holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
#2463441
03/08/18 11:51 PM
03/08/18 11:51 PM
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Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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long story short, taking my 8082 2 circuit dommy back apart from when it was switched over to E-85 in a futile attempt to run corn squeezin"s and back to 110 octane racing fuel,, I aquired a set of billet metering blocks but not sure what size emulsion jets I need and in how many ports, the blocks have 4 emulsion ports and one has a plug and the rest have none, per side,,I have no Idea where to start for size and placemen as I under stand the emultions set the fuel curve thru out the rpm curve and I definately don't want to be too lean, this is for a drag car only, 512 cubes 12.3 compression, 690 lift cam, 272 duration@50.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2463594
03/09/18 09:49 AM
03/09/18 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
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If the metering blocks were designed as E85 specific, you might need some other changes, too. There is a lot more to metering blocks than just emulsion. Check with Dom.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2463720
03/09/18 02:06 PM
03/09/18 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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... I aquired a set of billet metering blocks... have 4 emulsion ports and one has a plug and the rest have none, per side...
Sounds like QFT/Proform 4-emulsion blocks (same thing except the anodized color). As an FYI, I've cut-n-pasted something about those blocks that I posted recently on another forum: "I've had 2 sets of the QFT/Proform 4-emulsion billet blocks and their emulsion orifice sizing has been all over the place. The specs I found indicated the as-drilled e-holes are supposed to be .028", and they say to open up the pre-drilled hole to about .050" if you're going to convert to screw-in jets.
The first set ranged from .024" to .028", so I equalized them all to .028". The second set was just under .027" on one block and just over .029" on the other. For that set I simply opened the undersized holes to .029" and figured I'd drill 'em all bigger if I decide to change sizes in the future. The siphon breaks were different between the two blocks, too. The other thing to check are the sizes of the pre-drilled IFRs & PVCRs, which I've also found to vary quite a bit from what advertised specs I can find.
I still think that the QFT & Proform parts are drilled by blind monkeys given how poorly they're done and how inconsistent their sizes can be, too. "Quality Control"... what's that?"
Definitely give 'em the before just pluggin' holes and slapping them on. Are you aware of any other mods that were done to the 8082 as part of the E85 conversion? IIRC, those mods often include changing the sizes of the booster passages to support the additional fuel required for an alcohol tune. That type of thing needs to be "rolled back", if so.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: mopar dave]
#2463942
03/09/18 08:01 PM
03/09/18 08:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Very informative. Thanks for the linc. Also, you will need a wide band while tuning those emultions. Your welcome. And I agree that logging with a wideband will show if the AFR is staying flat at WOT and the effects of changing air bleed or e-holes until it is. Jmarkaudio's suggestion in that thread seems to be a good systematic way of approaching the e-hole sizing.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mattax]
#2463964
03/09/18 08:26 PM
03/09/18 08:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Thanks guys this is a start, I intend on giving Dom a call but seen on facebook where he is/was down sick and didn't want to call him yet,,but I will, so I decided to post here and see what you guy's have to say about it,,,to my knowledge there is nothing left of anything E-85 I have already replaced the boosters and stakes and polished the throats of the main bores and took some roughness out of them, I have also pinned all the orfices and have numbers,,Idle feed restriction in main body is .098 or #40 drill,,high speed enrichment or PVCR's are .055 or #54 drill emulsions are all open except for a plug in the second one up from the bottom,, idle feed restriction in the block's are.033 or #66 drill,,booster stakes are .168 or # 18 drill, I now have pretty much everything to put this carb together and the only thing I need to do is run a tap in all the threaded holes to make sure it will screw together oh yeah I bought twenty blank jets so to drill them to the size needed,, keep it coming. P.S. I do have a Innovate LM-2 and intend to get a second O2 sensor and use it heavily and have the program in my laptop so I can read it and save the charts for comparison.
Last edited by dartman366; 03/09/18 08:30 PM.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2464150
03/10/18 02:47 AM
03/10/18 02:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Thumperdart
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Call me anytime.............
