511 low deck, Indy 440-1's unported but bowl blended and port matched. Comp flat tappet intake Duration @.050: 265
Camshaft - Exhaust Duration @.050: 270
Camshaft - Intake Lift at Valve: 585
Camshaft - Exhaust Lift at Valve: 592
Lobe Separation: 110
10.5 compression pump gas
Indy 4500 manifold and 1050 carb.
Bob Mazz 2" 2-1/8" step headers
Hope to be on the dyno this weekend.

725HP---625 TQ

690 hp / 595 tq

675hp / 560tq

Not enough

745hp 640tq, just saw one come off the dyno it made 20 hp more with vac. pump....

are those cam specs correct? 294 and 305* @ .050" and only 585 lift??

655 hp, 690 tq

how far are you going to turn it?

According to Wallace racing calculator, 3400lbs @ 130 MPH is 575hp....

Sorry, didnt notice the "440" in signature..

my thoughts also. I am thinking those must be at .020, or .006, which will alter the results a bit😀

Cam specs are wrong for the lift..I'd guess something like 275@50 would be more in line..IMO

Sorry, typo it was late. 265 and 270 @ .050
I intend to spin it to 6500-7000.
Thanks.

Probably around 625 hp with those parts. Could easily be more with proper head work, ported intake and a roller cam. You have another 100 hp of potential in that basic combo.

Unported heads, I would guess 620 hp and about the same in torque. Like Andy said at least 100hp potential with roller cam plus head and intake porting.

That was part of my plan, make 620-650 now and then step it up at a later date.

I'll be really surprised if it doesn't make north of 650 HP and 620 Ft lb. of torque with those parts
What brand engine dyno and how much elevation, humidity and barometric pressure on the dyno are you expecting
Good luck

585 hp

Geez, your talking rear wheel yeah ? Im at 600 RWHP with ported SR's, surely this combo should be high 600's + at the flywheel ?

680 FWHP

My 12.9 493 with ported Edelbrock heads, .660 roller and flowed BG dom. on a Team G made right at 650 hp and torque. Peak torque was right at 5,800 so I would shift the 3 speed at 6,200 which was the quickest the car went. Shifting any higher would slow it down some. I would imagine yours should make a little less and 625 seems about right. Some guys on here go pretty quick with large, solid cams. I would just put a roller in it now if it were mine.

Whose dyno?? On a few dynos quoted on here, I'm sure it would show over 800...

I'll wager...132 to 133 mph

I can't see it making much more than 600fwhp, not enough head/small cam for them cubes to make mid to upper 600's in my opnion.

My mates 440 Dart with 12.7:1, Eddy std port MCH 325cfm heads, DC.590 solid purple cam, 1050 Dom., Victor int...just managed to hit the 600fwhp mark according to best mph/weight. and that cam was done at 6600rpm, car would slow if he shifted it over 6400 through the gears.

The latest generation 440-1's come with CNC'd chambers, and with the right valve job and bowl work can flow quite well.

LOL

I was thinking more like 1000 horsepower

Do you have any of those #'s , I based my guess on older none ported 440-1's & the low lift cam.

For sure the low-ish lift of the cam(for this combo) doesn't play into the -1's attributes, especially earlier ones.

The last set I did(with cnc'd chambers) flowed 297@.600 ootb, and about 340@.600 after proper prep.

I feel like the 10.5cr is a bit low for the basic combo as well.

If the heads were similar to the last ones I did, and I had it on our dyno here, I'd be looking to be in the 650+ range........ It is a 511 after all.
I'd have used 1.6 rockers for a cam like that in this type of build.

Thanks Dwayne for your valuable input !!!

We have (42) SAE calibrated engine dyno's. Our Dyno's have to be calibrated because of all of the OEM prototype developement & production work we do so our Dyno's are usually about 15% less than the average Joe. Believe me, you walk into most single dyno engine shops & say you want to make approx 800 HP they can make it make the number pretty easily when it is probably making more like 680ish HP.

