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#2537403 - 08/16/18 08:21 PM Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices.
Uberpube Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/30/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Southern Alberta
I spent some time on my 1978 440 SE ram charger that makes a blistering 120 rwhp. I've got it tuned, it runs very smooth, starts off the key like an EFI vehicle. , it just makes no power being a smogger 440 at 3800 feet of altitude. I did a leak down and its less than 8% across all the cylinders, the cranking compression is all in the 120's. The pistons are most like down a 1/4 in the hole at TDC.
The motor runs well enough I am not going to do a full overhaul, so what I thought I should do, is throw a set of heads on it to give it a bump. What aftermarket head would be the best for this to give it a compression bump and not end up with quench issues?
It looks and sounds to me like its got had the full edelbrock performer package thrown at it, it has performer intake, 1411 carb, the timing change is double roller, and it idles with a mild lope, so I would hazard a guess its got the performer cam in it.

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#2537417 - 08/16/18 09:12 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 11194
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I’d do the 75cc E Streets..... maybe even mill them down some
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60'
WD- Comp Cams / Indy Cylinder Heads

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#2537419 - 08/16/18 09:17 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
R/T1968R/T Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 518
Loc: New York
I think you need to read this https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/dyno-testing-a-stock-1972-440.249866/ you will be surprised how much a smogger can make!

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#2537586 - 08/17/18 10:13 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: fast68plymouth]
BSB67 Online   content
master

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 3563
Loc: Prospect, PA
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I’d do the 75cc E Streets..... maybe even mill them down some


This. I would swing the extra $ for the milling. Do the intake sides too.
_________________________
500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes 4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter 11.68 @ 120.2 mph

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#2537788 - 08/17/18 04:48 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
parksr5 Offline
mopar

Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 593
Loc: Oh
At what point on a build like this do you reach a point where you have just too much flow or too good of a head? For example, would the Trick Flow 240 heads be too much? At some point you loose velocity if the head flows too much.

With some of the newer motors, it just makes me wonder. Some of the newer heads are flowing very well but, have smaller cams, maybe not killer compression etc. The newer cars are running very well, can you apply the same thing here?

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#2537800 - 08/17/18 05:07 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
Iowan Offline
super stock

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 926
Loc: Lost in Time
At one time when I was full of the vigor of a younger man I had a full size 77 Dodge Monaco with a lean burn 440,long story short hemi cam, new ignition conversion, reworked the carb and duel exhaust with a gear change in the rear end. That pig went from 17.50s to 15.50s in the quarter, it was my shop loaner car for a few years and everyone loved it. It had 65k on the clock when I paid $150 for it in 88.
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Have a great day
Iowan

"obsolete is neat, the older I get the better I was"


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#2537974 - 08/17/18 11:31 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: parksr5]
Uberpube Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/30/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Southern Alberta
Originally Posted By parksr5
At what point on a build like this do you reach a point where you have just too much flow or too good of a head? For example, would the Trick Flow 240 heads be too much? At some point you loose velocity if the head flows too much.

With some of the newer motors, it just makes me wonder. Some of the newer heads are flowing very well but, have smaller cams, maybe not killer compression etc. The newer cars are running very well, can you apply the same thing here?

I was thinking the same thing. Like the modern hemi, big flow heads, relatively mild cam. I started looking at the EDEL stuff and am now thinking of doing heads and the pro flow xt efi package. What would be the advantage of the e heads vs the performer rpm heads? and versus 440 stealth heads and aero heads?
I would like this thing at least to be able to do a spin out in gravel, which it won't right now.
I've been through it with a scope and wideband 02, everythings right, its just mushy soft, the 77 ram charger I had with a 360 4bbl actually was faster than this thing, it had 3.55's though instead of the 3.23's this thing has. I have a set of 4.10 dana 60's for it.

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#2537986 - 08/18/18 12:04 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33995
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:
I spent some time on my 1978 440 SE ram charger that makes a blistering 120 rwhp.
I had one & as you know it is a heavyweight. OT consider a 440source 543 RB stroker kit! ($2250 iirc). You need torque.
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#2538206 - 08/18/18 04:58 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
MoparBilly Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4310
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
10.5 to 1 440, with the small Comp Magnum 270/470 hyd. cam. Went from slightly ported 906s to Modern ported Stealths. Dropped our 3800lb 67 Belvedere from 13.20s to 12.70s. Flow matters even on a mild engine.
_________________________
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines

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#2538236 - 08/18/18 06:45 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
Uberpube Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/30/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Southern Alberta
Flow and velocity, be interesting if you could see the difference between compression ratios with a changing VE, a higher VE with a lower compression ratio, could maybe make more power, as more chamber volume, but that would change the blow down pressure and would require the right cam.. Getting complicated, maybe I should just pro charge the slug....

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#2538646 - 08/19/18 05:50 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 5638
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario Canada
There is a big crutch in this motor and you are trying to build around it.

Take those pistons out and throw them in the garbage. Start off with a piston that rums up to the deck and combustion chamber size and gasket thickness from there.

I agree with port velocity and small cam. This is exactly how modern engines do it. From 1.7L Honda engines to LS7 Corvettes.

I'm sick of seeing slow 440's, time to represent.
_________________________
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super

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#2538774 - 08/19/18 10:15 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
Uberpube Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/30/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Southern Alberta
I don't want to go that far into it really, if I am gonna go full motor, a gen 3 hemi swap would probably make a lot more sense. If I could change the heads and put some of the big block headers I have sitting around to use and make 300 at the wheel I would be ok with that.

