What went wrong?
#2469889
03/21/18 07:09 PM
03/21/18 07:09 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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I had built a 505 stroker. here is the list of parts: 440 bored .30 505 stroker kit from Ohio Crankshaft 84cc Edelbrock heads with stock rocker arms Edelbrock Torker 2 intake Holley 850 carb HYDRAULIC − Serious street and bracket race cam. 10:1 compression, lower gears, headers and 3500+ stall. Hyd. Hyd. 3000 to 6500 21-229-428 Single-Bolt XE295HL 295 307 251 257.564.564 110° Dougs 3" headers
Took it to the dyno and it only put out 231 hp and 286 torque. I lost probably about half the horse power somewhere.
Last edited by Shatar4; 03/21/18 07:27 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2469913
03/21/18 07:29 PM
03/21/18 07:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
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Are those rear wheel HP and TQ numbers?
Last edited by Mopar_Rich; 03/21/18 07:30 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#2469932
03/21/18 07:52 PM
03/21/18 07:52 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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Are those rear wheel HP and TQ numbers? Rear wheel
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: merpar]
#2469952
03/21/18 08:07 PM
03/21/18 08:07 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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Shatar4
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Stock rocker arms? Is that meaning stamped steel? If so get rid of them and get some adjustable's. That's a pretty decent hyd cam should make over 600 hp easily. Degree the cam? Break in the cam with proper lube? Yes,stamped steel rockers. Broke the motor in with Joe Gibbs oil. We did degree the cam. Hot rod magizine built a 573 hp and used stamped steel rockers so I doubt that would make me lose that much hp and tq. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1412-how-you-can-build-a-stout-537hp-street-440/
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: AndyF]
#2469971
03/21/18 08:26 PM
03/21/18 08:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
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I hate the intake for that combo, I hate the convertor choice for that combo, did you check for total timing in the 32-36 range for a start. Did you check for proper preload on those non adjustable rockers.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: AndyF]
#2469974
03/21/18 08:29 PM
03/21/18 08:29 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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I don't see any problems with that parts list so I'm guessing the tune is way off. Do the standard checks and see what you find.
Spark plug wires connected? Plug wires in the correct order? Compression check? Look at plugs, look at ports, etc. Vacuum leaks? Air Fuel ratio? Ignition timing? etc. They did change the plugs and upped the jets to 88 and 90. They reset the timing to 34 degrees. I have the dyno sheet at home and I’ll post it when I get there. It’s a very well Mopar place in Michigan that ran it on the Dyno and he can’t figure it out. Very disappointing
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Porter67]
#2469984
03/21/18 08:46 PM
03/21/18 08:46 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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Wondering what you used for push rods and lifter preload?
Do ya got a vid of this dyno session or of the car running, id think it probably dont sound well when running either. I do have a video but have no idea how to post it here
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2469987
03/21/18 08:59 PM
03/21/18 08:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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I had it dyno’d at Jake’s. He’s a Mopar guy so I don’t think it’s the dyno I had my car checked at Jakes also... did you ask him what might be your issue(if he throught there was)
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2469992
03/21/18 09:05 PM
03/21/18 09:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,526 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Something going on besides the jetting or the timing being off a few numbers. Compression test, leak it, get the timing cover off and check the cam timing. Cut the oil filter apart and check it. Exhaust blocked. Transmission OK. Has to run and sound bad when it's being driven.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2470005
03/21/18 09:29 PM
03/21/18 09:29 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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Shatar4
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I had it dyno’d at Jake’s. He’s a Mopar guy so I don’t think it’s the dyno I had my car checked at Jakes also... did you ask him what might be your issue(if he throught there was) I did and he had no idea. He was going to ask his buddy at Modern to see if he had anything and get back with me. I believe I'm going to pull the motor and dissect it and maybe something will show up.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2470006
03/21/18 09:31 PM
03/21/18 09:31 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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Something going on besides the jetting or the timing being off a few numbers. Compression test, leak it, get the timing cover off and check the cam timing. Cut the oil filter apart and check it. Exhaust blocked. Transmission OK. Has to run and sound bad when it's being driven. Did all that. Did the compession check and leak down and everything looked great. Trans is good. I just dont know. I sank and boat load of money in this thing and my Ford Focus has more power!