Cant see that combo being anything much over 600hp for sure of if it even got there. But as been pointed out dynos are dynos and not all of them spit out the most accurate of results for sure. Id say at Mountain View that combo would struggle to see 575, that's where I have my most recent dyno experience.

I guess whatever numbers that dyno throws out, whats more important is knowing where the power is being made with the combo and then perhaps some gearing changes may/may not be in order.

As a guide, with an on track 620fwhp/3400lbs the ticket would look something like this>
60 Foot E.T. : 1.43
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.48
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 104.88
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.27
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 130
with it in the teens? if it 60's better than shown above.
according to my calcs.

Since its a Comp cam, I'd be interested to know what the lobe numbers are....... And I assume you're running 1.5 rockers??

Be lucky to break 600 hp, probably more like 575,???

That cam @ 265 intake is smaller them the MP 590 @ 271 @ .05 you were using. But with the new engine you will be making a lot of torque. To make HP you need to spin them a bit. Your not going to be able to spin that new engine very high in its hp band with that small of cam. It will be done by 6000 rpm. Typical 500" motors with your comp can hit around 600 HP with the mp 590, your using a even Smaller cam.

New cam

I am guessing your goal might be 10.01 et?
Just a thought, has anyone had good luck with 1.7 ratio rockers and beehive springs? That would get you .630 + net lift on the intakes, and raise the net lift everywhere, which i would think should be well worth the trouble, and cheap power to boot.

I doubt the power increase from a ratio swap would corolate to the $1100 price tag.

If I had $1100 to throw at it, it would be on a roller cam, lifters, and springs.

10sec440- Were you able to get it on the dyno? Just curious of the outcome.

With as widely varying as the guesses were.......someone should have been close.

We always do this at work with alot of the race engines we build. Sometimes it's $1.00 per person per guess, sometimes $5.00 per guess. Winner gets the pot. We did this on my Hemi when we dyno'd it. So many were so close but it did make more than everyone was expecting.

Here is a engine we just did. Its a 496 with the same cam and compression on pump gas. It has Max Wedge Port SR Heads as received from Indy with NO porting, just our valve job. It has a 440-2 Intake and a 950 Quick Fuel.

With the 440-1 Heads and the 400-3 Intake with a 4500 Carb it will make more than this with out a doubt.

Why so lean...........

That's the first thing I noticed, too.

Chuck: Is that an out-of-the-box Q-Series 950, by chance?

Your right, the data says its lean. As nice as it is to be overloaded with data, sometimes you have to do what the engine wants. Plugs looked perfect as well as the exhaust ports. It was a Q950 Stock jetting was way to rich, I would have liked to try a 1050 but didn't have any on hand. This is for a 100% street car 68 Road Runner 4 Speed, it should be a lot of fun

Anytime a hot/bigger motor runs a 4150 type carb they CAN go very rich due to the added velocity that larger cubes create and are more sensitive to tune from my experience. The RIGHT Dommy will smooth that right out..........

The O2 sensor information on a dyno can often be wrong. A small air leak into the exhaust system will make everything look lean even if the engine is running just fine.

I also learned the hard way that O2 sensor data can be messed up electronically. It is a small digital signal and there are lots of ways to mess up small digital signals.

The AFR read out says lean, the BSFC says a little fat up high.
Test,test and test some more until it goes slower or looses power, correct
Maybe it needs a slightly bigger high speed bleeds
I agree on a bigger CFM carb. to help eliminate the manifold vacuum increasing restricting the air flow into the motor

This has been debated / argued before, but you cannot tune a carb by BSFC #s. BSFC doesn't tell anything about the air-fuel ratio. It's simply a measure of efficiency of the amount of fuel used to make the power recorded.

EDIT: LINK to article on BSFC vs Air-Fuel Ratio...

How much did you have to lean it out from the standard tune? I'm a little surprised you said it was too rich from what I recall the out-of-the-box settings are.

I agree!

