power to crank the engine, right?

Also, if it wasn't running like this when they checked the compression before, what good are those test results? You need to get test results from what it is doing now. You may have flattened a lifter or wiped out a cam lobe. That is not uncommon in these days of reformulated oils.

Do a compression test and post what the compression test results are? This will indicate the general overall condition of your motor right now. With only 200 miles on it, something could have gone wrong. Ask me how I know....

Do you have the tools and such to trouble shoot any of this? If not either find someone who does and knows how to use them, buy the tools and learn how to use them, or take it to a shop.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: jbc426] #254066
03/15/09 10:18 AM
03/15/09 10:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,346
It's a dry heat
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It's a dry heat
is it elec ignition ? or still points.

you can do some basic troubeshooting with a test light on the ignition system with it.

after it stalls .
ck for key on voltage on the ( + ) coil during cranking
then ck for a pulsing voltage on the ( - )opposite side of the coil at the same time

but yes a bad/shorted battery will do weird things to a cars electrical system

Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: gtx6970] #254067
03/15/09 11:18 AM
03/15/09 11:18 AM
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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If you read any shop manual, it will tell you that you MUST have a fully charged battery to perform testing.
Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Charge or replace the battery before you do anything else.

Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: RodStRace] #254068
03/15/09 11:22 AM
03/15/09 11:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Quote:

If you read any shop manual, it will tell you that you MUST have a fully charged battery to perform testing.
Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Charge or replace the battery before you do anything else.




when it's running is it running good? How hot does the coil get? If you have a "hot" ignition system sometimes they run like dood oo when the battery is low or your alternator is going south? Are you using the standard 35 amp or did you upgrade? I had a coil go bad once and it did the same thing you car is doing..only mine lasted 10 miutes.

Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254069
03/15/09 12:01 PM
03/15/09 12:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
Why would you even post that?
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It is very hard to diagnose a problem over the internet. Especially if you think something is good when it is not. Currently from the information you have given. It sounds like a charging or ignition problem. If you have a gear reduction starter you could have a battery as weak as 10 volts and have it crank good.
  • Check the voltage at the battery before starting and when the car is running.
  • It also sounds like you could be losing ignition.
    Either the power to the ignition system (weak voltage or wiring)
    Or something with the ignition system itself.

    I’d rig a test light from a pig tail and tape it to the base of the windshield. Then connect one end to the ignition side of the resistor and the other end to ground.
  • if the light is still on when the engine quits you know the wiring to the resistor is still good. Check the voltage before and after the resistor at this time. do not shut of the ignition when testing for this voltage. If there is a ignition problem you know you have power to this point.
  • If the light is off you know there is a problem with the wiring to the resistor, a bad ignition switch, bad bulkhead connector or something like that.


    Sorry post is so long there is not enough info given for the problem at hand.


    Go down the manual and do all the checks it ask for and you should get your answer. Skipping steps just because you think something is good can get you in trouble really fast.

    Or you can do what most inexperienced people/techs do and just start replacing parts. Maybe you might get lucky.


  • Re: very sad 440-6 #254070
    03/15/09 12:12 PM
    03/15/09 12:12 PM
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    Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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    RUNCHARGER Offline
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    Too many cooks can ruin the soup, however you stated that when you jumped it with your pickup that it really dragged the pickup down. One thing I would try is to remove the battery and put in a different battery, the battery in the car could have developed a short which would cause the problems you are experiencing.

    Sheldon

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: RUNCHARGER] #254071
    03/15/09 12:22 PM
    03/15/09 12:22 PM
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    Bridgeport, WV
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    Michael Offline
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    Quote:

    Too many cooks can ruin the soup, however you stated that when you jumped it with your pickup that it really dragged the pickup down. One thing I would try is to remove the battery and put in a different battery, the battery in the car could have developed a short which would cause the problems you are experiencing.

    Sheldon



    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: Michael] #254072
    03/15/09 01:08 PM
    03/15/09 01:08 PM
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    Posts: 708
    Mechanic Falls, Maine
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    4BBodies Offline
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    I wouldn't waste time with the current battery, it sounds like it is on its way out. Swap it for a known good one, or buy a new one. Then, as mentioned above, do a systematic check of everything, BEFORE you fire it up. If it has points, file them a re-set them. Check the fuel filter. Sitting is the absolute worst thing for old cars, that's why I start mine every couple of months, regardless. And I live in the snow belt, so it isn't easy, it is bloody cold in my storage building! Good luck, I hope it is just your battery!

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: 4BBodies] #254073
    03/15/09 01:27 PM
    03/15/09 01:27 PM
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    Posts: 123
    Indiana
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    mt162 Offline
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    I'm thinking you have a lean condition that is compensated for by the choke. Choke comes off and engine dies and won't start until it resets. Vacuum leak or shrunken or split metering block gasket would be my guess.

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: mt162] #254074
    03/15/09 01:39 PM
    03/15/09 01:39 PM
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    Posts: 20,149
    Park Forest, IL
    slantzilla Offline
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    Put in a good battery and good gas or you'll be chasing your tail forever.

    The charging system was never designed to recharge a fully discharged battery, just to keep up with demand and replace what is lost during starting.


    "Everybody funny, now you funny too."
    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: slantzilla] #254075
    03/15/09 01:47 PM
    03/15/09 01:47 PM
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    renton, Washington
    ph23vo Offline
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    i think its time you found someone that knows cars and PAID them to make it right.. you are never gonna have any fun if you dont dan

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: slantzilla] #254076
    03/15/09 01:51 PM
    03/15/09 01:51 PM
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    Posts: 1,012
    Ontario,Canada
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    Had trouble with my 440 once would run and just quit it was the coil change it to a good expoxie filled coil got ride of the old oil filled run great after that.