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470010
03/21/18 09:41 PM
03/21/18 09:41 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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Wondering what you used for push rods and lifter preload?
Do ya got a vid of this dyno session or of the car running, id think it probably dont sound well when running either. I do have a video but have no idea how to post it here https://youtu.be/0TVC1dn6SwI
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470014
03/21/18 09:47 PM
03/21/18 09:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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I really think your cam timing is retarted.. check the crank zero mark first.. I wouldnt pull the engine yet.. pull the timing cover and check the cam timing again
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2470019
03/21/18 09:50 PM
03/21/18 09:50 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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Shatar4
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I really think your cam timing is retarted.. check the crank zero mark first.. I wouldnt pull the engine yet.. pull the timing cover and check the cam timing again Would that make me lose half the hp? I was thinking cam lobe's or something. To lose that much hp, it has to be affecting all the cylinders.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470025
03/21/18 09:53 PM
03/21/18 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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I really think your cam timing is retarted.. check the crank zero mark first.. I wouldnt pull the engine yet.. pull the timing cover and check the cam timing again Would that make me lose half the hp? I was thinking cam lobe's or something. To lose that much hp, it has to be affecting all the cylinders. A retarted cam will act just like that.. I check the cam 3-4 times when I put them in and it'll be slow reving
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2470038
03/21/18 10:04 PM
03/21/18 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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I really think your cam timing is retarted.. check the crank zero mark first.. I wouldnt pull the engine yet.. pull the timing cover and check the cam timing again Would that make me lose half the hp? I was thinking cam lobe's or something. To lose that much hp, it has to be affecting all the cylinders. A retarted cam will act just like that.. I check the cam 3-4 times when I put them in and it'll be slow reving i have to agree with Mike, sounds like its laboring untill it get's up so then it liven's up after that.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2470080
03/21/18 10:50 PM
03/21/18 10:50 PM
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There is a lot of ups and downs in the pulls There was then he changed the primary jets and it cleaned it up. The last sheet is after the jet change. Was at Jakes for 5 hrs trying to figure this out.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470256
03/22/18 10:16 AM
03/22/18 10:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,354 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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Nothing wrong w/ the parts list IMO. Definitely something stupid holding it back. The lifters could be an issue, but there's no reason a hydraulic shouldn't pull to 6k+ rpm. Might need different lifters if those are bleeding down. A solid roller would be my choice too, but the hydraulic you have should work.
Check things like where the cam is in at, verify the TDC mark on the balancer is where it should be, verify you don't have lobes going flat, etc.
FWIW...my old stock stroke 440, 10:1, basically stock 906 heads w/ the 509/292 purpleshaft (w/ stock stamped rockers and stock pushrods) made 340 hp on the chassis dyno and ran 11.80s at 112 mph at 3700 lbs.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: moparpoolman]
#2470297
03/22/18 11:53 AM
03/22/18 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
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MR_P_BODY
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Master
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It can very well be the springs.. when I dynoed my engine it had about 6 weak springs.. I changed them and got my power and rpms back... and I checked a few before I put the engine together.. but the ones I checked were OK
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: lewtot184]
#2470327
03/22/18 12:40 PM
03/22/18 12:40 PM
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madscientist
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loose torque converters (especially with hi-torque engines) and chassis dynos aren't always a good mix. stock rockers can give too much preload on the tappets and I don't think those edelbrock springs are up to snuff for that cam. you probably have a coupe of, if not more, issues to look at. His converter isn't too loose. If anything it's too tight. I just watched a video of monza from street outlaws with his car on a wheel dyno. You can hear it go up on the converter. High torque and chassis dynos are done all the time. It's not the dynos fault.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470416
03/22/18 03:00 PM
03/22/18 03:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 427 Sweden
Mopar Guy
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mopar
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Are you shore that you have the cam were it is surpose to be.... it must be of ! A classic mistake is to degree it on the ext lobe ! Just my 2 cent if the cam is made corekt and i hope you sort it out.