Of course the customer will add a air cleaner and full exhaust and that will change things to so no reason to chase a couple HP onthe dyno and like most guys he will do a little tuning once it's in the car. Reliability and driveability are more important.

Just for example, a A/SA Max Wedge on our dyno will make 595 hp and run 10.20 at 3400lbs. So how fast would you think a 3600 lb 4 speed Road Runner would go ?

I believe it was 4 front and rear

This should be a new thread all by itself!

I know some 4 speed b bodys that have "650" car show horsepower and probably go bottom 13s or maybe 12s in good air

I am not surprised now by this . I had to pull 4 or 5 jets out of the front and maybe 2 rear when I went from 440ci to 505ci. Motor just works the carb harder especially if carburation is a little undersized .

Tex

PS : my 505 with a hair more comp and bit more cam makes 600-620 FWHP . With a 4150 carb , mufflers and exhaust to diff . I am not sure this one will go too much more .

Because lean is Mean................!

Makes sense, in that I'd suspect that whomever is in charge of the calibration for those carbs probably isn't told the intended application is 500 cubes making 600++ HP. Yeah, the bigger engine would create more signal than the carb was originally tuned for, whereas a too-big carb would need to be richer to crutch the lack of signal.

You're right. That way I can ask Chuck more questions and not derail this thread, as well as add my own "before" data and "after" predictions based on my latest engine dyno results.

Ya, mean on rings, pistons and bearings............

I was going to say something along the same lines, but ya' treed me.

.[/quote]
Makes sense, in that I'd suspect that whomever is in charge of the calibration for those carbs probably isn't told the intended application is 500 cubes making 600++ HP. Yeah, the bigger engine would create more signal than the carb was originally tuned for, whereas a too-big carb would need to be richer to crutch the lack of signal. [/quote]

Spot on Brad , the too rich I encountered with the Modman and 440ci . Seen it a few times on the dyno , raw fuel/black smoke but AFR showing lean .

Tex

Makes sense, in that I'd suspect that whomever is in charge of the calibration for those carbs probably isn't told the intended application is 500 cubes making 600++ HP. Yeah, the bigger engine would create more signal than the carb was originally tuned for, whereas a too-big carb would need to be richer to crutch the lack of signal. [/quote]

Spot on Brad , the too rich I encountered with the Modman and 440ci . Seen it a few times on the dyno , raw fuel/black smoke but AFR showing lean .

Tex [/quote]

NO outta the box carb will be ideal for YOUR application at least not any that I've heard or seen.....

Spot on Brad , the too rich I encountered with the Modman and 440ci . Seen it a few times on the dyno , raw fuel/black smoke but AFR showing lean .

Tex [/quote]

NO outta the box carb will be ideal for YOUR application at least not any that I've heard or seen..... [/quote]

You got that Dom
June is off season , so then i will set up intakes to try dominator and modman again

Tex

Thanks for the replies.Sorry for no update there was a problem with the dyno so he cancelled. I've been trying to line up something else and I find out today if Saturday is a go. Beyond that I will not have time and will be forced to put it in the car without doing the dyno thing.

It's kind of a weird combo, I did it this way to limit it to 10.0's in my 3340lb car. Staying safe with pump gas is important to me as race gas is $20+/ gallon up here, and I make 300+ passes a year. Down the road I can crank it up to go faster.

Either way I will update with results when I get them.

Great, Hope it works out for you this weekend. From Chucks post I under estimated the new combo it seems. You probably should be good on your current goals with this engine and more in it easily when you are ready.

So I gave up on the dyno thing and bolted it in my car. It ran today, sounds mean. I will post performance when the weather starts to cooperate. Supposed to be at Pacific on the 18th but it snowed here today so we'll see. Thanks.

