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#2523891 - 07/18/18 11:02 PM Gen 3 Hemi Block Info
DarrenB Offline
super stock

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: QLD Australia
Hi All. I am looking for input from some experienced & knowledgeable builders of performance Gen3's:

1. List of different engine block castings used since 2003;
2. Differences between same block castings internally & externally;
3. Most commonly used Gen3 in performance (i.e. VVT or Non-VVT)
4. Principle common areas of failure

Hoping for some additional insights.
Thanks in advance.

Darren
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Darren Beale
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#2523959 - 07/19/18 07:54 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
moparmitch Offline
member

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 140
Loc: MI, USA
My 2 cents...

Might be able to contact/inquire with these leading G3 engine builders/tuners as they would certainly be interested in the potential for a new G3 engine block.

Prefix - Formerly Arrow Racing Engines (Mopar Drag Pak engine builders)

Modern Muscle Extreme - Dave Weber

Arrington Performance

BES racing engines - Tony Bischoff

HHP - High Horse Performance

Non-VVT is used for the Drag Pak cars (NA and Supercharged) and can be modded like a traditional/old school engine block with cam and head upgrades and will accept currently produced/available aftermarket timing sets and camshafts.

VVT = production/EPA emissions derived platform. May not be the best choice for aftermarket performance build, but used in OEM forced induction builds where the VVT block can still be used. The VVT hydraulic circuit and associated block/cam timing/lifter mods would be enough hassle to stay away from this platform. It is believed that Mopar is now going to offer an aluminum VVT block. They might sell well or stack up like chord wood in warehouses - lol, only time will tell...

Provision(s) for a more traditional front timing cover and engine mounting plate would be awesome...

I think the aftermarket is in serious need for a non-VVT block that is available and affordable (as compared to the the GM LS platform), which I know isn't really a comparison...

As a possible option block - double cross-bolt the center three main caps as a KB signature tribute (make block lower skirt/exterior ribbing similar to KB big block). This probably wouldn't help with keeping cost down, but would be pretty cool.

Glad to see your interest!!!


Edited by moparmitch (07/20/18 05:46 PM)

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#2523978 - 07/19/18 08:47 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1253
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
03-08 5.7 Block = 53021319AC /AG /CB no real differences.
05-2010 6.1 Block 503788AB , some core shift issue in the later blocks
6.2/BGE block casting # 682491AA , great block, only real issue is the VVT but there are cams coming out for this VVTs and it's not the issue it use to be.
I have a timing chain that eliminates the cam phaser that I'm trying to bring to market.

the other block casting#s or part # I don't have in front of me right now.

The Ideal block would be a 6.2/BGE block with the 6.1/pre Eagle 5.7 cam structure.

Dave Web @ Modern Muscle Extreme would be the guy whose Ear you want to bend.
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#2523983 - 07/19/18 08:58 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: ric3xrt]
moparmitch Offline
member

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 140
Loc: MI, USA
Agreed...to borrow from existing OEM design (extensive/proven R&D)

-->The Ideal block would be a 6.2/BGE block with the 6.1/pre Eagle 5.7 cam structure.

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#2523998 - 07/19/18 09:25 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1253
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
in this photo are 4 of the different type of blocks, taken from the cam front.
9'o clock is a pre eagle 5.7
12 o' clock is a 6.1
3 o' clock is a 5.7 Eagle
6 o' clock is a 6.2/BGE block


Attachments
4xblocks.jpeg


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Some of us are so open minded they only see their View




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#2524116 - 07/19/18 01:05 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9905
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
I just totally dont get why people are so scared of the VVT block, it is a good system and even if you dont like the system you can easily eliminate it. The VVT BGE block has the most stable cylinder walls through partial siamesing of the bores, the best cooling passages, readily available... give me a BGE over a 6.1 any day of the week, I pais $300 for my last block.
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#2524143 - 07/19/18 02:06 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
Silver70 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 18407
Loc: Rust Belt, SW PA
With a megasquirt ms3 gold box, you can adjust the vvt values... I kept it in mine. It will be turbo charged also.
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#2524214 - 07/19/18 05:35 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: moparmitch]
DarrenB Offline
super stock

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: QLD Australia
thanks Moparmitch

This is helpful. We've already been looking in detail at this block and are committed to bringing one to market.

It will be an aluminum cast block, consistent with the brand values of KB it'll be about quality and outright strength.

Our criteria is that the block design is as extensible as possible - that is it fits as many available parts as existing shelf items as possible, as well as fits into as many cars that are on the road as possible without modification.

We want a block that will handle 3-3,500hp & similar torque numbers. In this regard we know where the obvious weaknesses, & it's essential to engage with racers and those testing existing design limitations.
I believe we have the bottom-end of the Gen3 sorted and you're not far off the mark.

This is after all more of a small block and the main challenges would appear to be around handling extreme cylinder pressures where bore spacing & deck height are the major limiting factors on this block.
In essence, displacement VS outright strength are the tradeoff points.
Feedback so far is such that people are prepared to tradeoff displacement as most end users are seeking to employ high-boost/power adding options over displacement.


Our Gen3 block will be undeniably KB.