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254077
    03/15/09 02:02 PM
    03/15/09 02:02 PM
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    Maine
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    jerseybud Offline
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    Quote:

    The problem is that after 20 minutes of idling the car shuts itself off and will not restart



    You mean fast idle and not idle idle for 20 minutes right? or are you sitting in the drivers seat or manually moving the throttle?
    maybe i missed it, but this thing has fresh gas right?

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: gtx6970] #254078
    03/15/09 03:24 PM
    03/15/09 03:24 PM

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    It is a pointless ignition. I just changed the fuel filter to make sure the one I had was not bad, started the car and afrer 15 minutes it shut itself off again. I looked at the float level in the center carb and it was at the bottom of the hole so I am guessing it is not fuel so do I try a new modual on the fire wall next? Advance Auto parts told me this morning that a coil is either bad or good no fixing itself for a while and then going bad again.

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: Mr.Yuck] #254079
    03/15/09 03:27 PM
    03/15/09 03:27 PM

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    when it runs it runs good though when I throttle it quick it backfires out the exhaust. When I try to restart it after it shuts down it once to backfire out the center carb

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: RUNCHARGER] #254080
    03/15/09 03:31 PM
    03/15/09 03:31 PM

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    kind of funny because this is the second battery in the car in six months, the first on went bad in a few weeks. Could the battery shut the car down?

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: jerseybud] #254081
    03/15/09 03:34 PM
    03/15/09 03:34 PM

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    it has fresh no ethanol gas with octane boost and no I am not in the car it is idling and 800rpm's for twnty minutes and qu9its like someone pulled the coil wire.

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254082
    03/15/09 03:35 PM
    03/15/09 03:35 PM
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    St. John's Newfoundland
    440newport Offline
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    Bad coil?
    If you don't know a whole lot about tuning/fixing motors I agree on getting someone to give you a hand in fixing it in person to go over it. It might save some $$$ and headache.

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: 440newport] #254083
    03/15/09 04:24 PM
    03/15/09 04:24 PM

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    I agree but I just talked to Summit Racing and they said get the car running and start feeling different ignition parts for getting hot. The second I touched the plug on the modual on the fire wall the car quit. I restarted the car and wiggled the plug lightly again and the car quit. Still under warrantee and they are sending me a new assembly, I am hoping that is the problem, what do you think.

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254084
    03/15/09 04:35 PM
    03/15/09 04:35 PM
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    stumpy Offline
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    Is the module grounded good witha bare metal surface?

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: stumpy] #254085
    03/15/09 04:36 PM
    03/15/09 04:36 PM

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    yes made sure and double checked, I think it is with the three terminals that the plug plugs into

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254086
    03/15/09 04:45 PM
    03/15/09 04:45 PM
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    McGregor,Iowa 52157
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    500ciDuster Offline
    top fuel
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    Right when it dies pull the coil wire and ram a screw driver in it,leave a small gap to ground,then turn it over to see if it has spark.

    Mitch

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254087
    03/15/09 05:24 PM
    03/15/09 05:24 PM
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    Hunt Valley, Maryland
    1fastrunner Offline
    top fuel
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    If the backfire out the back is like a shotgun blast, you might want to replace the ballast and also check for proper resistance for your system.
    Jim

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: 1fastrunner] #254088
    03/15/09 05:40 PM
    03/15/09 05:40 PM

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    it does and I am going to replace the balaster, modual, and distributor. Summit Racing was kind enough to send all new parts tomorrow. I am really thinking this is the problem

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254089
    03/15/09 06:20 PM
    03/15/09 06:20 PM
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    lets see,you live in wisconsin,car sat all winter .I would say you frooze the bat. or your alt.is not charging. I know that when a msd system gets below 9 or 10 volts they quit working.

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: 540DUSTER] #254090
    03/15/09 08:30 PM
    03/15/09 08:30 PM
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    Posts: 241
    wisconsin
    dodger1 Offline
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    Its a posibility that the floats geting stuck in the carb from sitting all winter, I live in Wisconsin I start my car once evey time its gets to 40 or more also I disconnect the battery now and it doesnt lose charge as much,try tapping te float bowl or checking them.Goodluck

    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: dodger1] #254091
    03/15/09 09:02 PM
    03/15/09 09:02 PM

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    I really think it is the ignition modual on the firewall at this point. I have checked the fuel level so many times and each time it is right where it should be.

    Re: very sad 440-6 #254092
    03/15/09 09:39 PM
    03/15/09 09:39 PM
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    Try this.. after car is hot and then stalls, plug a spark plug and ground the tip on the body. Crank it over and see if you have spark. No spark means you can eliminate the fuel system and problem is in the electrical/ignition.
    For an electrical issue, try this...after running for a little while, take the negative battery cable off while engine is running. If car stalls immediately, have your alternator looked at.
    What is the volts in the battery after it stalls? If not over 12 then alternator is prob. bad too

    If peeps already mentioned these, forgive my remittance.

    Last edited by roadrunninMark; 03/15/09 09:42 PM.
    Re: very sad 440-6 [Re: roadrunninMark] #254093
    03/15/09 10:38 PM
    03/15/09 10:38 PM
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    Posts: 836
    lancaster, new york
    macmic87 Offline
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    in the future, i would update to the chrome ign. module and an epoxy filled coil (msd 8222). and the next time you have it running check voltage at the battery (13.5 - 14.5)

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