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Drum Brake Help #2500752
05/26/18 07:22 PM
05/26/18 07:22 PM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline OP
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I feel like amateur hour over here... After the car sat in the garage over the winter I discovered the passenger side rear wheel cylinder was leaking. I popped the drum off to discover the shoes had been reduced to sludge in addition to the cable that holds the adjuster lock was snapped. I got new shoes, a new cable and a new cylinder while reusing the rest after soaking it gas overnight (was just the springs anyhow).

I got it all back together, bleed the one side and off I went. Now, I didn't replace the shoes on the driver's side as they're basically new. I Figured drums are self adjusting, so there was nothing to worry about.

After the test ride the passenger rear was smoking. Obliviously the shoes were stuck engaging the drum. Once it cooled though the drum slid right off with no effort. Dumb founded I ran the adjuster all the way in, slid the drum back on and took it out again - same result. So I pulled it apart again expecting to see the adjuster at least a few turns out and it was still all the way in. [ Moparts Family Site - Keep it Friendly ] am I doing wrong? I've reassembled drums countless times and never experienced this.

The drum smokes every time I take it out, but when I take it apart there is no resistance to taking it apart.

I only dissembled the problem side and only bled the this one side. Pedal feel is normal and car stops OK otherwise.

Does anything look out of place to you guys in these photos?

I've got a car show I'm going to in the morning and I need to figure this out. I'm completely stumped...

20180526_164948.jpg20180526_164958.jpg20180526_165016.jpg20180526_165026.jpg
Last edited by MarkM; 05/26/18 07:38 PM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500761
05/26/18 07:59 PM
05/26/18 07:59 PM
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ruderunner Offline
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Loose wheel bearing? Will leak gear oil and if bad enough will cause brake drag.

Hard to tell from pics but if the bottom of the shoes show wear, take a closer look at the bearing.


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Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500765
05/26/18 08:07 PM
05/26/18 08:07 PM
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stumpy Offline
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It seems to me there should be a retainer that should be between the shoes and the adjuster cable on the top.
https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.7sMt8GZNsuPaXql_snEl0QHaFH&pid=Api

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: stumpy] #2500788
05/26/18 08:48 PM
05/26/18 08:48 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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What Stump said, it should have that metal piece on the 12 0'clock anchor nub. something is keeping the shoes from retracting: that nub (maybe) but it was OK before without it I am assuming. wheel cyl issue (but they are new which ain't a 100% guarantee but pretty high). shoes hanging up on the b plate smooth pads (I wouldn't think). You might have a helper push the pedal BARELY but firmly (a firm tap) with the drum off, repeatedly & you see if you spot anything amiss as the shoes expand.As you know dont let him push the wheel cyl pistons/cups anywhere near all the way out. After typing this I'm thinking something with where the shoes contact the b plate (or that top anchor). Holler how it goes.


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Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: stumpy] #2500793
05/26/18 08:52 PM
05/26/18 08:52 PM
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MarkZ Offline OP
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Here is a shot of the forward shoe. There was a bit of axle oil in the bottom of the backing plate and there is a couple thousandth of up/down play in the axle. I don't know of that constitutes a bad bearing though. It's an 8.75" and this is the side with the adjuster on it. I had it replaced not too long ago too.

And yeah, now that it's mentioned, there is a retainer missing from the top.

I don't think I'm going to make that show tomorrow.

20180526_183120.jpg

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: RapidRobert] #2500798
05/26/18 09:20 PM
05/26/18 09:20 PM
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MarkZ Offline OP
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
What Stump said, it should have that metal piece on the 12 0'clock anchor nub. something is keeping the shoes from retracting: that nub (maybe) but it was OK before without it I am assuming. wheel cyl issue (but they are new which ain't a 100% guarantee but pretty high). shoes hanging up on the b plate smooth pads (I wouldn't think). You might have a helper push the pedal BARELY but firmly (a firm tap) with the drum off, repeatedly & you see if you spot anything amiss as the shoes expand.As you know dont let him push the wheel cyl pistons/cups anywhere near all the way out. After typing this I'm thinking something with where the shoes contact the b plate (or that top anchor). Holler how it goes.


I did find a little gear oil in the bottom of the backing plate. I don't know if the bearing or seal is bad. Damn thing got pretty hot.
Going to have my Dad stop by tomorrow so someone can work the brake with the tires free-wheeling.

