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#2458098 - 02/26/18 06:56 PM Need painting advice for a survivor paint car.
rarefish Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 1608
Loc: New York
I have a mostly original 1969 Dart GTS. It had been in storage for the past 40 years when I bought it in 2015. Back in 1969, when the car was just a few months old, the original owner crashed the rear drivers quarter panel. A body shop back then hung a new quarter panel and blended the new paint on the C-pillar and at the Dutchman panel.
Today that "repaired" paint work is mostly shot. It has been flaking off the top/back of the quarter panel near the trunk lid.
Last fall I talked to a body shop owner about re-shooting the quarter. He told me that he would paint the quarter in a base coat/clear coat urethane paint. Blending it across the driver's door, up the C-pillar and also across half of the trunk lid.

What is the best way to approach when trying to repaint a body panel on a older car that still has it's original paint? I'm thinking that they should shoot the panel with single stage enamel and blend it only at the C-pillar.
I'm not expecting a miracle here as I know matching old paint is really hard to do. I just don't think using a clear coat is the way to go when just re-shooting part of a car that still has it's original paint.


Attachments
69 Dart.JPG



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#2458103 - 02/26/18 07:00 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
RUNCHARGER Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15521
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
I dunno, I would guess if the quarter gets clear coated that the whole car is going to end up getting clear coated or it will not look very good. Maybe I'm wrong.
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#2458107 - 02/26/18 07:04 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
70plymA34 Offline
super stock

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 914
Loc: Long Island, NY
you might want to consult frank badalsons paint guy (stew jackson) on this one. he is an expert with paintwork on survivor cars.
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#2458149 - 02/26/18 08:13 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
blewbyu Offline
master

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 3489
Loc: Florida
IS that winner stickers in the 1/4 window?

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#2458173 - 02/26/18 08:44 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: blewbyu]
rarefish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 1608
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By blewbyu
IS that winner stickers in the 1/4 window?


Yes they are... They are I believe from the 1974 season. The car was parked the next year. I got it back on the road late last year for the first time since 1975. There is only 10K on the odometer.


Attachments
105_4534.JPG




Edited by rarefish (02/26/18 08:47 PM)

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#2458177 - 02/26/18 08:49 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: blewbyu]
Neil Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 12589
Loc: Eagle, Idaho
Base clear doesn't sound like it would work to me. If the texture is different it will look funny. I see cars in traffic that have had doors and fenders repainted and the difference in orange peel next to the nearest oem painted part gives it away even if the color is "close enough".

PPG Delstar acrylic enamel is likely as close as you can get to the factory paint. The color won't match so you'll have to have it tinted/adjusted for the cars age, newer paint ingredients, etc.

Seems like using the top quarter panel edge over to the Dutchman panel seam and then to the bottom of the roof would be less noticeable? Carefully back-masking on the edge of the quarter and the Dutchman seam would make for no tape lines. Where to stop at the roof is the tricky part.

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#2458179 - 02/26/18 08:51 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
BlueRacer69 Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/25/15
Posts: 404
Loc: Michigan
A lot of painters today won't paint anything except base coat/clear coat. I advise you to look for another painter. You are the one shelling out the money for the work, and you should have it the way YOU want, not the way the painter wants it. Or have the entire car repainted with base/clear.

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#2458202 - 02/26/18 09:21 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
Mike Mancini Offline
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Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 595
Loc: Mass
PPG Delstar Acrylic enamel has been discontinued and is no longer available
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#2458208 - 02/26/18 09:37 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 41867
Loc: Spokane Washington
Get a hold of Frank Badalson and ask him, he's repaired a number of survivor paint jobs, he knows some talented guys who can do it in single stage (properly). sixpackfrank@aol.com

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#2458221 - 02/26/18 10:30 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
NANKET Offline
master

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3961
Loc: northwest USA
Get someone who can blend a single stage metallic part. If a painter says it can't be done it just means they never learned how to do it. Makes me laugh out loud when I hear that.

Don't paint the door and trunk lid at all.

Neat car! What engine & Trans?

