Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
#2480947
04/11/18 09:43 AM
04/11/18 09:43 AM
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gregsdart
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I stopped buy Chuck Lofgrens shop yesterday for help with a trans. We got to talking about his DragPak FS/D Challenger. His car is spotless, both underneath and everywhere else. Just like his one owner 1970 Sixpak Cuda (!) Chuck put the newly allowed aluminum 6.1 block in the car, and picked up 35 hp. The old block only made 665 hp, the AL motor made 700! Pretty good gain IMHO. Now the problem is it carries the front wheels out to past the 60 clocks! His best et to date is 9.55, and he wound up with a class trophy in F Super Stock, entering in SS because he didn't have enough points to run in FS at the Nationals. Ma Mopar also wants all the DragPack cars at an upcoming event at Route 66 in Joliet, and is paying handsomely to get them there! Nice!
Last edited by gregsdart; 04/11/18 09:45 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481071
04/11/18 01:43 PM
04/11/18 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Al_Alguire
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The NEW aluminum MP block certainly seems to be contributing to a lot of performance gains. Including the first ever 7 second Factory Shootout Pass
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481082
04/11/18 01:57 PM
04/11/18 01:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,627 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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So is it the block or not?
Confused in Peoria
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481088
04/11/18 02:03 PM
04/11/18 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Al_Alguire
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Maybe I did not use enough sarcasm or the right emoji Greg stated that the ONLY change was the block. Also what was credited for the first 7 second pass, the new aluminum block.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2481137
04/11/18 03:21 PM
04/11/18 03:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
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I considered scraping my Keith Black aluminum block because I read on the Internet that I would lose horsepower by using it. I started buying 40 year old stock cast blocks again.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2481140
04/11/18 03:32 PM
04/11/18 03:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
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HotRodDave
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I considered scraping my Keith Black aluminum block because I read on the Internet that I would lose horsepower by using it. I started buying 40 year old stock cast blocks again. Ill pay you 50Cents per pound, I will cover shipping and throw in a case of beer just so you don't have to use that HP sucking device. If you are very prompt about shipping and the block is still useable in my 9 passenger wagon I will throw in a 76 440 6pk max wegee hemi block from a motor home.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481586
04/12/18 12:23 PM
04/12/18 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Al_Alguire
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Wasn't that part of what the "new" KB was going to be working on?
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481705
04/12/18 04:16 PM
04/12/18 04:16 PM
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gregsdart
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I tried what I saw in a video, putting a snap gauge in a vertical cylinder bore of a stock block, so the tension of the gauge was all it was held in there by. I could squeeze the block and make it drop out. If I can do that, you have to wonder how much the blocks twist, flex and distort under severe loads.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481756
04/12/18 05:51 PM
04/12/18 05:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
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CMcAllister
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Hey, that's great for the guys who want to run a FS deal. What's Tony doing for those who don't have the budget to do that or just want to run a traditional S/SS class car?
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: SC304]
#2481795
04/12/18 07:32 PM
04/12/18 07:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada
MattW
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I'm going out on a limb here that the 6.1 block used in that build was the older version. The new version we use in the super charged combo is not available with lifter locations to support a 6.1 cylinder head configuration. Not yet anyway it is in the master plan just further down the list.
Mike That's the picture you gave us in my other post? The lifters are not in the stock location. R U saying production heads won't work? Matt
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2481851
04/12/18 10:09 PM
04/12/18 10:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Spaceman Spiff
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9.55 with 700 horsepower.
i'm guessing the " factory stock" rules are pretty liberal when it come to weight reduction.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2481896
04/12/18 11:13 PM
04/12/18 11:13 PM
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gregsdart
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9.55 with 700 horsepower.
i'm guessing the " factory stock" rules are pretty liberal when it come to weight reduction. Scienced out race car, 3200 lbs shipped. Radial slicks. Wallace calculater says 726 hp, and that is probably based on bias tires and less efficient trans.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2482003
04/13/18 07:49 AM
04/13/18 07:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Spaceman Spiff
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9.55 with 700 horsepower.
i'm guessing the " factory stock" rules are pretty liberal when it come to weight reduction. Scienced out race car, 3200 lbs shipped. Radial slicks. Wallace calculater says 726 hp, and that is probably based on bias tires and less efficient trans. A new challenger that weighs 3200 is far from “ factory stock”. What dealer can a purchase a new 3200lb challenger at?