Last edited by Mopar Guy; 03/22/18 03:04 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Mopar Guy]
#2470438
03/22/18 03:40 PM
03/22/18 03:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,644 North Carolina
sasquatch
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That graph/chart shows what valve float looks like on the dyno. IF you are using the Edelbrock springs they are NOT suited to that camshaft. The Comp XE grinds are really aggressive and need a pretty serious spring. I know, I know that they are supposed to be good for 600 lift. Horse puckey. I have a 5 gallon bucket full of them that we only use on really mild stuff (like 480 and under lift). That cam is 564 lift. I would use a Comp 925 with the right retainers and locks. Not a huge fan of the super big hyd cams either for this and other reasons. I would also advise against a cam like this as a single bolt cam either. Comp will grind the same (or any) single bolt cam as a 3 bolt (you just have to order it like that). Hey the Hemi and factory six pack motors are three bolts for a reason. Now please send all the "i have ran single bolts and edelbrock springs for years" posts to someone else. Also of note is what part number lifter are you using? 822-16 or 867-16? It matters. Also stock rockers on this cam profile will most likely lead to pushrods being pushed through the sockets in the rockers in the not so distant future. Pull the valve covers and have a looky loo. Pop one or two springs off and look at the bottom of the retainers and the locks. Are they shiny? Are the locks already showing wear? The eddies do not use a great lock. Upgrade to some 10 degree stuff if you change the springs. Todd
Last edited by sasquatch; 03/22/18 03:44 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: sasquatch]
#2470562
03/22/18 06:49 PM
03/22/18 06:49 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
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That graph/chart shows what valve float looks like on the dyno. IF you are using the Edelbrock springs they are NOT suited to that camshaft. The Comp XE grinds are really aggressive and need a pretty serious spring. I know, I know that they are supposed to be good for 600 lift. Horse puckey. I have a 5 gallon bucket full of them that we only use on really mild stuff (like 480 and under lift). That cam is 564 lift. I would use a Comp 925 with the right retainers and locks. Not a huge fan of the super big hyd cams either for this and other reasons. I would also advise against a cam like this as a single bolt cam either. Comp will grind the same (or any) single bolt cam as a 3 bolt (you just have to order it like that). Hey the Hemi and factory six pack motors are three bolts for a reason. Now please send all the "i have ran single bolts and edelbrock springs for years" posts to someone else. Also of note is what part number lifter are you using? 822-16 or 867-16? It matters. Also stock rockers on this cam profile will most likely lead to pushrods being pushed through the sockets in the rockers in the not so distant future. Pull the valve covers and have a looky loo. Pop one or two springs off and look at the bottom of the retainers and the locks. Are they shiny? Are the locks already showing wear? The eddies do not use a great lock. Upgrade to some 10 degree stuff if you change the springs. Todd I had pulled the motor today just to dissect to find the problem. I’m going to send the heads out to have the springs and valves checked. While it’s out I believe I’m going to change the cam to a solid. Any recommendations on a cam? It’s just disheartening to have high expectations from this motor and my wife’s car has more power than mine.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470644
03/22/18 08:22 PM
03/22/18 08:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635 Oakland, MI
dizuster
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Honestly there is nothing the matter with the cam you have... if anything it probably needs more valve spring, but it will make power just fine.
Double check everything, including the rocker to spring clearance, and rocker pattern.