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#2458236 - 02/26/18 11:19 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: Mike Mancini]
Morty426 Offline
master

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 7938
Loc: Sacramento CA
Originally Posted By Mike Mancini
PPG Delstar Acrylic enamel has been discontinued and is no longer available


Yes and it sucks

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#2458272 - 02/27/18 07:23 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
stevet340 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 321
Loc: western PA
Single stage enamel can be blended weather it's a metallic paint or not. Stay far far away from anyone who says it can't and only does base clear paints. It's a lost art anymore, the paint is getting harder to find but pretty much any acrylic enamel will work, doesn't have to be PPG. DuPont, Acme, Sherwin Williams and several others make single stage acrylics. The ingredients and recipe should the same regardless of brand, just different paint/part numbers for the mix. The trick with metallics is to get the same size, style and type of metal flake and to have it lay down the same as the factory paint. Finding the right gun/nozzle may be tough, but a real painter will know what to do to make it match. I would buff the car first to get the old paint up to snuff. Best of luck, very few people will even want to attempt it but it will be well worth the effort when done correctly.

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#2458305 - 02/27/18 09:19 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: NANKET]
rarefish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 1608
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By NANKET
Get someone who can blend a single stage metallic part. If a painter says it can't be done it just means they never learned how to do it. Makes me laugh out loud when I hear that.

Don't paint the door and trunk lid at all.

Neat car! What engine & Trans?


340 4-speed

The color is B7 with a B5 interior.

I'm agreeing with those who say to stay away from two stage paint. I'm wondering if I can find a shop locally that can do it right.

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#2458321 - 02/27/18 09:42 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1003
Loc: pa.
The base/clear guy might be the best way to go. It is not original paint on the quarter panel anyway. I don’t know when acrylic enamel became available to shops but I first saw it in the early 70’s. My guess it has lacquer on the repaired panel. From the view in the second pic it seems like they didn’t get a good match back then. It is true that acrylic enamel can be blended, they even used to make a “color blender” which just worked like the base/clear the first shop suggested. That car looks awesome and I think a good painter could duplicate the original finish very well.

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#2458336 - 02/27/18 10:00 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: dan9]
6PKRTSE Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 3346
Loc: Motor City
It's a survivor. I would leave it alone. Even though not 100% factory. Besides, the whole Patina is the "in" thing these days.
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#2458340 - 02/27/18 10:05 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
dan9 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1003
Loc: pa.
I would be interested to know which route you take and see the results, please let us know what the experts say.

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#2458352 - 02/27/18 10:32 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: dan9]
ah1s Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/04
Posts: 59
You are are going to have to talk to someone who specializes in restorations not a production collision shop. I think a call to someone like Frank is the way to go for direction.

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#2458371 - 02/27/18 10:46 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
Silver70 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 18030
Loc: Rust Belt, SW PA
Yes it can be blended, but good luck finding a perfect match, not just color, but metal flake etc. Also anyone with a good eye will be able to see the blend area.
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#2458378 - 02/27/18 10:59 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: Silver70]
GibW340 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 345
Loc: Frederick , MD
Good body shops scan the paint and use a computer to match- can do a much better job now- usually shinier though-

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#2458385 - 02/27/18 11:07 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
topside Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 12194
Loc: So Near, Yet So Far
In the 2nd photo, it looks as though there's what's called an "open blend" in the sail panel (C-pillar). It may be possible to polish that back so any further repair can avoid re-shooting the roof; if not, should be able to backtape that contour.
The flaking on the quarter could be from a lacquer primer and/or paint that began cracking and over time allowed moisture intrusion.
Repair will involve expanding that area to clean it up, but at least you have good contours for back-taping.
Check around at local paint suppliers to see if there's a painter in your area who's skilled at solving these types of problems; it also requires an enthusiasm for the task.

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#2458417 - 02/27/18 12:08 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: topside]
DAYCLONA Offline
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15633
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By topside
In the 2nd photo, it looks as though there's what's called an "open blend" in the sail panel (C-pillar). It may be possible to polish that back so any further repair can avoid re-shooting the roof; if not, should be able to backtape that contour.
The flaking on the quarter could be from a lacquer primer and/or paint that began cracking and over time allowed moisture intrusion.
Repair will involve expanding that area to clean it up, but at least you have good contours for back-taping.
Check around at local paint suppliers to see if there's a painter in your area who's skilled at solving these types of problems; it also requires an enthusiasm for the task.




