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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: hooziewhatsit] #2485031
04/19/18 11:40 AM
04/19/18 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted By hooziewhatsit
$5 for a single pin (#250 in the picture above)?

That's crazy laugh2

Is there a part number for the equivalent to 000-540-36-05 with the heaver gauge wire?


$9.90 plus tax @21% here!

Regards

Davr

Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: lockjaw-express] #2485062
04/19/18 12:51 PM
04/19/18 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted By lockjaw-express
All of connector parts are available from Mouser Electronics...if you have the MFG part numbers really helps, as their inventory is massive.

May have already been brought up.

Mark


Unfortunately, not in this case. I've looked everywhere that I know of.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: Dave 2000] #2485313
04/19/18 10:35 PM
04/19/18 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted By Dave 2000
I cannot see why there would at least three different numbers for what is essentially the same item?



Because Mercedes.



Welcome to my world where some parts have (seriously) 17 or more supersessions. I think the most I've seen is 33 part number changes for one item.



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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2485424
04/20/18 02:31 AM
04/20/18 02:31 AM
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I recognise this problem as a mechanic however, most changes I have seen make some sense. Having said that I notice of late that I am having to purchase pre assembled parts 'modules'.

For example, one day I purchase a wheel bearing, a week later that bearing is no longer available, I have to purchase it all assembled with other conponents.

Bearing carrier, hub complete with wheel studs, ABS tone ring, ABS sensor,.......oh and the bearing!

40 euros becomes 250! I get it that there is just one part number so one parts bin but, my poor customer has to foot the bill.

Sorry rant off and back on topic.

I will hopefully have the parts next week.

Regards

Dave

Last edited by Dave 2000; 04/20/18 02:35 AM.
Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2488712
04/27/18 03:56 PM
04/27/18 03:56 PM
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Well my optimism shot down in flames! The terminals I ordered were in Germany, that is terminals without cable and were ready for me to collect here in Spain.

Today after a one and a half hour round trip, I returned with two pieces of cable with terminals at each end!

Why not ring me they are WRONG!!

The guy behind the counter had seen the plug I had, he knew what terminals I wanted, he knew I did not want to splice the cable.

So, as the terminals marked in stock in Germany were not actually there, he ordered the version with cables (same number?) so I could..........yep, splice them!

He also ordered the crimp on waterproof grommets, this was in case I wanted to prise the new terminals off the new cable, and then refit my own thicker cable!

He also ordered two grommets that go on the thinner wires.......except they are extremely tiny, barely large enough to get a pin through.......but they don't have the cables to match!

Why not ring me.......again!

Honestly, you could not make it up! This is typical Spain! I should be used to it by now.

So, I am going to move the circuit breaker nearer the fan, then use the new cables which incidently are at least twice the cross section of the overheated cable shown earlier, but not as heavy as the OE offering.

The negative cable is not going to reach the battery negative, so it will have to be to vehicle bodywork where the battery connects, should be fine.

For you Dave, the cable that is thicker and had the larger terminal is:

A 000 540 37 05 Quick edit, this is the same number supplied by feets earlier, The number in the parts bin remains but the terminals have wire connected, so the parts guy confusion is to some degree understandable, if he had rang I could have asked him not to ship them over so, is this a Europe thing feets where the number at your end gets you terminals, and here you get cables already crimped in?

It seems there is a multitude of different cables of different capacities to suit different fans?

My head hurts!

Thanks all

Regards

Dave

Last edited by Dave 2000; 04/28/18 02:42 PM.
Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: Dave 2000] #2514875
06/29/18 12:13 PM
06/29/18 12:13 PM
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Hi all, I appreciate this forum is Mopar performance orientated, but felt given the help I have received here it was right to give some feedback on the Mercedes fan modification.

So after a shedload of testing the fan and Dave Brown's controller in the kitchen, this along with my modifications of adding a timer and LED driver circuit, I eventually got the lot installed in my Land Cruiser........and it rocks!


At idle in our present 34°C heat, the fans initial speed is all that is needed to keep the Toyota cast iron 4.2 straight six cool. The fan blade pitch and motor speed even at it's lowest speed is sufficient to pull the temperature down enough to switch off, the engine is completely stock and the fan is not audible when running on slow speed with the bonnet open.

As there is no current test certificate on the car, I decided to do some off road work up some mountainous areas in the campo, these are accessible from where I live without getting caught on the tarmac. One of the hardest jobs for off road and expedition vehicle engines are high climbs with a heavy payload in low gears at very slow speed, and of course the high temperatures.

So during a long slow climb I watched the controller LED change colour from green to barely orange, and that was it. To clarify for those not using Dave's v3 controller, if I switch on the AC, this forces the controller to bring the fan up to 50% speed, and the controller LED to full orange, so I guess my test brought the fan to around 35 to 40% of it's maximum speed? During an even longer hard climb (rocks, troughs and gravel up to around 700 metres), the LED changed between solid green and again just short of full orange as the fan speed fluctuated up and down, as soon as I stopped, the fan came down to solid green, my coolant sensor is in the bottom hose, so responds to the effect of the fan almost immediately, despite the under bonnet heat and idling engine the fan was off in under a minute, and back to slow speed a few minutes later excellent!