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2464180
03/10/18 07:29 AM
03/10/18 07:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
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70RT Charger
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Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought.
Last edited by 70RT Charger; 03/10/18 07:31 AM.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2464207
03/10/18 10:44 AM
03/10/18 10:44 AM
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Bad340fish
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Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought. Oh come on, the last thing someone like Andy is going to do is want to stir up some Carb Drama. He didn't direct it at anyone he just stated his opinion. It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2464226
03/10/18 11:53 AM
03/10/18 11:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Mattax
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Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought. Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to. .... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol. Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mattax]
#2464283
03/10/18 02:27 PM
03/10/18 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Thumperdart
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Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought. Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to. .... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol. Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly. I didn't take it so personal myself but saying Braswell, Mark W and any top builders don't know how emulsion works is about as far out there as all of Arrogant Andy's 900+ hp motors..........You are an ex engineer Andy so maybe you should stick to that and it's VERY obvious why you didn't take the THUMPER EFI challenge cos you wouldn't have 1/2 the nut swingers you do now following your bs..........I don't claim to know it all but MOST of my results are good and I try and stay humble and learn as much as I can and ALWAYS answer the phone to help out when I can so there you go boy............What's really funny is that you NEVER defend yourself because you are that fing arrogant and I'm not politically wimpy correct so let this lay where it will.........
Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/10/18 02:28 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: BradH]
#2464870
03/11/18 07:16 PM
03/11/18 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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dartman366
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the only other thing I found was the Transition slot jetting had been blowed out and I am fixing that problem according to thumpers instructions, just need to order some brass set screws from Fastenal here in town or from Mcmaster Carr then drill them accordingly.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2465488
03/12/18 10:36 PM
03/12/18 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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dartman366
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If there's enuff material there, drill n tap for 8-32 set screws and start at .055 and go up or down as needed but w/out an afr gauge it's a guessing game and LOTS of trial an error..........Good talking to you and if you do what we discussed you should be pretty close then salt to taste........ took the press in jets out the main body and checked and there is enough meat to make it work with 8-32"s, just ordered the brass set screws today from Fastenal, probably get on it this weekend and give you a call back when I get ready to screw this thing together just to make sure I have covered everything. I have a innovate lm-2 and going to get a couple of new SD cards and a second o2 sensor so I can read both banks, thanks for the info and insights, it was good to talk to you also, I feel a whole lot better about this pile of parts on my bench now
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2465660
03/13/18 10:07 AM
03/13/18 10:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
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Andy’s comments sound pretty insulting to me and were geared toward Dom I thought. Unfortunately have to agree. Andy can say for himself what he intended, but it certainly came across just as Dom said. And just as Dom wrote, it slapped a bunch of guys that Dom and Andy know well. Anyone who pokes around at that link I posted above will figure out who Dom was refering to. .... It is easy to find 10 different opinions on emulsion, which makes it easy to believe no one really understands it. I sure as heck don't lol. Sure there are lots of opinions, but that doesn't mean no one really understands. It may mean there are a bunch of people willing to spout off as if they know something, whether or not they understand the principles. The people Dom refers to have spent the time and effort to learn the principles which are based in fluid dynamics, physics, and lots of engineering study. It's in NACA and similar research papers, along with the classic books on carburation and combustion engines by guys like Obert, Larew, Taylor. Many of these guys Dom refers to have been pretty helpful in sharing the sources and helping the rest of us understand this stuff enough to use practicaly. I didn't take it so personal myself but saying Braswell, Mark W and any top builders don't know how emulsion works is about as far out there as all of Arrogant Andy's 900+ hp motors..........You are an ex engineer Andy so maybe you should stick to that and it's VERY obvious why you didn't take the THUMPER EFI challenge cos you wouldn't have 1/2 the nut swingers you do now following your bs..........I don't claim to know it all but MOST of my results are good and I try and stay humble and learn as much as I can and ALWAYS answer the phone to help out when I can so there you go boy............What's really funny is that you NEVER defend yourself because you are that fing arrogant and I'm not politically wimpy correct so let this lay where it will......... I suspect andy f is being paid either directly or indirectly for the promotion of EFI, as of late he consistently points out his unproven assessment that EFI is superior to a properly tuned carb. (it is not yet and likely never will with the exception of cold to warm street drivability)
Last edited by Harry's Taxi 2; 03/13/18 10:08 AM.
