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#2463441 - 03/08/18 08:51 PM holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 13185
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
long story short, taking my 8082 2 circuit dommy back apart from when it was switched over to E-85 in a futile attempt to run corn squeezin"s and back to 110 octane racing fuel,, I aquired a set of billet metering blocks but not sure what size emulsion jets I need and in how many ports, the blocks have 4 emulsion ports and one has a plug and the rest have none, per side,,I have no Idea where to start for size and placemen as I under stand the emultions set the fuel curve thru out the rpm curve and I definately don't want to be too lean, this is for a drag car only, 512 cubes 12.3 compression, 690 lift cam, 272 duration@50.
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#2463475 - 03/08/18 09:39 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
mopar dave Offline
master

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 5906
Loc: flint michigan
Yur gonna want to ask Dom, but i can tell you i use .028 emultions on my 1100 pump gas 511. I have 3 emultions with the center plugged. Youll need to pin gauge what you have.

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#2463515 - 03/08/18 10:39 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
krautrock Online   content
top fuel

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 1790
Loc: central texas
i think emulsion package sets the fuel curve early on when the boosters come in, after you get further into the fuel curve it's the high speed bleed that takes control.

get advice from dom. more emulsion isn't always better.

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#2463563 - 03/09/18 12:27 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: krautrock]
mopar dave Offline
master

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 5906
Loc: flint michigan
In my situation i started with .026 and after tuning every circuit the carb was still going fat on top, so per Doms recommendation i went to .028's and it leaned out that top end fat spot. Dom is the guy you need to see for the best carb advise.

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#2463565 - 03/09/18 12:30 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24956
Loc: Oregon
I don't think I've ever talked to anyone who understands emulsion jetting. Everyone just guesses at it. Nobody seems to know why Holley switched from 2 emulsion jets to 4 or 5. Maybe Braswell understands emulsion. At least he claims to but he never explains it so even he might not know.

Having said that, if you copy an old 850 DP you should be fine. Put an 028 in the top hole, blank in second, 028 in third and blank in the bottom. That should work well enough to get you going. You can play around with it if you want but I doubt you'll tell any difference. I've tried a bunch of different emulsion combinations over the years and never really noticed any difference.

If you really want to talk about emulsion jets then Tuner is probably the one guy on the internet who knows his stuff.

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#2463594 - 03/09/18 06:49 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
sgcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 4070
Loc: Charlotte, North Carolina
If the metering blocks were designed as E85 specific, you might need some other changes, too. There is a lot more to metering blocks than just emulsion. Check with Dom.
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#2463600 - 03/09/18 07:14 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: sgcuda]
Leigh Online   content
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5698
Loc: Anoka County, MN
Pretty sure he's got gas replacement metering blocks to change back.

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#2463609 - 03/09/18 07:48 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
Mattax Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1201
Loc: Phila. Pa.

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#2463646 - 03/09/18 09:03 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Mattax]
mopar dave Offline
master

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 5906
Loc: flint michigan
Very informative. Thanks for the linc. Also, you will need a wide band while tuning those emultions.

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#2463720 - 03/09/18 11:06 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 14244
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By dartman366
... I aquired a set of billet metering blocks... have 4 emulsion ports and one has a plug and the rest have none, per side...

Sounds like QFT/Proform 4-emulsion blocks (same thing except the anodized color). As an FYI, I've cut-n-pasted something about those blocks that I posted recently on another forum:

"I've had 2 sets of the QFT/Proform 4-emulsion billet blocks and their emulsion orifice sizing has been all over the place. The specs I found indicated the as-drilled e-holes are supposed to be .028", and they say to open up the pre-drilled hole to about .050" if you're going to convert to screw-in jets.

The first set ranged from .024" to .028", so I equalized them all to .028". The second set was just under .027" on one block and just over .029" on the other. For that set I simply opened the undersized holes to .029" and figured I'd drill 'em all bigger if I decide to change sizes in the future. The siphon breaks were different between the two blocks, too. The other thing to check are the sizes of the pre-drilled IFRs & PVCRs, which I've also found to vary quite a bit from what advertised specs I can find.

I still think that the QFT & Proform parts are drilled by blind monkeys given how poorly they're done and how inconsistent their sizes can be, too. "Quality Control"... what's that?"

Definitely give 'em the scope before just pluggin' holes and slapping them on.

Are you aware of any other mods that were done to the 8082 as part of the E85 conversion? IIRC, those mods often include changing the sizes of the booster passages to support the additional fuel required for an alcohol tune. That type of thing needs to be "rolled back", if so.

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#2463942 - 03/09/18 05:01 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: mopar dave]
Mattax Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1201
Loc: Phila. Pa.
Originally Posted By mopar dave
Very informative. Thanks for the linc. Also, you will need a wide band while tuning those emultions.