Appreciate your help.
DB
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Darren Beale
Keith Black, Inc.

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#2524215 - 07/19/18 05:38 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: ric3xrt]
DarrenB Offline
super stock

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: QLD Australia
thanks ric3xrt.
Keep me posted on your new timing chain development.

Any more photos of VVT block differences VS non-vvt block differences would be appreciated, including cam, crank, chain, phaser (components) etc.

cheers DB


Edited by DarrenB (07/19/18 05:40 PM)
Edit Reason: missed pics in subsequent post
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#2524397 - 07/20/18 07:17 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
moparmitch Offline
member

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 140
Loc: MI, USA
Hi Darren,

Thanks, and it's great to see you and your team are going to bring a new G3 block to market - awesome news!

To offer more mental loose change...

There's also opportunities for intake manifolds (similar to Holley/LS modular offerings) as well as higher quality Drag Pak style intakes. If I had a manufacturing facility in my backyard, I would make a modular intake manifold that would accidentally accept the majority of the many aftermarket GM/LS top-half pieces and their associated throttle bodies.

As previously mentioned, a much needed front cover to match/fit the shape of the "bird house" on the block that would also directly accept aftermarket electric water pumps would make sense. It's hard to believe someone hasn't made one of these (Edelbrock comes to mind). We know that a motor plate would then mount sensibly too...

The aftermarket currently offers minimal, but reasonable product support for the non-VVT/6.1L based blocks and Mopar contributes some support as well. However, more G3 product producers would be better!

Myself, and I'm sure many others, are looking forward to seeing what the folks at KB will be offering for the G3 platform.

Can you offer a tease for when we might see something happen?

Thanks!
Mitch

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#2524422 - 07/20/18 08:30 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: moparmitch]
fbs63 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1306
Loc: NW Indiana
Be great if you could make the casting able to machine std or plus .300 deck height. I know the plus .300 deck would require a custom manifold but anyone building an engine of this caliber wouldn't care anyway.

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#2524579 - 07/20/18 01:16 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
RylisPro Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 2350
Loc: NorCal
I think that it's awesome more manufacturers are producing aluminum Gen3 Hemi blocks!

Would there be major differences with your block vs. the Gen3 H3MI blocks available from High Horse Performance?

-Aluminum Water H3MI Block - $5,495
-Compatible with all Gen III 6.1L H3MI engine parts 
-Blocks are Manufactured from 357 Aluminum 
-Weight Approx. 110 LBS
-4.050 Bore 
-Lifter bores can be opened to 1.060" for a bushed-style lifter 
-Can be Machined for Large Keyway Lifter and 60 mm Cam Tunnel 
-Camshaft bearing support area increased to permit a 60mm roller bearing 
-Billet steel main caps with 4-bolt center caps strengthen the bottom end for severe applications 
-Crankcase clearance for 4.125" stroke crank (4.250" will fit with machining around oil drainbacks) 
-ARP Main Studs
http://www.gen3blocks.com
http://www.highhorseperformance.com/Gen3_Performance_Aluminum_HEMI_Bare_Water_Block_p/g3ppawb.htm
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#2524588 - 07/20/18 01:25 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: RylisPro]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16275
How about a 9.600 tall deck? How about chevy bellhousing bolt pattern? Those would of course cost extra.

R.

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#2524669 - 07/20/18 04:31 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
DarrenB Offline
super stock

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: QLD Australia
thanks for your suggestions, RylisPro be assured our block will occupy a unique position in the market for sure.

Does anyone have any photos they can share of VVT / Non-VVT casting variation close ups? parts? - crankshaft front journal. Camshaft front journal / timing gears/locating areas? Did any castings come without MDS?

moparmitch I'd like to have something for people to look at @ PRI this, but there are many many third-party related time variables that will dictate this.
We've had our challenges in the 18 months but have starting producing our Gen-2 HEMI/WEDGE with all new tooling & castings, including a number of design improvements. I have just signed off our new Big Block Chevrolet engine block, is now moving into pre-prodction so we have been busy behind the scenes.

Gen3 is next in the program. DB
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Darren Beale
Keith Black, Inc.

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#2524673 - 07/20/18 04:35 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
Silver70 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 18407
Loc: Rust Belt, SW PA
The manual trans motors did not have mds, just block off plugs.

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#2524744 - 07/20/18 07:00 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
hudsonhornet7x Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 1117
Loc: Plumer, Pa
Darren B you have a private message. Thanks!
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#2531463 - 08/04/18 10:51 AM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: DarrenB]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1253
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Here's some photo's , let me know what other angles you need.
top 2 are 6.1 bottom is a Hellcat block


Attachments
6.1 cam front a.jpg

6.1 cam front.jpg

6.2BGE Cam front.jpg




Edited by ric3xrt (08/04/18 10:52 AM)
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Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View




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#2532535 - 08/06/18 08:17 PM Re: Gen 3 Hemi Block Info [Re: ric3xrt]
DarrenB Offline
super stock

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: QLD Australia
thanks Ric3xrt. I have been working through these in detail. Appreciate the pictures. I've PM'd you.
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Darren Beale
Keith Black, Inc.

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