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: RustyM]
#2465778
03/13/18 02:22 PM
03/13/18 02:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Mattax
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As to my comments on this thread, which only further inflamed things it seems: ... Rusty, No apology needed. I'm glad you posted what you did. A. If you and bad340fish hadn't said anything, then you might still be thinking this area is a matter of unknown variables with lots of opinions. It was an opportunity to set the record straight. BradH summed it up so well: "Guys... it's science, not magic. It doesn't always do what we THINK it will, but it is reasonably predictable if you understand why. Part of why it's not as simple in the real world is the number of variables that influence it." It takes experience and a bit of an art to stay within the stable range and reduce the number of trials, but it is all grounded known principles. Guys like Dom, BradH, Tuner, Mark W, Shrinker (RIP) and others have all been willing to share the parameters and approaches which have worked (or not) to make it easier for us. B. There was no way for you and many others to know how insulting Andy's statement was. Sure, if you read the link and poked around RFS, MSV, YB and ST, it might have become apparent. But most guys here aren't doing that. AndyF has been helpful to me on occassion. I appreciate that. I left my response wide open for him to say it was inadvertent. If you like a "think tank" atmosphere, I'll encourage you to spend some time checking out the RFS forum for carbs, FI, and ignition related discussions.
Last edited by Mattax; 03/13/18 06:19 PM.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2465834
03/13/18 03:57 PM
03/13/18 03:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Mattax
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Along the lines of your guy's comment;one point Shrinker made is that a well designed e-bleed system allows more latitude for variations in engines than a solid fuel carb (he should know he made such carbs for his customers). If you're up for another way of approaching carburetion .. think of an engine as a machine to raise the energy level of a fuel to as high as possible prior to initiating controlled combustion. That sentence really needs thinking about. If you approach an engine that way it opens a whole new way of thinking... A little teaser from "Emulsion" posted at MSV It sounds very brainy, but just being aware of it I found is helpful.
Last edited by Mattax; 03/13/18 04:04 PM.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2465843
03/13/18 04:10 PM
03/13/18 04:10 PM
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RustyM
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: RustyM]
#2465847
03/13/18 04:18 PM
03/13/18 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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To be honest, my carb tuning skills need to be stepped up quite a bit. At times it doesn't feel as if I'm much beyond "If it goes faster with bigger jets, it must be tuned right". What I thought I "knew" about setting up baseline tunes for my carbs last fall sure didn't prove itself well on the dyno, but it gave me a bunch of new questions and approaches to consider. Getting to use a wideband 02 on my car with my carbs should be a learning experience. Also, I did locate the research paper I'd mentioned above here: "Effects of Air-Bleed Systems on Carburettor Performance" Yasuke ASANO, Toshitaka CHUMA, Heiichiro HAGA, Tadahiro MOCHIDA Overview: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsme1958/11/46/11_46_691/_articleDownload: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsme1958/11/46/11_46_691/_pdf/-char/en It turns out there is also a "sequel", although I haven't found a copy that's been translated into English. Even though it's still in Japanese, I'm going to see if I can make any sense of the diagrams since they're presented in a similar manner to those in the original paper. "Effects of Multihole Air-Bleed Systems on Carburettor Performance" Yasuke ASANO, Ichiro ISOBE Overview: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kikai1938/37/297/37_297_1026/_articleDownload: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kikai1938/37/297/37_297_1026/_pdf/-char/en >> IN JAPANESE <<
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: RustyM]
#2465963
03/13/18 07:40 PM
03/13/18 07:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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dartman366
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As to my comments on this thread, which only further inflamed things it seems:
1. I have been helped greatly by many here. Over 30 years away from cars/ racing and catching up as been both exciting and difficult . The folks here have been incredibly helpful.
