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4 or 5 speeds #2523599
07/18/18 02:28 PM
07/18/18 02:28 PM
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Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline OP
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I broke my Richmond 5 speed a couple weeks ago at the track (2nd gear).
I'm in a bind because Richmond doesn't make parts for that transmission any more.
I'm going to de-tune the engine and want to make the car where I can drive it wherever.

What should I do? I like the 4 or 5 speed deal because the car came with a 4 speed.

I have a 727 with a real good converter. (Easy button)

Look for parts for the Richmond (Real hard to find)

Go to a 4 speed?

HELP! help

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523619
07/18/18 03:08 PM
07/18/18 03:08 PM
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East Brunswick New Jersey
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Did you try calling liberty? They might have what you need to get the Richmond going again

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523632
07/18/18 03:39 PM
07/18/18 03:39 PM
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Oregon
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I didn't know Richmond wasn't supporting the transmissions anymore. I have a Doug Nash 5 speed in my car and I guess I just assumed I'd be able to buy parts for it if I ever needed to repair or rebuild it.

The least expensive path would be to find a used Richmond box and rob it for parts. Everything else starts to cost money since you'll have to do a bunch of conversion work.

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523639
07/18/18 04:07 PM
07/18/18 04:07 PM
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Usually breaking gears is a clutch issue.

I think either Liberty of G Force was supplying parts for those Richmond boxes. In fact, IIRC because it's been years since I've been in one don't they use Chrysler sliders and some other Chrysler parts?


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523641
07/18/18 04:10 PM
07/18/18 04:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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I run a Doug Nash 5 speed and get parts from Liberty Gears. While Richmond is more street I would think Liberty would carry anything needed. Also I have bought used gears from Liberty at a fraction of new. Give them a call,if they don't have what you needed they should have a idea where to find parts. Try looking on e-bay ?


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523727
07/18/18 06:46 PM
07/18/18 06:46 PM
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Alvadore OR
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I have a Doug Nash street trans Im about to use. Ive been concerned about breaking it. What engine / car combination do you have?

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Acme Rocket] #2523764
07/18/18 07:38 PM
07/18/18 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted By Acme Rocket
I have a Doug Nash street trans Im about to use. Ive been concerned about breaking it. What engine / car combination do you have?



What clutch are you using? That's the number 1 parts breaker.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: madscientist] #2523776
07/18/18 08:04 PM
07/18/18 08:04 PM
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Alvadore OR
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I have a Centerforce dual Friction. I realize I probably need a slipper type clutch. Its suppose to just be a street car that only goes to the strip once or twice a year. I plan on putting slicks on it when I go to the track. Possibly Radials

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Acme Rocket] #2523779
07/18/18 08:14 PM
07/18/18 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted By Acme Rocket
I have a Centerforce dual Friction. I realize I probably need a slipper type clutch. Its suppose to just be a street car that only goes to the strip once or twice a year. I plan on putting slicks on it when I go to the track. Possibly Radials



You need a better clutch. Radials will be tough with a stick.

That clutch is a parts breaker. You can run a Sof-Lok on the street. I do.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523789
07/18/18 08:51 PM
07/18/18 08:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline OP
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I think I found parts.

The car is a 1969 Roadrunner, 469, 5 speed, Dana 60, CalTracs.
Only semi light part on the car is the fiberglass 6 pac hood.
I believe it is pushing 4000lbs with me in it.
Best run was 11.39 @ 123mph 6000' DA (Fallon Nevada)

I'll keep you guys posted but it is going to be a while. I have two other cars to finish

1972 340 Duster B/Gas 8.60 Index (for now)

10.5" Tire, Stock Suspension 1971 Demon

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: madscientist] #2523804
07/18/18 09:23 PM
07/18/18 09:23 PM
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Alvadore OR
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Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By Acme Rocket
I have a Centerforce dual Friction. I realize I probably need a slipper type clutch. Its suppose to just be a street car that only goes to the strip once or twice a year. I plan on putting slicks on it when I go to the track. Possibly Radials



You need a better clutch. Radials will be tough with a stick.

That clutch is a parts breaker. You can run a Sof-Lok on the street. I do.


Who makes the Sof-Loc? Can you tell me more about it. All I've ever ran was Dual frictions and yes I have broken lots of parts. I've always known the centerforce was the culprit and probably to blame for poor 60' #s. I've read pros and cons about slipper clutches on the street. My thought with a radial was maybe the car wouldn't dead hook. I don't know though.

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523805
07/18/18 09:26 PM
07/18/18 09:26 PM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
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Yes, you need a soft loc style clutch. That dual friction will tear stuff up. Lots of parts are available through Liberty's Gears, new and used. Great people to deal with.