Agreed, chances are the repair area was lacquer based, as that was SOP back in day for blended collision repair, you'll need an experienced painter/mixer to achieve an acceptable blended repaint, IMHO knowing what limited paint choices that are available in single stage, Dupont Centari Acyrlic Enamel is perhaps the best choice for an "old school" blend, you do have a good roof line edge above the gutter to backtape, and to take the blend further along and hide it into the roof...

before repaint though the entire car should be properly paint detailed so the blended repair actually "blends in" from an aesthetics point of view...

be prepared for lots of spray outs and material costs before the repaint even takes place, color match won't be your biggest hurdle, the metallic shape/content/brilliance will be...

AFAIK Centari Acrylic Enamel is still available in NY as I had purchased some just about 2 yrs ago from a NY mixer, but supplies of single stage are drying up or being discontinued because of VOC compliance, so don't dwell on this project, or a entire VOC friendly repaint could be in your future

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#2458457 - 02/27/18 01:29 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: DAYCLONA]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1003
Loc: pa.
Do you mean you can still find what we used to call “factory pack” paint ? If so that would be the way to get the best chance for a match of the flake and color. It looks to me that the repaint did not match very well comparing the door to the quarter panel. Matching the panels is going to be tough without blending into the door. Even when those cars were new and with factory packaged paint you could see the repaint comparing panel to panel. Mopars with their acrylic enamel were not the best finishes in their day. Especially the metallics.


Edited by dan9 (02/27/18 08:59 PM)

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#2458477 - 02/27/18 02:15 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
topside Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 12194
Loc: So Near, Yet So Far
"Specialty coatings" is the term for VOC-non-compliant paint; some places put a cap on how much you can use.

Something else to consider is whether the replacement quarter was belt-cut or replaced in full: check inside the trunk and up the inside of the pillar, and for that matter around the perimeter. Might have to fix the sound deadener, too, if an OEM-original appearance is the goal.

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#2458508 - 02/27/18 03:19 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
jeff968 Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 3545
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By rarefish
I'm thinking that they should shoot the panel with single stage enamel and blend it only at the C-pillar.
I'm not expecting a miracle here as I know matching old paint is really hard to do. I just don't think using a clear coat is the way to go when just re-shooting part of a car that still has it's original paint.



I totally agree. Don't let them touch the original paint in any way. The quarter and C-pillar blend are already non-original so nothing to lose there. And the choice of single stage enamel is also a good one, just like what the factory used. Now, to find the paint and the person with the expertise to do the job.... Good luck


Edited by jeff968 (02/27/18 03:19 PM)
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#2458675 - 02/27/18 10:15 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: jeff968]
rarefish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 1608
Loc: New York
The quarter that was hung by the body shop was "belt cut". I assuming they did it that way to avoid having the remove the rear window.
The job was poorly done by today's standard. All of the welding was done using a brazing torch. The top of the quarter is in a little too much where it meets the driver's door gap.
What I got now is not pretty. I know getting a color match with a metallic paint is going to be a problem. I'm just hoping to make the car more presentable and avoid dropping big money getting it that way. Being that it is a A-body. It is real easy to get upside down money wise in one.


Attachments
100_3911.JPG

100_3902.JPG



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#2458730 - 02/28/18 04:38 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
BLACKHEMIRR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 384
I worked for a body shop supply store for several years after high school in the 80's. One time I had one of the painters actually bring the Mustang he had just painted the quarter on to the store to show me my mistake. I had mixed him Centari acrylic enamel for this silver Mustang, but wrote the formula down wrong, and added a couple parts of green rather than black. He was a great guy, but mad that day. It was a green quarter against a silver door, but you could not see the blend on the sail panel at all! It can be done, and there are a couple jobbers that still have PPG Delstar mixing tints. I'm kicking around painting my B7 car in single stage so the color would be right.