2. It’s in my nature to to see the best in folks, help resolve conflicts etc. I certainly should have realized with a forum this size and been around this long, there would be a few issues/ conflicts of opinion etc.
3. I’m a guy that thrives on “ think tank” type differences in thinking that usually produce excellent problem solving - I did not realize this thread contained more than that.
4. I’m so far behind in so many areas- emulsion certainly being one- I should have kept my mouth shut .
5. Andy has been helpful to me as has Dwayne , Thumper, Cab, Cm and so many others . Please forgive my attempt at “ benefit of doubt “ causing greater inflammation .
I appreciate you all- more than you can imagine.
This Moparts team has saved me countless funds, time, mistakes - your really invaluable to many folks - truly .
Just thought you should know that on the wider scales of things- this digital shop makes a real difference because of all of you- differences not withstanding.
I can say I agree with everything you said here with the exception of your comment about being inflametory, some times things typed on a computer is misconstrued and /or misunderstood because tone of voice is missing and also facial or body language is not seen either, which make's it easier to understand how the person intended for the comment to be taken, is that what happened here? don't know, maybe, maybe not, but to me its over and in the past, I am glad it didn't kill the post like so many times before, so to me I see where you did NO wrong and maybe we all can learn some technical stuff.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2465972
03/13/18 07:54 PM
03/13/18 07:54 PM
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pittsburghracer
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When you type something end it with lol or one of these then you can always deny it. Lol.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2466025
03/13/18 09:17 PM
03/13/18 09:17 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,675 Mi.
G-Money1320
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Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!!
416 stroker from Nick at Compu-flow. 11.14 in full street trim. Seems like a new best every time out. 11.06 open headers----so far!!
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: G-Money1320]
#2466041
03/13/18 09:44 PM
03/13/18 09:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!! I believe you are correct but I wish the phone connection was better and I didn't have to make him repeat so many times, don't know what was going on there.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: G-Money1320]
#2466116
03/13/18 11:40 PM
03/13/18 11:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Thumperdart
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Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!!
Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/14/18 01:14 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: RustyM]
#2466120
03/13/18 11:45 PM
03/13/18 11:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Thumperdart
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Will check that out Mattax- thanks! Do indeed enjoy the “ think tank” type work - good for the grey matter .
Talked to the Local carb tuner and- have a better grasp now as he stated similar to Brad. The math is the math. The problem he stated ( if I got it this time ) is that we are often dealing with less than precision instruments ( carbs) which carb tunes try to rectify and then all the variables of fuels/ air quality etc.
Thus some see this area as “ magic “ while those dealing with the science are dealing with math and- headaches- grin.
He also stated- Carbs are funny things because they go on engines and engines are funny thing because people build them- we don’t get cookie cutter constants and that’s why we get to make a living .
That’s pretty close- best I remember anyway .
He just had one for a 1600 hp , well built engine and carb just “ wouldn’t work “ after everyone tried all they could- sent it to him.
Couldn’t find a thing wrong ,,, until he noticed the scratch “ pattern “ on baseplate. Checked it for flat- sure enough, wasn’t . He dyed it and measured- someone had taken a sanding belt to it! 12 thou milled off later- great carb!
Magic? Nope .
Math and attention to detail? Yep.
Btw- am I The last guy on here to see “ Thumper carbs “ on Facebook ?
Sheesh - sweet . Take me another few days to study that page - some really nice pieces there. That page is ok but the page I'm on most and chat through is Dominic Thumper but I appreciate the props and the ONLY reason I got a bit crazy is because of the insults by someone who has no clue. I don't and refuse to take jabs from anyone who doesn't know me or who doesn't know jack about their statements and MOST guys on here ROCK w/a few douche nuggets sprinkled in for good measure.............enjoy.......
Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/13/18 11:46 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2466178
03/14/18 01:53 AM
03/14/18 01:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Mark Whitener
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Well lets see if I can prove Andy wrong here.
You have to understand the reason for an emulsion system. Take your C&S Aerosol billet carbs, they do not us a booster, they use a discharge tube. There is no emulsion used, save for a very small main air bleed and one bleed above float level to act as a kill bleed. A tube senses airflow at a one to one ratio as the pressure difference or vacuum increases, so fuel flows in a direct proportion to the airflow thru the carb, so only a main jet is needed to set the correct amount of fuel. A booster however does not flow one to one, it flows in a straight line as pressure difference or vacuum increases, however the airflow curves towards a horizontal flatline. As a result an air correction system, emulsion, is needed to allow the booster signal to follow airflow. And it is there mostly for air correction, emulsion or emulsified fuel is a result of the air correction, and should not be relied on to emulsify the fuel. This is where some carbs go off the deep end.
The second part of the air correction/emulsion passage on a standard Holley 4 barrel is that it holds fuel, so as air is pushed from the main air bleed down the well the fuel is pushed out of the emulsion bleeds, making it an added acceleration circuit. Remember this.
So what happens is as the signal becomes strong enough to start fuel flow it also tugs on the emulsion passage. Any bleed above fuel level will delay the start, and will depend on the total area of the bleed or bleeds and the size of the main air bleed. This is where bigger and smaller main air bleeds can delay or speed up a little the start. However once the fuel flow starts the large bleed can actually fatten it quicker, allowing the fuel in the emulsion well to be pulled faster into the mainwell. This can make it excessively rich early with a larger bleed, and combined with a lot of emulsion goes off the deep end. Then as RPM's and demand climbed it shoots the other way, goes lean. I see this when more than 3 bleeds and over .028" emulsions, and over .030 main air bleeds. What also happens is the air goes thru in big slugs making the fuel curve choppy, fuel is not mixed well with the air coming into the mainwell. It leaves the booster in spurts rather than an even mix. Once the fuel is depleted to the bottom open emulsion hole then it just feeds air, until the throttle is closed and the mains stop, and the emulsion well is allowed to fill again.
So what do you want to accomplish? It depends on the application, fuel type, engine demands... What I find is when you use a booster that atomizes fuel well to distribute fuel evenly you don't need any more air than what is needed for correction. For most gas carbs on the street a kill bleed and two .026-.028 holes spaced to go about half way down the well is plenty. I like smaller bleed for racing, and usually space three smaller bleeds. And if I can control the kill bleed size even better. With alcohols and oxygenated fuels, or big engines with two carbs you can place the bottom bleed all the way down, use all the fuel emulsion well. I set most race carbs up this way, but with a small bleed usually at .021 or smaller. I have a blow thru I reworking that will likely get a .021 at the top for a kill, .024 all the way at the bottom. And a last piece of this puzzle to remember is that at WOT the idle circuit that usually pulls from the bottom of the mainwell can now become a bleed into the main circuit, adding more air in....
Now with E85 you have a significantly different fuel in the mix. Too much air makes it stupid rich early, lean at the top. I've seen it chased on a dyno... once emulsion was set small it cleared things up. For E85 go real small, I've got an RS Demon that has .014 in the top, .016 third and .018 forth with the second and fifth plugged. For the Dominator get the top small, .014-.016, and .020-.021's in the third and fourth or third and fifth on 5 hole blocks.
Mark Whitener [url=www.racingfuelsystems.com[/url]
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: max_maniac]
#2466179
03/14/18 01:56 AM
03/14/18 01:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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I meet a few of the Holley engineers in meetings when I worked in the carb lab(wish I worked in that area longer) but even they would argue in some of those meetings.. I dont know what all the argument is about but Andy stated his opinion.. I have have gotten good info from both guys and thanks to both EDIT also guys.. remember.. cars are nothing but MATH and its ALL math.. we dont just think up this stuff
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/14/18 02:52 AM.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mark Whitener]
#2466582
03/14/18 08:23 PM
03/14/18 08:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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I was getting ready to increase the size of the fuel restrictor in my metering Promax billet metering block based on a lean wideband reading I was getting at idle. This is on the old Direct Connection 2300 series "racing" carbs with the mechanical outboards that have no idle circuits and blocked power valve holes in the metering blocks. I love these carbs and have been running them for years.