Problems noted.

By intentionaly pulling the plug off the coolant sensor, I tripped the controller failsafe which brings the fan to full speed, at full speed there is a vibration/noise from the fan. Because of the commotion of wind noise surrounding one of these fans at full tilt it us difficult to pin point, I think it is more noise than vibration, and as I can see balance weights on the blades and none appear to have moved, it is possible I have either distorted the shroud so the blades are touching the frame, or perhaps distorted something during install?

Further investigation will follow when I have some spare time, no noise or vibration at 50% speed....odd?

The other issue is the 50 amp circuit breaker tripped after around four minutes. During 'kitchen' testing I do not recall seeing more than 47 amps however, this is an old breaker that had never been used, I might just be a little too close to the breaker limit or perhaps I have an 'aged' fan motor? Nothing is getting hot i.e. cables or fan motor so I will order a 60 amp version which should put that to bed.

There will of course be further testing in August when the temperatures will be 40-45°C if not more, if there are any issues or not I will update accordingly.

Thanks again,

Regards

Dave

Last edited by Dave 2000; 06/29/18 12:18 PM.
Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2514880
06/29/18 12:19 PM
06/29/18 12:19 PM
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You generally want to size your breaker so that is normal load is about 80% of the breaker's rated capacity, 60A in this case would have 48A as it's 80% number.


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They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2514913
06/29/18 01:28 PM
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Remember infinity laws. You have a centrifugal fan. Infinity laws apply to centrifugal fans and they say that the flow is the square of the speed and the hp is the cube of the speed. HP = volts x amps. DC motor speed is linear to motor terminal voltage.

So that says that a 5% increase in voltage will increase hp requirement 16% and a 10% increase in voltage will increase hp requirement by 33%. You get the percentage increase in volts back as an amp decrease, so for the 10% increase in voltage, amps goes up approximately 21%.

This is theoretical and real world will vary some but not that much.

Bottom line is that a small increase in voltage increases amps quite a bit, so if your alternator voltage went up the fan was drawing more amps. That would explain your bench test results differential versus in the car results.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: markz528] #2515188
06/30/18 03:10 AM
06/30/18 03:10 AM
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Thanks for the input guys, I guessed I was near the mark with the 50 amp rating, add in the heat of the engine bay and the age of the breaker it was inevitable. It was what I had and it allowed me to get the component positions sorted, and at least start testing, a 60 amp is on order.

I am normally pretty good with dc voltage, but am a little confused as to why a voltage increase would also increase amperage? I get the 'pressure' of voltage but 13.8 was kitchen reading and 14.4 alternator.

I have always considered the reverse for example, a 12v engine coil that has boosted 12v to say 10,000v reduces the amperage right? If not then your going to be in trouble if you get a 10,000v/1000 amp shock, it's the amps that kill right?

Or another example, a 12v starter motor pulls say 150 amps to produce 2.5 kw of power, and a 24v starter uses as near as dammit half the amps to produce the same kw?

I may have missed something here? 8>(

Regards

Dave

Last edited by Dave 2000; 06/30/18 03:59 AM.
Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515217
06/30/18 10:45 AM
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so that is 2 different things.

for an increase in voltage IN THE SAME SYSTEM
you use ohm's law.
I= V/R

As voltage increases with resistance remaning the same, amps increase.

a 24 volt system vs 12 volt system the resistance isn't the same.

it would have to be twice that of a 12 volt system to require half the amps.

they decide on 12 volt vs 24 volts based on watts used amps times voltage.
so if for instance a starter requires 480 watts at 12 volts you would pull 40 amps
but a 24 volt system pulling 480 watts would only need 20 amps.

but the physical starter would be wired differently increasing the resistance.

Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: Andrewh] #2515221
06/30/18 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted By Andrewh
so that is 2 different things.

for an increase in voltage IN THE SAME SYSTEM
you use ohm's law.
I= V/R

As voltage increases with resistance remaining the same, amps increase.

a 24 volt system vs 12 volt system the resistance isn't the same.

it would have to be twice that of a 12 volt system to require half the amps.

they decide on 12 volt vs 24 volts based on watts used amps times voltage.
so if for instance a starter requires 480 watts at 12 volts you would pull 40 amps
but a 24 volt system pulling 480 watts would only need 20 amps.

but the physical starter would be wired differently increasing the resistance.


No, not how it works at all.

Other than getting the formula for current right you got everything else wrong.

In a given system if you double the voltage you halve the current, do the math. You do not double the resistance because you doubled the voltage. The resistance has no need to change if you go from 12 to 24 volts and if you think that just upping the voltage will magically up the resistance you know even less about how electrical circuits work.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515266
06/30/18 01:20 PM
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If it were the same system if you up the voltage you up the current.
math says so.

