Wondering how much + caster adjustment is eaten up using just the cams to get negative camber, and if the spacers that Mancini sells helps to regain that...anyone cobble up a set of their own camber spacers?

I use readily available bronze bushings from the local hardware/farm store. Bring a bolt with you.

That is why they are made, to get the most out of the stock limitations. You will be able to bring the front eccentrics out more and in turn gain more caster.

So I've got a question about these things.

I just got my tires back on the ground after a suspension overhaul. New QA1 UCAs, QA1 LCAs, Hotchkis/Fox Shocks, 1.14" Torsion bars/Hotchkis lowering leaf springs, fresh lower ball joints...and Mancini's camber spacers.

So I got everything bolted back together and per some advice that I received on FABO forums, I messed with the cam bolts on the UCAs and tried to get the max amount of caster as possible before taking it out on the road...but a quick ride up the road proved that this thing is WAY out. It pulled hard to the left. After getting it back to the driveway, it almost looked like I had some toe-out???

I never touched the tie rods...so could this be related to these camber spacers? I'm having trouble visualizing how that could be related or not...

the steering arms are part of the lower balljoint, so putting spacers between them and the spindle effectively shortens the tierod length, thus toe out occurs. [i'm talking rear steer, factory setup] in other words, the steering arm must physically be pushed inward to bolt up to your tierod assembly when you didn't alter your tierod length after you used the spacers. the tierod needs to be lengthened to get the toe back where it should be.

Thanks!! That all makes sense.
For whatever reason, it was difficult to work out the geometry in my head...

The fact remains; you can’t change just one thing about your suspension. It’s a system of interdependent variables...that will drive you insane if you’re only vaguely mechanically literate.

Bingo! They are all inter-dependant and working in three dimensions. Its easy to create an unintended issue by simply changing one thing.

Maybe you need to go look at that again.

You are changing the relationship of the steering arm to the spindle, not to the LCA, or the tierods. the tierods relationship to the steering arm is fixed by the location of the LCA ball joint mounting hole. Unless you are only putting one spacer ont he spindle then it matters not.

Odds are better that all the front suspension work he did is the culprit, I quote



Front suspension

^ right

I'm sure toe is different than it was (moving the upper ball joint to get your extra caster will put the LBJ steering arm in a slightly different spot), but I'm not sure it would be enough to make it pull hard left.

It's probably your caster/camber that is making it pull. I would just do an initial setup with the rear adjusters rotated all the way in, and the front rotated straight up and then see how it looks.

you are correct, but. he said it appears to be toed OUT. after all the suspension work done, it definitely needs an alignment. if you replace the tierods and set the lengths the same as the originals, you still need to correct the toe due to the different [new] parts used. adding the spacers to the steering arms WILL effectively shorten the tierod due to the reasons i stated. doesn't matter if the spacers are 1/4" thick or 1/2" thick. and yes, this DOES change the relationship of the steering arm to the spindle, and your other points are indeed valid. however, the OP asked why his ride could be "toed out", and i told him [only] one possibility. this does NOT answer his question of why it pulls one way or the other. all three adjustable items on front suspensions can, and will, cause a pull if way out of wack. [as you know] an alignment is definitely needed due to all the parts replaced. [i fully agree with you]

The input is gratefully received, guys.

I spent a few hours tinkering with the suspension, leaving it at what I believe to be the max caster position (front UCA pivot all the way out, rears all the way in) and adjusting everything else around it to get the toe approximately right. This required a LOT of toe adjustment too. My goal was to get it at least good enough to drive it to the alignment shop. I'll be damned if it doesn't drive pretty damn well, if I do say so myself. A few things don't feel quite right yet but I'm keeping the speeds low until I can get the actual alignment done.

The thing that worries me is that there is still a crazy amount of negative camber. Yes, I want SOME negative camber but this just seems excessive. The camber spacers may have to come out.

Who feels like they have good Mopar alignment specs for backroads/canyon carving/autocross?

If you rotate the rear cams out some you will lose some more negative camber, but also lose some caster too. It's all a balancing act.

It's hard to tell from the pic how aggressive that neg. camber actually is, it's a weird angle...

1/2 to 1 1/2 negative camber depends on how many miles driven

3 up to 5 positive caster

1/16” toe in

And large carpenters “L square” is helpful to set a rough camber before the trip to the alignment shop. Measure difference from top and bottom of 15” rim edge. 1 degree is 0.26” difference. 1/2 degree is half that distance: 0.13”

Ok...but I thought it was the other way around. Adding caster moves camber in positive direction, more negative camber= less caster??




Thanks yet again, autoxcuda for sharing your wisdom. I'll keep that on a card in my pocket for whenever I can get to the shop.

Too much negative camber has obvious drawbacks but what's the downside to too much positive caster?

it depends on which cam you are turning, either of the cam bolts rotated to the outside of the car will move the top of the tire out, positive camber.

rotating the front cam out moves the ball joint to the rear of the car, pos caster.
rotating the rear cam out will move the ball joint forward, you lose pos caster.

Just remember 1/4” to get one degree

Too much caster is some debate on that. Just everyday driver ho-hum car could get tire wear from over 3 deg caster.

I think over 6 degree is no difference. Also caster changes increases/changes scrub radius. There’s some weight jacking from it you see on a set of scales. Depending on your setup, that could be bad or good.

Nice looking ride

The camber spacers were one of the parts we developed while tuning the Red Brick. Here is a race day picture. I don't remember the specs that Tim used for racing but he had a fair amount of camber cranked into it. That is what you need to get the tire temp even at the track. Not really recommended for street use but it gets it around the track faster.

What autoxcuda said is how I align my cars. You can't drive to the shop when you're racing. I've done it this way for 30 years on every car I've owned. I run close to -1° on the race car, and around -1/8° on my street cars. The most +caster I can get, but from what I've read, +4° is what you want to shoot for. Even side to side is what's most important, and to check that with the carpenter's square method, just turn the steering wheel left one full turn, and measure the difference between the top and bottom like you did with the camber. Compare that number to what it is with the wheels pointing straight ahead. Turn the steering wheel straight ahead, and continue turning right the same amount you turned left before. Measure the difference top and bottom to the carpenter's square, subtract that from the number it is with the wheels pointing straight again like you did the left side, and if the difference is equal to the left side, so is your caster.

What caster does is lean the tire left or right when you turn the wheel left or right. Picture a Harley chopper. The front wheel has massive positive caster. Imagine what happens to it when the handle bars are turned left or right. The tire leans because the pivot point of the fork is at such a high angle. That's what happens to your car, too. The tires lean into the turn if you have positive caster. The pivot point on your car is the ball joints. The more caster you have, the more it leans, and that's what you're measuring.

Every time you adjust an upper control arm eccentric, you change the toe because the outer tie rod is in a different plane from the lower ball joint pivot point, so you always have to readjust toe, and do it last. I can take pics demonstrating all this if you want.

To get the camber angle, use this calculator: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp The distance between the measurements you're taking on your rim will be "c". The difference between those measurements will be "a". Click calculate, and the number in "A" will be your camber. If you want the actual caster number, you'll have to turn the tires left and right 20°, and use this formula: Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

That was a great explanation there. Thank you.