I was thinking that I had enough of an understanding of emulsion circuits and metering blocks to do what I was about to do. Heck, I was able to adjust the main jets using a wide band, so I thought I would just increase the main restiction jet 3 sizes from .031" to .034" and recheck the A/F ratio. I figured it would be richer at idle afterwards. After all, I had been getting readings of 22 & 24 to 1 before the gauge zero out due to leaness at idle. More fuel should work like increasing a main jet at cruise and wide open throttle I thought. It might have.
I knew I had too much of the idle transfer slot uncovered from watching Youtube videos on Holleys. I tried opening the outboard carbs throttle blades very slightly to simulate drilling holes in the center carb throttle plates. As I closed the center carb's throttle blades using the idle screw, a surprising thing began to happen. After a few minutes, I had the center carb closed up significantly, and the outboard carbs open about a half a turn of their idle screw from fully shut.
To my surprise, the A/F ratio was now in the mid to low 15's at 900 rpm. The idle is much more stable and the response off idle is as good or better than it ever has been.
I expected that bypassing more air through the outboards would have leaned out the A/F ratio even more than it had been. It actually richened it up and the car is running better than ever now. Can anyone clarify the physics behind that?
On a side note, I have C&S building me a set of aerosol 500 cfm mechanical carbs using the body of a spare outboard I found on Ebay. I'm looking forward to a back to back chassis dyno test to see if they build more power.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: max_maniac]
#2466621
03/14/18 10:02 PM
03/14/18 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Bill ,you are definitely in good hands with Dom. as I am patiently waiting for my new carb to show up from him!! Lots of phone time and more knowledge than I ever knew existed about carbs!! I believe you are correct but I wish the phone connection was better and I didn't have to make him repeat so many times, don't know what was going on there. Bill if you would finally get rid of the can/line phone you may get a better connection --- time to up grade to a better string, but it still beats smoke signals.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: jbc426]
#2466629
03/14/18 10:20 PM
03/14/18 10:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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I expected that bypassing more air through the outboards would have leaned out the A/F ratio even more than it had been. It actually richened it up and the car is running better than ever now. Can anyone clarify the physics behind that? I'll give it a shot. .... After a few minutes, I had the center carb closed up significantly, and the outboard carbs open about a half a turn of their idle screw from fully shut. It seems like you balanced it. The engine consumes about the same amount of air - at least by volume. The total restriction to air flow is similar or little more than it was before. Enough so that the vacuum at the idle discharge areas is noticible higher than before. This increase in pressure difference is moving more fuel through the idle circuits. This more than offset any drop in the air mass flow density. Even at the lower throttle position, it seems likely in this case that the idle jets are still the main restriction on fuel at idle. I'm curious, are the idle jets on this carb located below the fuel level?
Last edited by Mattax; 03/14/18 10:25 PM. Reason: clarity, I hope!
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mattax]
#2466738
03/15/18 01:37 AM
03/15/18 01:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Yes, I believe they are, but I'll have to double check.