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2482031
04/13/18 09:56 AM
04/13/18 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada
MattW
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9.55 with 700 horsepower.
i'm guessing the " factory stock" rules are pretty liberal when it come to weight reduction. Scienced out race car, 3200 lbs shipped. Radial slicks. Wallace calculater says 726 hp, and that is probably based on bias tires and less efficient trans. A new challenger that weighs 3200 is far from “ factory stock”. What dealer can a purchase a new 3200lb challenger at? Wow !!! Your not serious? Matt
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2482078
04/13/18 11:42 AM
04/13/18 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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FYI they are RACECARS not streetcars. They are race by racers not your average Joe either. They understand how to get everything out of what they have HP wise, something the average guy is not even close on nor would want to spend the money on. It aint hard to get weight out of cars at all, especially production cars.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2482085
04/13/18 11:53 AM
04/13/18 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 577 Arkansas
Adrielp
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Anybody know how light you can build a challenger before adding a fiberglass body parts(doors, fenders, etc)?
Adriel Paradise Substation Design Engineer III
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: polyspheric]
#2482097
04/13/18 12:17 PM
04/13/18 12:17 PM
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gregsdart
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You need to think in three dimensions i.e. a trussed design Of course, why didn't I think of that? The trick is how to get those very substantial trusses in between the main bearing bulkheads, between the head bolts, between the cylinder sleeves, and inside the main caps.
An aluminum block as stiff as cast iron is impossible. Theory is fine, but a real engine development program ON THAT PARTICULAR ENGINE trumps theory
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2482105
04/13/18 12:33 PM
04/13/18 12:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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Let me guess: "you delete your posts because you know you're wrong!"
So funny!
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2483284
04/15/18 09:12 PM
04/15/18 09:12 PM
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gregsdart
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I get such a charge out of people that can't accept the posibilty that what i wrote about has been done. I used to think that way sometimes, 45 years ago.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2483544
04/16/18 12:24 PM
04/16/18 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Al_Alguire
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Come now Greg, we all know theory is way more important than practical application. Some people cling to old theories and ways of thinking. It is one of the largest factors that to this day still holds back Mopar guys.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2483589
04/16/18 01:54 PM
04/16/18 01:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
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justinp61
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Come now Greg, we all know theory is way more important than practical application. Some people cling to old theories and ways of thinking. It is one of the largest factors that to this day still holds back Mopar guys. No truer words have ever been posted on Moparts. As a whole we are our own worst enemy.
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2483708
04/16/18 04:52 PM
04/16/18 04:52 PM
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gregsdart
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My hero, Bob Glidden, said in an intervue, "We are all idiots, the guy that trys the most stuff wins" Bob averaged 95 hours a week trying things to go faster, from what i heard. I am betting he most always thought outside the box.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2483726
04/16/18 05:16 PM
04/16/18 05:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,360 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Most TRUE innovation in the world comes from trial and error....
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2483869
04/16/18 09:45 PM
04/16/18 09:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
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polyspheric
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Of course. Where do I apply to have the laws of physics, properties of metals, inertia, heat transfer, etc. suspended for my project? Because my own ideas are better...
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: polyspheric]
#2483960
04/16/18 11:51 PM
04/16/18 11:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
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justinp61
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Of course. Where do I apply to have the laws of physics, properties of metals, inertia, heat transfer, etc. suspended for my project? Because my own ideas are better... So, what exactly are you building?