I=V/R

how can current go down by doubling voltage without changing resistance?

1 = 1/1

2= 2/1

where do you get half the amps?

The only way to get half the amps is if resistance changed.
motors wired for 24 volts are not the same as 12 volts.

I am open to being wrong, but your math doesn't make sense.

I cannot take a 24 volt motor and plug it into 12 volts and have it work. it won't run.

yes I can have a 12 volt motor run on 24 volts, but it will burn out eventually because it wasn't set up to handle that voltage.


I guess I will ask, how do you make the math work then?
what did I miss.
If I change voltage from 12 volts to 24 volts I use less amps to drive the same amount of work.
but how do you get the I=V/R equation to work? If R is constant then when V goes up so must I.
but you are telling me it goes down?

Last edited by Andrewh; 06/30/18 01:31 PM.
Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515293
06/30/18 02:35 PM
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wattage is what I am thinking of, Same wattage at twice the voltage equals half the current.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515297
06/30/18 02:43 PM
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Andrew is mostly correct.

It's true that power = voltage * amps. So, if the voltage goes up, the amperage goes down by the same ratio. Double the voltage, and the amperage is halved, if designed for the same power delivered (in watts).

Assuming a static 10ohm load:
At 12v, this will draw 1.2A, for a power delivered of 14.4w
At 24v, this will draw 2.4A, for a power delivered of 57.6w (!)

If we change the load to 40ohms at 24v, then the amperage goes down to 0.6A, and the power delivered goes to 14.4w, just like the 10ohm@12v circuit. Twice the voltage with half the current, and the same delivered power, but 4 times the resistance. The benefit here is that the wires can be much smaller, since they're carrying less current than at 12v.

A starter designed for 12v will pull twice the current at 24v than it was designed for (and way more power than designed for), and will eventually burn up.

Back to the fan, assuming it is running at one speed and drawing a constant power number, then yes, as the voltage goes up, the amperage should go down.

But, your test was in the kitchen not pulling through a radiator? If the fan has a target rotation speed for each speed value (I'm not sure), it would need more power to meet that if it's now pulling through the radiator/grill in the vehicle.

There's also the ambiguous case where the fan may be trying to go faster at the supplied voltage and current, but can't, until the voltage increases, so it's finally able to speed up and draw more current. In that case more voltage may indeed lead to more current.

Edit: yep, for the same wattage, current halves if volts doubles.

Last edited by hooziewhatsit; 06/30/18 02:44 PM.

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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515299
06/30/18 02:47 PM
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Andrew is exactly right, he was talking about current doubling if voltage doubles and resistance stays the same. I conflated wattage with current in my mind and confused the issue.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515301
06/30/18 02:49 PM
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you posted while I was typing (see my edit above) up


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: Dave 2000] #2515383
06/30/18 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted By Dave 2000


I am normally pretty good with dc voltage, but am a little confused as to why a voltage increase would also increase amperage? I get the 'pressure' of voltage but 13.8 was kitchen reading and 14.4 alternator.


The reason is that in a DC motor speed is proportional to voltage. More voltage then faster speed in a DC motor (with a constant field strength).

As I showed above, the faster the speed the required hp goes up a lot in a fan application.

A lot of folks make the mistake of using ohhm's law when it comes to electric motors. That can really mess them up. Without a complete dissertation, a motor is a torque matching device so it will draw whatever current is required to match the load requirement. An electric starter in a car is a series field DC motor and it does not behave as any other electric motor - trying to understand it using ohms law is fruitless...........

And running a 24 dc motor at 12 volts will run just fine but at half speed and half the rated hp.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: Dave 2000] #2515502
06/30/18 07:53 PM
06/30/18 07:53 PM
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Dave, I'm glad it's working out for you!

It's amazing that this thread still comes up from time to time.

I've been strongly considering dropping one of these fans on the Imperial when it comes back to life.


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Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2515736
07/01/18 04:34 AM
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oops...didn't mean to start an argument.

So, to confirm my whole life thinking, if you double the voltage you halve the amps, I can sleep again. 8>)

I now see the fan is working harder to reach its designated speed for a given voltage due to the resistance of the radiator, this is the additional amp requirement.

I did have pieces of wood under the shroud edges during the kitchen testing to allow air through, this would have skewed my numbers for sure.

So thanks to all for clearing that up,it's interesting that we all (except Dave) have a different take on the sparky stuff and never had it 100% right.

I will see what a 60 amp breaker makes if the load.

Dave you have another email via your website, no rest for the wicked.

'Feets', I agree, yesterday at idle, outside temps were at 32°C, the fan runs at it's first speed and can still shut off, its a great piece of kit.

Thanks all

Regards

Dave

Re: Monster electric cooling fan upgrade. long. w/photos. [Re: feets] #2558578
10/03/18 09:45 PM
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Quote:
000-540-37-05 is your equivalent part number for a 6 mm wire with gasket.


argh, I'm trying to restock with the larger wires, and the couple dealers I've contacted say they're out of stock and can't get them.


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