Thanks for the insight.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: jbc426]
#2466827
03/15/18 11:02 AM
03/15/18 11:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Yes, I believe they are, but I'll have to double check. I was thinking about this. If the fluid was exactly the same we could compare areas of the discharge restrictions with the feed restriction. But that's not the case, even with the high position, additional air and pressure comes in at the top of the transfer slot. Low position should be more consistant, so not encouraging a change to high.* Just curious as I was thinking about this. *Summary and background of why low position is almost always better for us is posted here: Idle Jet Position
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mattax]
#2466889
03/15/18 01:34 PM
03/15/18 01:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Thanks, that is good stuff. I just found that site as a result of this post.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: jbc426]
#2467885
03/17/18 10:23 PM
03/17/18 10:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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well It's all together and ready to put on the motor and try it,,,if it's warm enough to open the doors of the garage, this was a little more involved than I expected, I just don't know how Thumper gets them done as quick as he does, and if it weren't for him I would still be scratchin' my head trying to figure it out.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2468237
03/18/18 07:15 PM
03/18/18 07:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Well,, it's on the car and running,,,and quite well I might add, once I got the float level set which was a little high and started to work with the curb idle screw's it came around quite nicely and sounds a lot crisper, idle tip in is smooth and there is no more blubbering like the other one(which I think I found the problem there) just smooth as silk up to the point the boosters took over, the other one sounded like it was loaded up a little and then would clean up so that is a big plus,, got it up to running temp for a while then shut it off,, let it sit for about 10 minutes and reached in and hit the start button and it was running and never touched the pedal,,,now for the tracks to open and start to dial this thing in. and also a big thank you to Dom for bailing me out with good straight forward no BS answers and tech advise.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2468338
03/18/18 10:29 PM
03/18/18 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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Well,, it's on the car and running,,,and quite well I might add, once I got the float level set which was a little high and started to work with the curb idle screw's it came around quite nicely and sounds a lot crisper, idle tip in is smooth and there is no more blubbering like the other one(which I think I found the problem there) just smooth as silk up to the point the boosters took over, the other one sounded like it was loaded up a little and then would clean up so that is a big plus,, got it up to running temp for a while then shut it off,, let it sit for about 10 minutes and reached in and hit the start button and it was running and never touched the pedal,,,now for the tracks to open and start to dial this thing in. and also a big thank you to Dom for bailing me out with good straight forward no BS answers and tech advise. This is what I like to hear and now the tuning will begin but kudos to you for tackling what some consider too hard or impossible to do and I get it..........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: BradH]
#2469126
03/20/18 02:15 PM
03/20/18 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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I THINK this one is the 1.610 bore and 1 3/4 blades but shipped so many lately I forgot...........
Last edited by Thumperdart; 03/20/18 02:15 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2469419
03/20/18 10:48 PM
03/20/18 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Well,, it's on the car and running,,,and quite well I might add, once I got the float level set which was a little high and started to work with the curb idle screw's it came around quite nicely and sounds a lot crisper, idle tip in is smooth and there is no more blubbering like the other one(which I think I found the problem there) just smooth as silk up to the point the boosters took over, the other one sounded like it was loaded up a little and then would clean up so that is a big plus,, got it up to running temp for a while then shut it off,, let it sit for about 10 minutes and reached in and hit the start button and it was running and never touched the pedal,,,now for the tracks to open and start to dial this thing in. and also a big thank you to Dom for bailing me out with good straight forward no BS answers and tech advise. This is what I like to hear and now the tuning will begin but kudos to you for tackling what some consider too hard or impossible to do and I get it.......... Well it took me two and a half solid days to do it and several times I had to walk away from it for a while,,, but I guess persistance paid off, or maybe it's just stubborness.LOL
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: dartman366]
#2469795
03/21/18 04:41 PM
03/21/18 04:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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I Live Here
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I do that DAILY..............LOL
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2470087
03/21/18 11:05 PM
03/21/18 11:05 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,675 Mi.
G-Money1320
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Mi.
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Yes you are correct Brad. I just have a small 416 though. A lot of phone time and I believe Dom has me where I need to be!
Last edited by G-Money1320; 03/21/18 11:13 PM.
416 stroker from Nick at Compu-flow. 11.14 in full street trim. Seems like a new best every time out. 11.06 open headers----so far!!
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Re: holley billet metering block and emulsion jet question
[Re: Mattax]
#2477740
04/05/18 06:07 AM
04/05/18 06:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Finally had the plate off, and the jets are above the fuel. Can I just drill and tap them into the lower hole? Or should I get a different metering block from someone who knows how to set one up?
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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