I finally got some runs on the car.Best run so far is a 9.82 at 134.5 but I'm running out of gear at 1100 feet so I have to make a gear change.It's going to go in the 70's at 136 when I get it all ironed out I'm sure.

https://youtu.be/WHi2FmarXe4

Is 3340 the weight with driver? If so then you are making more than 650 hp. That is a little better than I was thinking with those parts. The heads must be pretty good even though they were not ported. Looks like a fun ride. You'll need some wheelie bars if you port the heads! Is the car legal for 9's?

that is 1 cool launch....3340@134.5, I make it 667flyhp those heads are better than I thought...136 will be 687

The car is 3340 with me in it, but in this video it had a 60lb weight under the front bumper to keep the front end down and it ran a 9.86! I have since got adjustable front shocks and it has allowed me to take the weight out and it runs 9.82 all day. The car is legal and I got licensed in it as well so I'm good to run it out.I'm sure there is more in it when I get it to pull past 1100 feet.With my current gears it wants to go through the traps at 6800 which is too many rpm's for this combo.My original plan was to run 10.0 so I didn't have to license, but now that's all shot to hell I will probably port the heads this winter and put a bigger cam in to see how fast it will go. No sissy sticks for me, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Ox077nCq0

The way that car is running I don't think I'd go crazy with a bigger cam. Get the heads ported and see how she does and then maybe add a little bit of cam. The problem with changing the cam a bunch is then it moves the torque curve and then you might need a different torque converter or different gears. Looks to me like you have that car really dialed in just as it sits. It launches hard and runs great.

Thanks Andy! The first 1000 feet is spectacular! 1.304 60 foot, 109.5 at the 1/8th but it stops accelerating at 1000’ so I’m trying different converters to get the tightest one I can find and then I’m going to have to do a gear change. My feeling is to should go a high 60 or low 70 at 136. I’m pretty happy with it, its deadly consistentl too. I built it to limit myself to 10.0’s so now I’m past that and legal I will want to go as fast as I can to make it all worth it. Lol

Way cool and great running car.........

IMHO you have the perfect combo, don't mess with it . Runs very consistant, low rpm, should be very reliable!!! If you want to go faster, look to removing weight rather than changing the motor or rpm you run. Guess why i think this way?

Makes sense, in that I'd suspect that whomever is in charge of the calibration for those carbs probably isn't told the intended application is 500 cubes making 600++ HP. Yeah, the bigger engine would create more signal than the carb was originally tuned for, whereas a too-big carb would need to be richer to crutch the lack of signal. [/quote]

Spot on Brad , the too rich I encountered with the Modman and 440ci . Seen it a few times on the dyno , raw fuel/black smoke but AFR showing lean .

Tex[/quote]


Probably because it was misfiring. If it missed or half fired, all the oxygen that should have been used up during combustion but didn't goes roaring out the exhaust and right by the O2 sensor which has no choice but to do its job.

Kevin

M


Like Greg said concentrate on making the car lighter while still keeping it simple. Man you guys in other countries race fat cars. Even your A Body’s are heavy.

I thought about it some more and it might be cheaper and easier to do a cam change than a gear change. If you had a little bit larger cam then it will pull all the way to the stripe and you won't need to change the rear gear. You probably have enough data now to sit down with a cam guy and talk it over. My guess is that you need another 5 degrees of duration at 0.050 to pull to the stripe but if it was me I'd run it by Dwayne to see what he says.

I like to over cam and my low 6 mid 9 second street driven Dart runs a .680-.660 Isky solid roller w/276-281 @ .050 w/standard port window home ported RPM heads at 12.1.1 comp and it's perfectly street-able and makes ok power...........I agree, step that puppy up..........

This is a nice package altogether, thanks for chronicling. It's probably as good a 'bang for the buck' as any mopar. I'm guessing Indy rockers?... and well within the limitations of those. I was kinda surprised of the performance but hearing the heads are better than they used to be helps clear things up.