Soft Loc is the nickname for most Long style pressure plates. They can come pre-set, adjustable base pressures, and adjustable base and counterweight. I have always liked Ram over McLeod. Custom and modified clutch setups can be had from Hyatt, Advanced and Black Magic. All excellent clutches, and people who run them. You can't go wrong with any of them.

Last edited by sgcuda; 07/18/18 09:29 PM.
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: sgcuda] #2523808
07/18/18 09:45 PM
07/18/18 09:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
Yes, you need a soft loc style clutch. That dual friction will tear stuff up. Lots of parts are available through Liberty's Gears, new and used. Great people to deal with.

Soft Loc is the nickname for most Long style pressure plates. They can come pre-set, adjustable base pressures, and adjustable base and counterweight. I have always liked Ram over McLeod. Custom and modified clutch setups can be had from Hyatt, Advanced and Black Magic. All excellent clutches, and people who run them. You can't go wrong with any of them.


So I have a clutch that is a high-breed, it is a DFX (Centerforce) pressure plate with a 6 puck ceramic spring loaded disk.

The car weighs a lot and a Centerforce duel friction would not hold.

The power level is not way up there probably about 700hp

Would a good Ram clutch work better for me?

I was launching the car at 6000-6300rpm (Probably pretty hard on things)

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2523816
07/18/18 10:19 PM
07/18/18 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted By Biginchmopar
Originally Posted By sgcuda
Yes, you need a soft loc style clutch. That dual friction will tear stuff up. Lots of parts are available through Liberty's Gears, new and used. Great people to deal with.

Soft Loc is the nickname for most Long style pressure plates. They can come pre-set, adjustable base pressures, and adjustable base and counterweight. I have always liked Ram over McLeod. Custom and modified clutch setups can be had from Hyatt, Advanced and Black Magic. All excellent clutches, and people who run them. You can't go wrong with any of them.


So I have a clutch that is a high-breed, it is a DFX (Centerforce) pressure plate with a 6 puck ceramic spring loaded disk.

The car weighs a lot and a Centerforce duel friction would not hold.

The power level is not way up there probably about 700hp

Would a good Ram clutch work better for me?

I was launching the car at 6000-6300rpm (Probably pretty hard on things)




That disc is a parts breaker. The above post named some manufacturers of a clutch like you need. What you want is a sintered iron disc and a pressure plate with long fingers and adjustable spring pressures. You will most likely run 1000 pounds or less plate load. If you run some counterweight you can use even less base pressure.

I used Black Magic clutches for my last clutch. Cale is a great guy to work with. Any of the above can get you where you need to be.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: madscientist] #2523851
07/18/18 11:47 PM
07/18/18 11:47 PM
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Finally, someone I can help, usually I'm asking for help.

Jeg's and Summit are selling new gears I think made by Motive
Gear, who owns Richmond. I got them dropped shipped from
Midwest Truck and Auto, big distributorship in Chicago.

I don't think they have every gear yet for every ratio, but
I got gears for my ROD-6, which has some gears in common
with the 5-spd.

Get the gear part numbers from the Richmond website and type
it into Jeg's or Summit.

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: hemienvy] #2524153
07/19/18 04:41 PM
07/19/18 04:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline OP
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I called Mid West direct and they said they had what I need. up

I look into the clutches and talk to some folks and see what is best for my combo.

East West clutch is right down the road so I'll stop in and bug those guys.

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2524187
07/19/18 06:21 PM
07/19/18 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted By Biginchmopar
I broke my Richmond 5 speed a couple weeks ago at the track (2nd gear).
I'm in a bind because Richmond doesn't make parts for that transmission any more.
I'm going to de-tune the engine and want to make the car where I can drive it wherever.

What should I do? I like the 4 or 5 speed deal because the car came with a 4 speed.

HELP! help


No need to de-tune. All you need to quit breaking parts is something to control the hit of your current clutch. Basically just something to hold back a little clamp pressure initially, which would allow it to slip a little longer than it does now.

Every clutch/engine/chassis combination has a "sweet spot" zone in the clutch pedal's release travel, where the clutch slips just enough to launch the car efficiently without bogging the engine. A given clutch's "sweet spot" zone typically starts when throwout bearing pressure drops to a point where a clutch's holding power roughly matches the torque output of the engine. The end point of that zone is typically defined by throwout bearing pressure falling to a point where the clutch either draws more torque/inertia than the drivetrain/chassis/tires can handle, or drags the engine down/out of it's power range too quickly. Basically the goal is to reach that sweet spot zone as quickly as possible, but then to stay within that zone long enough to prevent excessive bog or broken parts.