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: justinp61]
#2483963
04/16/18 11:58 PM
04/16/18 11:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
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Of course. Where do I apply to have the laws of physics, properties of metals, inertia, heat transfer, etc. suspended for my project? Because my own ideas are better... So, what exactly are you building? Man that's what I was thinking. What is it going in and are you going to "race it"
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2484060
04/17/18 08:43 AM
04/17/18 08:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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Some people cling to old theories and ways of thinking. It is one of the largest factors that to this day still holds back Mopar guys. It's hard to think outside the box when the head stuck inside the box is located deep inside an anal cavity.
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2484161
04/17/18 12:35 PM
04/17/18 12:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
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polyspheric
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"Old theory": quench, developed and patented by Harry Ricardo before WWI. But we know better now...
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2488036
04/26/18 12:14 AM
04/26/18 12:14 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
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polyspheric
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"You are beginning to sound like a first semester engineering student!" How odd - that's what people said about me... when I was 12.
Did you notice that you disagreed with something I didn't say? No?
I'd love to explain, really. But the most adamant of my critics has demonstrated his lack of comprehension of the subject, so I'll just let you all believe whatever you want. M'kay?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: polyspheric]
#2488124
04/26/18 09:26 AM
04/26/18 09:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
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"You are beginning to sound like a first semester engineering student!" How odd - that's what people said about me... when I was 12.
Did you notice that you disagreed with something I didn't say? No?
I'd love to explain, really. But the most adamant of my critics has demonstrated his lack of comprehension of the subject, so I'll just let you all believe whatever you want. M'kay? I'm not trying to be a Male sexual reproductive organ here But on your http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/m-table-c.htm#SBCSome of the 6.4 hemi data is wrong, bore is 4.09 and stroke is 3.724 ,Deck is 9.28 not(B) 4.055(S) 3.795 (DH) 9.25 Thank you for posting all the information on that list it has be very helpful
Last edited by ric3xrt; 04/26/18 09:29 AM.
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2488163
04/26/18 11:00 AM
04/26/18 11:00 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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That would make .0000000000000000000000001% of my free information, yes?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: gregsdart]
#2488200
04/26/18 12:25 PM
04/26/18 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,400 Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt
pro stock
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pro stock
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I apologize if it comes off as I'm attacking, that's not my intent.
Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth. Some of us are so open minded they only see their View
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Re: Gen III AL block, big power gain! Ma Mopar paying racers!
[Re: ric3xrt]
#2488252
04/26/18 01:52 PM
04/26/18 01:52 PM
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dogdays
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I Live Here
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In this writeup I am comparing aluminum with gray cast iron, common material of engine blocks.
Getting back to science, the problem comes from the relative spring rates (moduli of elasticity) of the metals involved. In relative terms, aluminum is a 10, gray cast iron is a 20, and nodular iron and compacted graphite iron are 30. So it is easy to see that using aluminum would give some problems with stiffness.
HOWEVER, another factor jumps in here and that is how stress applies to bending. We call it different things, but flexing or bending is a way that power is lost in an engine block. Stress is what produces strain, or motion. Stress in a beam in bending is proportional to the moment (bending force) and proportional to the distance from the neutral axis. It is inversely proportional to the moment of inertia. Moment of inertia almost always involves a dimension to the fourth power. So if, for example, you have a main bearing web 1" thick, and you increase it to 2" thick. the distance from the neutral axis increases by factor of two, while moment of inertia increases by factor of 16, 2 to the 4th power (2x2x2x2). You have a 2 in the numerator and 4 2s in the denominator so the increase in resistance to bending is actually increased by a factor of 8, 2 to the 3rd power, or 2x2x2.
If you followed me this far and think it through, it means that to increase the thickness of a beam to compensate for the aluminum extra springiness, you don't have to increase the dimension by 2, you have to increase it by factor of cube root of 2, which is 1.26. So your 1" thick main bearing bulkhead is now 1.26" thick and equally as stiff, and if you want to make it stiffer it doesn't have to be much thicker. Another 0.24" and it is now 1.69 times as stiff as the 1" cast iron.
This only applies in bending, not in straight tensile or compressive stresses. But bending or flexing adds friction and reduces ring seal so it is more important.
R.
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