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#2458763 - 02/28/18 08:21 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: BLACKHEMIRR]
Little Detroit Offline
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Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 321
Loc: WV

IMO, seems you are getting a lot of well intended advise, but none that suit your needs, from what I can see from a few photos on the net.
I myself do my own Painting and I may not be the best there is, but im definitely no where near the worst either.
Blending was and is best done with lacquer paints, enamels will not melt into your original paint to your expectations if you are looking for a perfect match. First enamels have a natural " orange peel" effect no matter how good you are with the spray gun, there will a degree of orange peel that will need to be wet sanded and buffed to match your original paint. However if you are able to paint the entire panel edge to edge with enamel you may be able to get good texture match. from what I see IMO with the repairs that were done and the bad prep work , I don't believe your 1/4 panel is a candidate for blending. the idea of blending is to save from the cost of a repaint or for minor repairs.
on the other hand you may be able to find someone that says they can do it, but at what cost, and how far away from you will you have go the get the repair done. as others said you will have to find a very talented individual and that usually means more higher pricing.
now for the part that others forgot to tell you, if the previous repair was done with lacquer ,you will need to strip it regardless of the type paint you choose.(lifting problems and or the lacquer "hazing" ) do not put a catalyzed material over top of lacquer. of course it depends on the type finish you desire. just my opinion .

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#2458807 - 02/28/18 10:08 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
70plymA34 Offline
super stock

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 914
Loc: Long Island, NY
not sure if this will help. Chroma Paint in Hicksville NY was mixing Dupont Centauri. As far as i know they still do it. Southern Auto Color might have Delstar still. Regulations in the south seemed slightly lax in comparison to the north. LOL... Both places are old school and customer service is very good.

On small projects, I found the centauri easier to spray out than the ppg equivalents.
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#2458879 - 02/28/18 11:27 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
demon Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 970
Loc: Canada
The quarter panel was replaced and repainted, so that paint is not original on that particular panel. Either have someone who is experienced with /restoration/survivor type cars repaint the quarter with single stage paint to match the door, trunk lid, or if the majority of paint on that quarter is decent and a good colour match, have it spotted in along the top surface and call it done.

Hard to see from a photo, but I'd be inclined to spot in the top and leave the 40 year old repainted quarter as is unless the paint is failing on the rest of the quarter badly.

Buff the two scuffs off the side and leave the side as is

Awesome Dart by the way!


Edited by demon (02/28/18 11:29 AM)

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#2458971 - 02/28/18 02:23 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
dart4forte Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 14231
Loc: Mesa, Arizona
Originally Posted By ScottSmith_Harms
Get a hold of Frank Badalson and ask him, he's repaired a number of survivor paint jobs, he knows some talented guys who can do it in single stage (properly). sixpackfrank@aol.com


iagree

Better to go with someone experienced like Badalson. You could end up with a big mess by having someone that professes to know how to do it.

Say, what color are your seat belts?

Nice Dart.


Edited by dart4forte (02/28/18 02:23 PM)

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#2458981 - 02/28/18 02:43 PM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
RS23U1G Offline
Moparts Torchbearer

Registered: 04/19/12
Posts: 18847
Loc: Detroit
Originally Posted By rarefish
I'm wondering if I can find a shop locally that can do it right.



That's the way I'd approach it...

We got a coupla' old-timers in these parts that are wizards when it comes to color match...


There's got to be somebody your way...

Trick's gonna be finding 'em...


Tread lightly...

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#2459361 - 03/01/18 10:03 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: dart4forte]
rarefish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 1608
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By dart4forte
Originally Posted By ScottSmith_Harms
Get a hold of Frank Badalson and ask him, he's repaired a number of survivor paint jobs, he knows some talented guys who can do it in single stage (properly). sixpackfrank@aol.com


iagree

Better to go with someone experienced like Badalson. You could end up with a big mess by having someone that professes to know how to do it.

Say, what color are your seat belts?

Nice Dart.


It has blue seat belts with black carpets....


Attachments
105_4543.JPG



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#2461876 - 03/06/18 12:59 AM Re: Need painting advice for a survivor paint car. [Re: rarefish]
PDR Dude Offline
member

Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
Try talking to a couple local Paint Reps. The guys that sell the body shops the paint. There in and out of the shops dealing with the painters, problem cars, color match etc. Likely they would know the best painter in your area. Someone that knows how to shoot single stage and "melt it in" blend it. Reps. typically have the computer color eye equipment too...

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