On the dyno you looked at o2, so fuel starvation is out because it would show up going lean. You double checked the timing (although the balancer could be way off), so sort of ruled that out. It could have weak springs on it, but even if they are weak, I would have expected it to run clean a lot higher RPM then it did (but you'll double check that now).
Honestly though... That being said, if the motor sounded like it ran good (no ticking or anything crazy), I wouldn't be surprised if the coil was junk (new or not).
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470673
03/22/18 09:07 PM
03/22/18 09:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I had pulled the motor today just to dissect to find the problem. I’m going to send the heads out to have the springs and valves checked. While it’s out I believe I’m going to change the cam to a solid. Any recommendations on a cam? It’s just disheartening to have high expectations from this motor and my wife’s car has more power than mine. Are you going to do all the checking you can on this motor now? If so please recheck the cam timing to make sure EXACTLY where the intake lobe center is I've used the same Comp Cams grind in more than one pump gas street motor, stock stroke and 4.25 stroke motors, all of them did good on the engine dyno and in the car I do use adjustable rocker arms also on any of my halfway serious motor, especially on hydraulic lifter motors to get the lifter preload correct I set the heads up with between 140 to 165 Lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 360 Lbs. open pressures I use to know John Deanna(SP?), Hot Rod, Car Craft, Motor trend writer and publisher a long time ago, and buy parts from him. I have seen many articles written buy other writers at Pertersen Publishing in those magazines that where dead wrong on a lot of the details and parts use on cars they did articles on some of my friends race cars Same thing on technical build articles that some of shops fed them bad info to test how smart the writers where My message is do NOT believe every thing you see in print or pictures Please let us know what you find on this problem, YOU can find it
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/22/18 09:08 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: moparpoolman]
#2470816
03/23/18 03:18 AM
03/23/18 03:18 AM
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Joined: May 2004
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you never answered if you were using the springs that came with the heads? Sounds like you're doing way to much when you could of taken off all the valve springs and had them checked while the engine was together and still in the car. Sounds too late though but if you haven't taken the engine apart yet, that's what I would do. Yes, I did not change the springs. From box to motor. I took it out because I want to check everything and it’s a lot easier when it’s out. Besides I can put it on an engine dyno and check it when it’s all together.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470852
03/23/18 09:52 AM
03/23/18 09:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi.
JAKE68
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Everyone is giving great recommendations here. That being said let me give my take on this. None of the parts are realy wrong but maybe just not right for combo. Maybe some not my choice but should have still made way more power than it did. when the veh was brought in it was brought in mostly because he was having a spark knock issue so the first things checked was plugs and timing. found there was the wrong plugs in it. It had short reach j style plug when it needs long reach n style so plugs where changed timing was locked out at 34. Doing low speed runs found the carb was very lean so a jet change was made. Full pulls where found to be lean but not in the danger zone. Still my thoughts thou where the tuning was not going to make up for that much lose in power. Tried to add some jet and it went crazy and didnt like that at all. My thoughts are I would have done adjustable rockers and different springs. I have never had much faith in those springs that come with those heads. Also it seam like lifter preload may have been to tight without knowing what the adjustment really was when assembled with the none adjustable rockers. Also if cam was not degreed in just the power band would just been off not that much of a loss unless it was way off,but he said it was dot to dot. watching the graff the converter was going to about 3700 rpm so that wasn't way out. now that the motor is out I would get the heads set up get the rockers. Not a big fan on spending the money on new cam that cam is fine. On another note car was done very nice and the customer and his son and friend that where there where great to talk to
Last edited by JAKE68; 03/23/18 10:02 AM.