I'll certainly check back with what we find.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500815
05/26/18 10:03 PM
05/26/18 10:03 PM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Agree it looks like the anchor plate is missing.
It also looks like two secondary shoes. Primary shoe usually has shorter lining (and originals sometimes a different material). Primary shoe grabs and forces the secondary to engage harder by puxhing on the bottom.
So that's a possibility.

Some illustrations of original spring hookup starting '69 is here:
http://www.imperialclub.org/Repair/Lit/Master/260/Page07.htm
and of course the service manual.

Note the self-adjuster overload springs face outward. At least for '69 - ? Don't think that would cause your problem, but it must effect something or they wouldn't have made a service bulletin...
Detail in the '69 TSB
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/TSBs/1969/D69-5-5%20page_2.jpg

Here's a picture of '69 10"x1.75 rear shoes etc. on my car.
Your springs etc will be a little different...

RR-installed7881.JPG
Last edited by Mattax; 05/26/18 10:10 PM.
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500820
05/26/18 10:24 PM
05/26/18 10:24 PM
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stumpy Offline
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Just for future use brake shoes go on like a mullet short in front long in the back.

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500824
05/26/18 10:33 PM
05/26/18 10:33 PM
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Mattax Offline
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That may be the issue. Two secondary (long lining) shoes.

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500826
05/26/18 10:37 PM
05/26/18 10:37 PM
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Alaskan_TA Offline
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1st photo, both shoes have the pin for the adjuster mount.

Typically, they are rear shoe only.

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: Mattax] #2500874
05/27/18 01:01 AM
05/27/18 01:01 AM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Originally Posted By Mattax
That may be the issue. Two secondary (long lining) shoes.
X2, might be the 2 long shoes causing the problem & they might be slightly off in their dimentions causing the rub (& it might be something else still). Holler how it turns out & too bad you hafta miss the show.


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Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500877
05/27/18 01:08 AM
05/27/18 01:08 AM
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AARCONV Offline
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i concur, 2 secondary shoes and the anchor plate mia

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2500914
05/27/18 07:57 AM
05/27/18 07:57 AM
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Can't believe I missed that...


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Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2501115
05/27/18 10:09 PM
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MarkZ Offline OP
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Yeah, you guys nailed it - I assembled the shoes incorrectly. The box contained two sets of shrinked wrapped shoes and I thought that each one was for a side. I opened the other set and it contained two short shoes. After I fixed the mistake and located a shoe retainer for the top it works as it should. No more roasting wheel.

Thanks guys.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2501201
05/28/18 01:16 AM
05/28/18 01:16 AM
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Nothing like an easy fix. up

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2501829
05/29/18 04:47 PM
05/29/18 04:47 PM
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Well, spoke too soon I guess. Took the car on an a lengthy trip last night when I got home I could smell roasting brakes. It didn't get nearly as hot as it has in the past (before there was smoke), but you could smell it. I'm at a total loss now and the only thing I can think of is the new wheel cylinder at some point is failing to collapse. Before I took it out I had the back end in the air and tested the brakes with the tires free wheeling - everything seemed to be working just fine.

Going to swap out the new wheel cylinder tonight...I'll post back.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2501837
05/29/18 04:52 PM
05/29/18 04:52 PM
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The parking brake cables, and adjustment of them is frequently a source for hanging up trouble back there.

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2503279
06/01/18 06:02 PM
06/01/18 06:02 PM
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I've had the same problem with overheating brakes, see this thread:

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2138777/2.html

Finally, after a long time of adjusting and trying this was the answer:

Finally solved the problem....
Being só sick of all this at trying to adjust the shoes with no result I ordered a new pair of shoes. This time I ordered Wagner brakeshoes. The first ones were from Raybestos.
When they came in, I compared them with the Raybestos shoes. At first sight the were exactly the same but.....when I measured them it seems that the Raybestos were 0.5 MM !! wider than the Wagner.
Anyway, put the shoes on, adjusted them, took a test drive and...No heating up at al. Brakes work perfect now.

Maybe it's worth to look at ?

Re: Drum Brake Help [Re: MarkZ] #2503282
06/01/18 06:10 PM
06/01/18 06:10 PM
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Another thing to check.....

The inner rubber hose walls can fail also, when this happens they can create a one way flapper valve that will let pressure in, but not out.

Get the back of the car safely supported up in the air, put it in neutral.

Pump the brakes hard, hold it, repeat a few times.

See if the rear tires can be spun by hand.







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