T&D rockers

If it was my decision on your parts I would send the heads out this coming winter and have them CNC ported and have the 2.25 intake valves installed to allow more RPM from then on
Are you sure it isn't running out of fuel at the 1000 mark?
I've seen so many drag cars( of all brands ) that have those issue with no other signs of lost of fuel delivery
If you can't jet it up enough to slow the MPH down in the 1/4 mile your running out of fuel, not fuel pressure, fuel volume
One of my newer Holley HP 1050 Dominator carb. had one .110 needle and seat in the front or rear and the other one was a .120 seat, I could not jet that carb. up enough at the 1/4 mile track to slow my old pump gas Duster down Once I changed it to .120 on both fuel bowls I could
Lots of gremlins out there

I don’t think it’s fuel related I have an Innovate AFR gauge and its in the low 12’s and consistent. With the small cam its a torque combination and it drops off after 5900RPM. I’m at 67-6800. If I shift 1-2 and 2-3 at 5800 it ET’s the same as shifting at 6500 but shifting at the lower RPM makes the top end even worse because I’m not as far down the track.

Is the engine laying over before the 1320 like the valve train is going unstable at the RPM required to run it out? I wouldn't think it should be falling on its face above 6000 unless there is "something" wrong at higher RPM.

Are you recording the AFR ratio across the full RPM range? If so, do the AFR #s go wonky around the same time as the engine stops pulling hard?

From what I recall your cam was 265/270 @ 050 with not much lift. Something in the mid 0.500 range? So that could be just a tad small for the cubic inches and RPM. Since the car is running really good I might stay with the same lobe family and just go up one or two sizes on the cam. But other people have good suggestions on checking for adequate fuel pressure at the top end. You hate to spend a bunch of time and money changing the cam then find out you have clogged fuel filter or something like that. I'd think that cam would pull to 7000 but perhaps it is just running out of air. That is where the dyno sheets would've been a big help.

If the plugs show to be rich in the low 12's, I'd lean that puppy out accordingly based on fuel and hang on. With some motors I've worked w/and know about, to a point leaner is meaner and I went faster in the 12.8-13.0 zone than at 12.2's. I've seen dyno pulls of some serious all out n/a motors where max power was in the mid 13's and leaner in some cases...........

I saw this old post and I thought I'd update it just for fun. It would rev up to 7K fast with no problems, but I was only at 1000'. The block was a 400 block I had sonic tested and passed, it had a Hughes girdle and billet steel caps but a bore still cracked after very few runs (after driving 13 hours to the ET Finals no less). So I got another block and half filled it this time and went to a Bullet 277@ .050 .640 lift cam and everything else the same. T&D 1.5 rockers. It was 60 footing 1.28's and was making it almost to the end but I still didn't want to rev it that high. Best ET was 9.77 at 134.60. Keep in mind the air here is very good, in the spring and fall it can go down to -126 feet D.A. It was a bit of an animal with the 4.56's so I went to 4.10's. 60' slowed to a 1.30 but with a new best of 9.62 at 136.6! Then in late 2019 I managed to get my hands on a new Callies 440 block. I tried to sell the low deck complete carb to pan and start over but it had a high price tag because it was all fresh so I didn't find a buyer. I ended up selling just the bare short block so I could reuse mostly everything except the intake on the new RB block. Built the RB pretty much the same, Molnar crank, Molnar Chevy rods, ICON pistons 512cu in. (4.375"x 4.25") I was going to try and get it in the car for the last couple of races but I got the heads on before I realized how far off the new intake ports were and I ran out of time. The new block is upwards of 100lbs heavier so I expect it will run a bit slower but I'll update again when I run it. Thanks for the replies and advice.