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2470877
03/23/18 11:11 AM
03/23/18 11:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
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sr4440
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Was the exhaust open or closed? Did you check for excess back pressure? I had a muffler come apart once and partially blocked the exhaust. that car couldn't get out of it's own way.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2470968
03/23/18 02:46 PM
03/23/18 02:46 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,964 Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
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I am putting one of those kit together right now. They used a 1.865 ch piston, and a 6.700 rod. I had to take .040 off the block to get to 0 deck. If you are .040 in the hole and have 80+ cc heads your compression could be way off. What was the parts used in your kit? What was your assembled c.h.? Example 10 cc for the deck vol. 8 cc for the pockets 10 cc for the gasket and 84cc for the heads =112cc at tdc. 1035cc swept vol. 1147/112 = 10.24cr. ok still seems down on power. What is the intake close at .050. Could way down on dynamic compression. Using advertised cam timing event your dynamic c.r. could be as low as 6.4 to 1 with excess lifter preload on a hydraulic would make it worse. mabe start with reducing preload to almost 0.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: sasquatch]
#2471084
03/23/18 07:42 PM
03/23/18 07:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
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Ok Red flag to check. You cannot degree a cam by going dot to dot on the timing chain. It could be anywhere. You need a degree wheel and find true TDC. Just going off what I read here. Bingo
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#2471432
03/24/18 06:17 PM
03/24/18 06:17 PM
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RoadRunnerLuva
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There is something crazy wrong here! It seems everyone has given some good insights. It could be a combination of probs, but I am going with the cam timing is off or the lifters are being crushed by too much preload {just a simple shimming of the rocker shafts would fix this} with this statement, double check cam with degree wheel....also nice Challenger BTW...hope you can straighten this out, good luck!
Plymouth Makes It!
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: B G Racing]
#2548333
09/10/18 12:25 PM
09/10/18 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976 Chilliwack B.C. Canada
RUNCHARGER
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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It sounds like he tried to go dot to dot the first time, missed that and cost you some bent valves. Then he really put in the effort and got it dot to dot on the second go? Please. before bolting the heads on find out what the measured centerline is. Your guy probably can't do it. Find someone who can. Oops too late, well I guess it's running anyway.
Last edited by RUNCHARGER; 09/10/18 12:26 PM.
Sheldon
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548354
09/10/18 01:14 PM
09/10/18 01:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi.
JAKE68
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
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Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.
Give me a call and I will see what I can do to get you in earlier Jake
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: dvw]
#2548361
09/10/18 01:23 PM
09/10/18 01:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158
PA.
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Some of these "so called" engine builders scare the CRAP out of me.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548368
09/10/18 01:35 PM
09/10/18 01:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
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A few lessons learned. There are parts guys that do more than just sell parts Cams MUST be degreed with a wheel and dial indicator. Even good engine builders can make a mistake,they ARE human.I hope he stepped up and took car of the expense you had to endure! Cams and springs really need to be "matched" and checked for accuracy! The right combo of cam & spring can make a huge difference
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548378
09/10/18 01:52 PM
09/10/18 01:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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What's the A:F just after the torque drop-off?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2548382
09/10/18 02:02 PM
09/10/18 02:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,123
Bend,OR USA
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Some of these "so called" engine builders scare the CRAP out of me. Me too The first solid roller cam I bought and installed in a customers 1958 392 (300 motor originally with dual AFB quads and adjustable rocker arms ) stock hemi boat motor in a 18 ft. flat bottom Stevens V drive. It had a solid lifter cam in it before and would rev a little over 6000 RPM in gear on the water according to the customer, not so with the new Sig Erson solid roller race boat camshaft It wouldn't rev past 3000 RPM with that new cam install straight up dot to dot in the water in gear It revved like crazy in the boat out of the water I had my wife take that cam back to Sig Erson three times to have them check it, they swore up and down it was okay I had to wait 5 weeks for them to grind that cam as it was not a standard shelf cam they stock at their factory back then in 1971 They where not real helpful on solving the problem as long as I dealt with Sig Erson younger brother Babe Erson I had that motor in and out of the boat fives times and apart before