Your welcome. And I agree that logging with a wideband will show if the AFR is staying flat at WOT and the effects of changing air bleed or e-holes until it is.

Jmarkaudio's suggestion in that thread seems to be a good systematic way of approaching the e-hole sizing.

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#2463964 - 03/09/18 05:26 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Mattax]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 13185
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Thanks guys this is a start, I intend on giving Dom a call but seen on facebook where he is/was down sick and didn't want to call him yet,,but I will, so I decided to post here and see what you guy's have to say about it,,,to my knowledge there is nothing left of anything E-85 I have already replaced the boosters and stakes and polished the throats of the main bores and took some roughness out of them, I have also pinned all the orfices and have numbers,,Idle feed restriction in main body is .098 or #40 drill,,high speed enrichment or PVCR's are .055 or #54 drill emulsions are all open except for a plug in the second one up from the bottom,, idle feed restriction in the block's are.033 or #66 drill,,booster stakes are .168 or # 18 drill, I now have pretty much everything to put this carb together and the only thing I need to do is run a tap in all the threaded holes to make sure it will screw together oh yeah I bought twenty blank jets so to drill them to the size needed,, keep it coming. up P.S. I do have a Innovate LM-2 and intend to get a second O2 sensor and use it heavily and have the program in my laptop so I can read it and save the charts for comparison.


Edited by dartman366 (03/09/18 05:30 PM)
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#2464148 - 03/09/18 11:45 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: AndyF]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18980
Loc: State of confusion
Originally Posted By AndyF
I don't think I've ever talked to anyone who understands emulsion jetting. Everyone just guesses at it. Nobody seems to know why Holley switched from 2 emulsion jets to 4 or 5. Maybe Braswell understands emulsion. At least he claims to but he never explains it so even he might not know.

Having said that, if you copy an old 850 DP you should be fine. Put an 028 in the top hole, blank in second, 028 in third and blank in the bottom. That should work well enough to get you going. You can play around with it if you want but I doubt you'll tell any difference. I've tried a bunch of different emulsion combinations over the years and never really noticed any difference.

If you really want to talk about emulsion jets then Tuner is probably the one guy on the internet who knows his stuff.


Nothing like insulting lots of smart guys that DO understand emulsion and other passages within a carb just because YOU don't..........Maybe we should bash your products mister wise guy and didn't you write a book that had a "Carb tuning" section..........Maybe EFI is best for you because you can push keys, make TONS of hp on your little optimist dyno but never post em.............THIS reaction from you really pisses me off I must say............... down tsk
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#2464150 - 03/09/18 11:47 PM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18980
Loc: State of confusion
Call me anytime.............
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#2464176 - 03/10/18 03:51 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
RustyM Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 341
Loc: Texas
I honestly don’t think Andy intended his comment as a “ dis” to anyone.
I’ve read a good bit on the subject and a lot of it does seem quite subjective .
Different carb tuners do go about things differently as well.

Just my thoughts - from a guy who appreciates all the input here.

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#2464180 - 03/10/18 04:29 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: dartman366]
70RT Charger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 681
Loc: eastern,Ky
Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.


Edited by 70RT Charger (03/10/18 04:31 AM)

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#2464207 - 03/10/18 07:44 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: 70RT Charger]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5919
Loc: Tulsa OK
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.


Oh come on, the last thing someone like Andy is going to do is want to stir up some Carb Drama. He didn't direct it at anyone he just stated his opinion. It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol.
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#2464209 - 03/10/18 07:56 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: Bad340fish]
mopar dave Offline
master

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 5906
Loc: flint michigan
Dom knows plenty about those emulsions and the rest of the circuits in a Holley carb for that matter. He gave me direction on a emulsion adjustment and the results were just as he said. Spent a bunch of time on the phone with him getting my 1100 tuned and in my opinion Dom knows his way around a Holley carb better than most.

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#2464226 - 03/10/18 08:53 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: 70RT Charger]
Mattax Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1201
Loc: Phila. Pa.
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.


Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to.

Originally Posted By Bad340fish
.... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol.


Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly.



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#2464238 - 03/10/18 09:21 AM Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question [Re: mopar dave]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 14244
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
"Tuner", whatever his name is, posted a link to a research paper from the 1960s that a group of Japanese engineers did that covers extensive computer modeling vs test results from an experimental carburetor on... emulsion. The correlation between them was very good.

I have a hard copy, but will see if I can find the link and post it.

Guys... it's science, not magic. I doesn't always do what we THINK it will, but it is reasonably predictable if you understand why. Part of why it's not as simple in the real world is the number of variables that influence it.

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