So I never got to run the Callies block in the car last year. The new RB intake had considerably larger ports than the unported -1 heads so over the winter I matched both to the gasket and did a light porting, more of a blend, and I took a bit out of the guide boss area. I did quite a bit of work to the 4500 intake to match it to a 1" tapered 4 hole spacer. It's too bad I didn't get to dyno the low deck because it would have been neat to compare it to the RB with almost all identical parts. Same cubic inch, same compression, same cam. Heads are probably a bit better than they were, the RB intake has longer, straighter runners than the low deck intake. The block is more stable, bores are thicker so they stay rounder, but I doubt any of that would show up on a dyno. Feb 17 I'm supposed to be on the dyno with it, different guy than last time so it should be a go. Update on the combo- Callies RB block 4.375"x4.25" 10.5:1,Lightly ported Indy -1's and Indy 4500 intake, Bullet 277@ .050" .640 lift, EDM lifters, 1.5 T&D rockers, Pro systems 1150 Dominator. I'll update when it happens!

Thanks for the update. I'll be interested in the dyno numbers.

I genuinely wish you luck if that's a flat tappet. I'd move to a milder solid roller combo which will pick you up. You mentioned head work but, did you ever have a good valvejob done? That will hep the -1's.

I bought the cam and lifters in 2018 and they have been broken in (in another block) so they should be fine. The EDM lifters really help too. I won't run a roller because I make a lot of passes in a year and I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone lose a race or not show up for a round because of a broken roller lifter. The valves were done by Best Machine when I bought the heads.

Got it done today! The dyno owner/operator considers his dyno to be on the stingy side for what it's worth. We didn't flog it, just made a few pulls to break everything in, make sure fuel was good and get a number. It's still a bit lean, and it will get leaner in the car with the hood air working so I will be jetting it up when I run it. I have an Innovate AFR in the car so I can tune that at the track. I'm happy with it, a little surprised it dropped off so early I suppose there's no point in shifting at 6600 or 6700. I hope my attachment worked.

Give that thing some fuel and run it to 7000!

Looks like the dyno was running out of fuel. Hopefully running that lean didn't damage your engine.

He warned me his AFR wasn't working right ahead of time so I had my innovate on it as well which doesn't show on the sheets. It was reading 12.9-13.9 and that was verified by watching the plugs as well.

Did you make any pulls higher than 6400?

On the sheet you posted, the highest hp number is on the last line.

No that's as far as we went. I didn't see any point as it had already peaked. Should we have gone higher?

Can you post or list your AFR with the RPM, AFR and RPM?
Some testing needs to be done in the car, my E85 motor ran 2.5 MPH faster in the 1/4 mile shifting the 2 speed tranny at 7300 RPM versus shifting it at 7000 RPM, every other part of the time slip was almost identical, within .0002 ET, up to the 1000 ft clocks

Getting a data log of your rpm during the run may surprise you . My torqueflite takes at least 200rpm to complete a shift
, so the actual shift point was more than 250 rpm higher than my Conmand Center shift setting. If you are shifting by a tack light, then add delay to that, raising rpm even more. All in all you have a very good combo going hear! Congratulations on a great build. From my history, if i had your combo, i would be leary of any changes that threaten your consistancy, if you desire ro go rounds.

700 with OOTB -1's and a low lift Solid Flat tappet to me seems pretty impressive!

Originally, I was going to go with -1's when the Chapman MW deal kinda fell into my lap.

Your motor and cam is very similar to my 517 (I run a Bullet HR with 264/268 @.050) but what is your ICL?

Your torque is nice and flat....over 600 throughout nearly your entire pull.

I might have revved it 500 past peak, just to see how quickly it fell off and maybe richened the jettting a tad to be safe. But then again, where you peaked is about where I would have expected and from graphing the torque drop off you can pretty much predict it. A bit more intake lift with a -1 might squeaked out a bit more torque but it still a nice power curve.

Congrats, IMO 700 without a lot of RPM and basically pump gas compression is the way to go for a long-lasting bracket motor. no sense chasing the last bit of HP if it takes raising the torque peak higher and stressing the block further.

Being a consistent round winning durable combination is what I'm after that's why we didn't flog it looking for every last HP. It's a Callies block so I'm not worried about the block and eventually I can and will go bigger, higher compression and a big roller cam eventually. Needless to say I'm pretty happy with it and I will do some more fine tuning when I have it in the car.Thanks!