finding out that the cam had been ground 10 degrees retarded I learned that from one of their older techs on the next to the last call to them when he taught me how to degree the cam on the lobe centers, it was a real eye opener They swore it wasn't their special ground expensive brand new cam shaft, it had to be the timing set or the crankshaft key way being ground in the wrong location and so on and on. They ended up giving me a set of offset cam and crankshaft keyways to get it installed where the lobe centers should have been instead of replacing it with another new one ground properly It was off on the cam card on the lobes a little bit, 2 to 5 degrees at .020 checking it on both intake and exhaust lobes so that should have been a good indicator it was ground wrong from day one to me That was my first experience with a solid roller cam and my last time I bought any Sig Erson products I have learned since then most problems with engines or with other things, end up helping me become better
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/10/18 02:05 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548450
09/10/18 04:44 PM
09/10/18 04:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 874 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 874
Missouri
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I agree with what several said, its a cam timing issue. I would do a cranking compression test and then a running compression test. You should have 160 to 180 lbs of compression at least, and then the running compression test should go to 80% of the cranking when you blip the throttle. If those numbers are low your cam is off. A quick way to tell is rotate the engine to the overlap at TDC, look at the valves one is opening and one is closing, if both vales are the same height your cam is in heads up, if intake is down its advanced, if exhaust is down its retarded. One bad things about a chassis dyno is lack of instrumentation, an engine dyno with exhaust temp sensors, fuel flow, pressure, etc. would really help diagnose the issue. Their is nothing really wrong with your parts, its something with how they were assembled.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548495
09/10/18 06:50 PM
09/10/18 06:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853
Pattison Texas
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Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. Set the heads off to be checked and replaced the lifters with roller rockers. I put the motor back in and its like night and day. Huge difference! Now i just have to get it back on the dyno to see the differemce. Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.
He found the problem !!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548503
09/10/18 07:03 PM
09/10/18 07:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581 N/E, Michigan
RATTRAP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,581
N/E, Michigan
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Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.
You an try Full Throttle racing In Fraser,MI they have a chassis dyno.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548511
09/10/18 07:24 PM
09/10/18 07:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669
Wichita
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Jeez, what a stupid mistake! I've seen combos that don't run like they should and people always blame the cam. I always ask if they degreed it and 9 times out of 10 they say, "I made sure and lined up the dots!".
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: GY3]
#2548515
09/10/18 08:03 PM
09/10/18 08:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,158
PA.
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For you guys that struggle with degreeing in cams buy yourself this tool. It sure make the job a lot easier. https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/cca-4926
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: RATTRAP]
#2548518
09/10/18 08:35 PM
09/10/18 08:35 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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Anyone know of one that is around the Detriot area? Called Jakes this morning and they were 3-4 weeks out.
You an try Full Throttle racing In Fraser,MI they have a chassis dyno. Got it covered! Jake was awesome and fit me in sooner! 👍
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2548572
09/10/18 11:19 PM
09/10/18 11:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495 Shelby mi.
JAKE68
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
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I got him coming in Thursday.
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2549718
09/13/18 06:49 PM
09/13/18 06:49 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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Just got home from the dyno at Jakes. First I have to say Gary at Jakes is awesome fortaking care of me. So now the numbers. For a Stroker motor that has only parts from out of the box I think it’s pretty good adding in the power train lose. 414 hp and 429 torque.
Last edited by Shatar4; 09/13/18 07:28 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2549754
09/13/18 09:05 PM
09/13/18 09:05 PM
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Superfreak
Unregistered
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Superfreak
Unregistered
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: davenc]
#2549809
09/13/18 11:58 PM
09/13/18 11:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566 Texas
RustyM
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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Agree with Dave. Was that with an air cleaner on it?
I cannot remember if this is a carb or efi? Wondering if valve train is getting unstable at 5k and above as well. Certainly seems really lean to me.