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#2539142 - 08/20/18 03:09 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
wyrmrider Offline
member

Registered: 08/18/18
Posts: 18
Loc: CA
We rebuilt a lot of 440 Motorhome/ Industrial motors many LPG, CNG
here's the formula
if doing a rebuild do the stroker
If using the stock heads use the KB quench dome pistons (I helped design them) shoot for 9:1 when heavy or if towing
else wedge chamber heads with reverse dome piston to get whatever CR you want
you want tight quench .030-.035
We used Potvin/ Moon cam in the busses but best for you now would be a short Voodoo, Custom Howard or Bullet, or Mike Jones Motorhome .904 hyd
256 @.006 .305 lobe lift single pattern ok with headers, stock exhaust a little more exhaust The Jones cam has 50% more duration at .275 than the Mopar Performance 260 while being shorter on the seat
Work on the advance curve
these three thing together dropped the EGT in the busses 800 degrees
stock rockers will be fine
cheers
Those Headers should be done already...
OEM TQ works good, al DP manifold saves weight and does not help power below 3-4000- where you need it]
post up your cranking compression
if you tear it down measure deck height at all 4 corners and write it down
cheers

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#2541007 - 08/24/18 05:25 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16211
FORGET CHANGING THE HEADS!

I figured out a rebuild for my friend's '75 440 3/4 ton 4x4. It went like this:
KB 184 pistons with stock heads.
Hughes hydraulic camshaft closest thing now is SEH1620BL-12
Headers
Stock Thermoquad
I cant remember whether it used a Performer or a stock intake.

Horsepower and fuel economy doubled, from 7 to 15mpg. Truck now had some zip. He was extremely happy. The expense and aggravation were worth the money.

Your stock pistons are so far down, probably 0.180"(7.1:1 compression), that taking 16 cc out of the heads would net you still only 8.5:1 and you'd still have the open detonation prone chamber because no squish from the piston. They've got to go.

The 184s will get you 9:1 and have squish. Attention will have to be paid for clearance between top of "quench dome" and cylinder head. Some scaremongers will try to frighten you but it usually works out pretty close.

R.



Edited by dogdays (08/24/18 05:25 PM)

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#2541039 - 08/24/18 07:15 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 11194
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I’m all for using the 184 pistons with reworked stock heads.
But...... that’s quite a bit more involved of a project than bolting on a new set of heads.

And, unless the stock heads are in remarkably good condition....... you could easily spend almost as much(or more) prepping/refurbishing them than buying the budget friendly aftermarket alternatives.

Then, when it came time to tear into the shortblock you could just use flat top pistons instead.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60'
WD- Comp Cams / Indy Cylinder Heads

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#2541115 - 08/25/18 12:29 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
wyrmrider Offline
member

Registered: 08/18/18
Posts: 18
Loc: CA
Bolting on new heads all by themselves does not fix the basic 440 problem if the pistons are down the hole
Basic problem is the spark plug is in about the worst place possible
dog days get's it
don't do it wrong
build some quench
even if you have to do a couple of trial assemblies
best answer is of course new heads without the open chamber and tight quench pistons- usually with a dish
dish is a must if you are not looking at higher than 6 pack compression

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#2541223 - 08/25/18 10:37 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
BSB67 Online   content
master

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 3563
Loc: Prospect, PA
The OP said:


Originally Posted By Uberpube

...The motor runs well enough I am not going to do a full overhaul, so what I thought I should do, is throw a set of heads on it to give it a bump. What aftermarket head would be the best for this to give it a compression bump and not end up with quench issues?

_________________________
500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes 4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter 11.68 @ 120.2 mph

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#2541229 - 08/25/18 10:47 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: Uberpube]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4987
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
wyrmrider is right that the pistons are the problem.
Even if you put the small chamber B-1 B/S heads on that are 65cc chamber, compression is still only about 9:1 compression ratio, and those heads are expensive and take an offset intake rocker arm.

I am helping Dan (Colorado Mopar) with his 440. He was thinking of using the 75cc Edelbrock E-Street heads (for cost, and about 8.4:1 compression) and mild cam, but when we checked the crank, it is shot. Over 0.004" clearance, rough surface, posable it is not even straight? Cast crank that would need to be cut, polished, balanced. After adding up all the costs to recondition the crank, rods, and change pistons we were not too far off from just getting a stroker kit, so now were going to do a 4.25" stroker kit.

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#2541241 - 08/25/18 11:29 AM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: 451Mopar]
BSB67 Online   content
master

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 3563
Loc: Prospect, PA
Sounds like your friend was already committed to a rebuild or certainly far more than the OP, with a cam and checking the crank. Once you'r that far, and you have the budget, going the rest of the way is a no brainer.

Building the ideal motor is simple, especially when it is someone else's money.

But there is such a large gap between doing heads verses doing a motor. If he does heads, it will be a marked and noticeable improvement from where he is now, he can do it in a weekend, and can easily get out of the whole deal from beginning to end between $1,500 and $2,000. Once you say the word "pistons", from the beginning to the rolling down the road complete, it will be $8,000+ and at least 6 months.
_________________________
500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes 4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter 11.68 @ 120.2 mph

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#2541259 - 08/25/18 12:27 PM Re: Smogger 440 aftermarket head choices. [Re: BSB67]
csk Offline
super stock

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1130
Loc: KATY TEXAS
Originally Posted By BSB67
Sounds like your friend was already committed to a rebuild or certainly far more than the OP, with a cam and checking the crank. Once you'r that far, and you have the budget, going the rest of the way is a no brainer.

Building the ideal motor is simple, especially when it is someone else's money.

But there is such a large gap between doing heads verses doing a motor. If he does heads, it will be a marked and noticeable improvement from where he is now, he can do it in a weekend, and can easily get out of the whole deal from beginning to end between $1,500 and $2,000. Once you say the word "pistons", from the beginning to the rolling down the road complete, it will be $8,000+ and at least 6 months.


THIS ^^^^^^
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