The below graph shows the typical shapes of throwout bearing pressure curves that result from using increasing amounts of simple hydraulic restriction to slow the movement of the clutch pedal…



For this example, lets say the sweet spot zone starts as T-brg pressure reaches 200Psi, and extends until the point where pressure falls below 100Psi. Notice that from the time of initial pedal release, it takes a bit of time for the clutch to reach 200Psi. Notice the 3.5t curve above takes about 1.2 seconds to reach the 200Psi mark, which is the start of this application's "sweet spot" zone. Curves 4t, 4.5t, and 5t all take more than 3 seconds to reach 200Psi. Because drag racers typically want things to happen almost instantly, this graph shows that an actual usable release curve needs to drop almost vertical to minimize delay of the hit.

Here's a graph showing my ClutchTamer's separately adjustable "initial hit" feature, which allows throwout bearing pressure to instantly drop to a given "sweet spot" pressure zone before any actual delay of clutch pedal movement starts. The point where the lines go from vertical drop to horizontal is what we refer to as the "hit" point, notice that all the lines reach their "hit" point almost instantly. Simple hydraulic restriction devices do not have the ability to do this...



Basically the ClutchTamer's adjustable "initial hit" feature allows lines 5/6/7/8 to almost instantly drop into the 200-100Psi "sweet spot" zone, with each hitting the chassis/tires progressively harder. Line 9 drops slightly below the sweet spot zone, more likely to bog the engine or knock the tires loose. All the above lines were produced using the same delay setting. Switching to less delay would result in the clutch passing thru the sweet spot more quickly, resulting in less clutch wear/tear while increasing bog or possibly causing broken parts. More delay would slow pedal travel thru the sweet spot, allowing the car more time to gain speed before clutch lockup, which reduces bog.

If you want minimal slip after the shift, it's possible to do that with the ClutchTamer...adjust the pedal stop deeper, then just stab the pedal when shifting instead of bouncing it off the stop. But here's something to think about- if the clutch slipping after the shift improves recovery by 500rpm, on a typical 10.0 sec 3100lb car that can easily equal an additional 40hp or so for a few tenths of a second or more after each shift.

Here's a comparison of two nearly identical back-to-back runs with zero wheelspin during launch and "clutchless" shifts. The blue pass has less clutch delay and bogs to 4622 rpm at .728 sec into the run. The only difference with the yellow pass is an additional 1/2 turn of delay added to the ClutchTamer adjustment, which caused a decaying amount of slip to be added after each shift. The added slip time raised the bog rpm to 5202 which increased hp output, and it reached the top of 1st gear 0.089 sec quicker. The added slip time also slightly reduced the wheelspeed spikes after the shifts, which improved net power overall to the point where the yellow pass reached the same driveshaft rpm 0.502 seconds quicker at the top of high gear. Notice that the car gains rpm at exactly the same rates in each gear on both passes. The improvements come on the parts of the graph where the engine is losing rpm, which are basically controlled by the clutch...



Here's a graph with just the engine/driveshaft ratio displayed, so you can better see the differences in clutch slip time...



As you can see, it didn't take much of an increase in slip time to make a huge difference in ET.

Grant

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2524205
07/19/18 07:08 PM
07/19/18 07:08 PM
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Carson City, Nevada
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I would love to slip the clutch, I even have an air cylinder set-up to do so. I might try it, we will see.

I don't believe the clutch broke the trans, I shifted it into second and it exploded the gear. I use the clutch to shift the car.

If this was a race only deal I would do things different. This mostly a street car that I take to the track a couple times a year.

I did look at Ram Clutches and they have some nice stuff, I might try them and see if I can launch the car without problems.

Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2524209
07/19/18 07:18 PM
07/19/18 07:18 PM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
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Contact American Powertrain and see what they have to say. I use their clutch package.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: 4 or 5 speeds [Re: Biginchmopar] #2524234
07/19/18 08:59 PM
07/19/18 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted By Biginchmopar
I would love to slip the clutch, I even have an air cylinder set-up to do so. I might try it, we will see.

I don't believe the clutch broke the trans, I shifted it into second and it exploded the gear. I use the clutch to shift the car.

If this was a race only deal I would do things different. This mostly a street car that I take to the track a couple times a year.


Any clutch has the potential to hit the input shaft with it's full capacity, up to the point where it begins to slip. Engine power doesn't really matter, because your big block inertia is there to make up the difference.

If your clutch's max capacity is 850ftlbs, that's what the input shaft will see when you dump the clutch with traction, even after a shift. Basically if you dump an 850ftlb clutch behind 625ftlb of engine power, the input shaft would see that 625ftlb of wot engine power + the clutch would draw another 225ftlb of inertia energy to reach it's slip point. When it comes time to shift, 2nd gear can see 850ftlbs x the ratio at the front of the gearbox.

Adding an external clutch controller can reduce that inertia draw from your current clutch, but there's also the option of installing a clutch with less holding power. It might be hard to believe, but a clutch with less holding power, one better matched to your engine, will also make your car quicker.

Grant

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