Last edited by RustyM; 09/14/18 12:01 AM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2549853
09/14/18 04:25 AM
09/14/18 04:25 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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That tool is nice for checking cam centerline. I have seen it mis-used trying to set/measure opening and closing events or duration. The results will be slightly off because the follower diameter of the tool is smaller (0.841" is what mine measured) than a real MOPAR lifter (0.904".) I don't know the radius used for the rounded follower used for roller cams? If I want to measure duration or opening and closing events, I use the actual lifter the engine will be using as the roller cam lifters may have different diameter rollers.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2549917
09/14/18 11:53 AM
09/14/18 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. So, two things that I would consider pretty much “mandatory” for a build like this obviously didn’t get done. Cam didn’t get degreed, and valve to piston clearance not verified. I dynoed a very mild 505 last fall that was similar, but milder. Stage 1 rpm heads, .483 lift hyd cam, original Torker, 850vs carb, 1-7/8” headers. I told him it would make about 600ft/lbs and 500hp. It made 628tq/515hp. With an RPM intake and the OP’s cam I would have been looking for another 40-50hp. Back in about 1990, on a 500hp 440 I tested an original Torker against a Torker II. The Torker II had noticeably better top end power than the original Torker, which resulted in a peak gain of about 15hp, but at the top of the run it was more like a 30hp difference. The original Torker had better bottom end and made about 15ft/lbs more peak tq.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: RustyM]
#2550046
09/14/18 06:01 PM
09/14/18 06:01 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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Agree with Dave. Was that with an air cleaner on it?
I cannot remember if this is a carb or efi? Wondering if valve train is getting unstable at 5k and above as well. Certainly seems really lean to me.
The air cleaner was not on it. It is a 850 carb.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2550049
09/14/18 06:08 PM
09/14/18 06:08 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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Well after i took the motor back out and gave it to the engine builder, he found that he acidently put the timing off by one tooth. I took the heads off and the valves were kissing the pistons leaving a half moon mark on them. So, two things that I would consider pretty much “mandatory” for a build like this obviously didn’t get done. Cam didn’t get degreed, and valve to piston clearance not verified. I dynoed a very mild 505 last fall that was similar, but milder. Stage 1 rpm heads, .483 lift hyd cam, original Torker, 850vs carb, 1-7/8” headers. I told him it would make about 600ft/lbs and 500hp. It made 628tq/515hp. With an RPM intake and the OP’s cam I would have been looking for another 40-50hp. Back in about 1990, on a 500hp 440 I tested an original Torker against a Torker II. The Torker II had noticeably better top end power than the original Torker, which resulted in a peak gain of about 15hp, but at the top of the run it was more like a 30hp difference. The original Torker had better bottom end and made about 15ft/lbs more peak tq. So do you think if I change the intake to a Edelbrock RPM I would gain some?
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2550057
09/14/18 06:35 PM
09/14/18 06:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
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“Some”? Sure...... but mostly in the lower part of the curve is what I’d expect.
Peak hp would likely be within 10.
Way more work involved, but I’d expect better results out of some head porting instead.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: Shatar4]
#2550142
09/14/18 11:34 PM
09/14/18 11:34 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 598 NC, USA
davenc
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 598
NC, USA
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So do you think if I change the intake to a Edelbrock RPM I would gain some?
If the dyno operator has confidence in the AFR values posted in that dyno chart, you should be able to pick up some decent power jetting up on the carb. It looks pretty lean on those runs. The timing might also be more optimized once the AFR was richer.
Last edited by davenc; 09/14/18 11:34 PM.
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Re: What went wrong?
[Re: davenc]
#2550529
09/16/18 03:40 AM
09/16/18 03:40 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038 Howell, Mi
Shatar4
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,038
Howell, Mi
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So do you think if I change the intake to a Edelbrock RPM I would gain some?
If the dyno operator has confidence in the AFR values posted in that dyno chart, you should be able to pick up some decent power jetting up on the carb. It looks pretty lean on those runs. The timing might also be more optimized once the AFR was richer. The jets at 80 primary 88 secondary.
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