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#2446244 - 02/04/18 11:58 AM Interesting analysis of Tesla.........
DaveRS23 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
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Loc: Benton, IL.


Edited by DaveRS23 (02/04/18 11:59 AM)
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#2446258 - 02/04/18 12:24 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Not_A_Duster Offline
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 7507
Loc: SK. Canada
I usually get annoyed at being forced to watch 10 minutes of video where I could have read the same information in 3 minutes.

But that was worth the time spent.

I would like to know more about the credentials of the speaker, however....what he has accomplished. He certainly seems to have it in for Musk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhMnQCAU658


Edited by Not_A_Duster (02/04/18 12:29 PM)
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#2446304 - 02/04/18 01:30 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Grizzly Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Nothing to see there except another jealous individual that wishes they were the Winner in the electric car business and living Elon's life. What else is new?

In other news, a 48 volt assist system coming in the new Ram. Apparently 11% increase in fuel mileage.....so about 2 mpg better in a full-size half-ton.

Because, this electric stuff is not the future and really has no place in a segment that moves 600,000 units a year. The Big 3 always get it wrong smirk

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#2446314 - 02/04/18 01:56 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
tahoechallenge Offline
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Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 305
Loc: Kings Beach, CA
I am excited to see the Tesla semi truck. If the performance is accurate it will be a game changer. I drive a Freightliner service truck in the Sierra Nevada mountains everyday. I can only go about 50 mph on a 6 percent grade. Most of the other loaded trucks can only go about 45 mph. Tesla claims that their truck will pull 6 percent grades at 65 mph! If that is true the trucking industry will change overnight. No one likes getting their doors blown off!

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#2446341 - 02/04/18 02:23 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13430
Originally Posted By Grizzly
Nothing to see there except another jealous individual that wishes they were the Winner in the electric car business and living Elon's life. What else is new?

In other news, a 48 volt assist system coming in the new Ram. Apparently 11% increase in fuel mileage.....so about 2 mpg better in a full-size half-ton.

Because, this electric stuff is not the future and really has no place in a segment that moves 600,000 units a year. The Big 3 always get it wrong smirk



Electric cars are not being done because the Big 3 want to do them. They are being mandated by government decree and we all know what winners the government picks, the ones who win in last place.

As PT Barnum is supposed to have said "There's a sucker born every minute".

Or as Lincoln is supposed to have observed "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

As of right now, it's a niche market. Things may change one the perennial battery issues are solved, ones that have been there for over 100 years now. Range and recharge time.

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#2446479 - 02/04/18 05:39 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: tahoechallenge]
hooziewhatsit Offline
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
That was an interesting video.

"The money followed the investment." Guess we'll see how long they need to invest before they start making the money wink

Although like he says Amazon didn't make money until they released AWS, Tesla is becoming more of an energy company. The battery in Australia made its owners a million dollars over a few days a few weeks ago. Now they're planning a huge distributed solar & storage system in Australia, that will no doubt pay for itself through lower electricity prices.

Originally Posted By tahoechallenge
I am excited to see the Tesla semi truck. If the performance is accurate it will be a game changer. I drive a Freightliner service truck in the Sierra Nevada mountains everyday. I can only go about 50 mph on a 6 percent grade. Most of the other loaded trucks can only go about 45 mph. Tesla claims that their truck will pull 6 percent grades at 65 mph! If that is true the trucking industry will change overnight. No one likes getting their doors blown off!


And coming down the other side it will recharge too! How many miles do you drive in an average day?

I saw an interesting quote the other day in an article about electricity prices in the early 2020's. "The only thing more powerful than partisanship in the US is money."

When EVs are cheap enough, good enough, and lower the cost of ownership enough, they'll sell themselves.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

Yea, the title focuses on emissions, but going electric also cut the cost of operation by 80%! If your competitors have their cost lowered by that much, you're going to lose unless you catch up.
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#2446480 - 02/04/18 05:41 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Grizzly Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 4900
Loc: at work
Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents

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#2446502 - 02/04/18 06:11 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
Not_A_Duster Offline
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 7507
Loc: SK. Canada
Originally Posted By Grizzly
Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents



From the bit of research I've done since this was posted, the "old windbag" knows more about the flow of money and the viability of business than either you or me. I would be more inclined to follow his advice than yours if I was looking to make a direct investment. I've looked back a bit at some of his history, and he has seemed to be right on the money far more often than not.

Now my own impression of Elon Musk has always been that he is primarily a slimy con-man on a grand scale....so maybe my perspective is being a bit skewed by that. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Assuming the Marxists who are driving this EV revolution win the day and you won't be given the choice to buy fuel for your old Mopar....you are okay with that?

I assume you own one? Will you be content to keep it as a garage ornament, never able to use it again?

Because never forget: the end game here is the total elimination of fossil fuels and our access to it, in order to collapse the resource based economy, crippling free markets.



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#2446505 - 02/04/18 06:16 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
NewbombTurkk Offline
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Registered: 01/31/03
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[quote=Grizzly]Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents

[/quote


The only people who want to shift from big oil are rich investors with an agenda looking for the taxpayer teat.........electric cars are a fad for yuppie treehuggers and bored trust fund activists who cannot figure out that fossil fuels or nuclear is recharging their overpriced junk.

Wind and solar are also unfeasible unless Uncle Sam is footing the bill or it isa scam (see Solyndra under Barry).

Environmental engineer here for 28 years who has some common sense. The US has enough nat gas and oil here to last for centuries.......both of which burn ultra clean now. So quit trying to take cheap transportation away from the next generation under the guise of clean air or man made warming.......

Sad but I have seen the evolution of the EPA in 1990 issuing the clean air act updates to the right wing political tool as it is today. It happened mainly with bush and then Barry escalated it to a new low. Uber rich donors with agendas now make their own EPA policy with blatant disregard for jobs or the environment it is supposed to protect.

I've been in LA recently and there is no buffet brown LA haze anymore nor is the Cuyahoga River ablaze. Electric cars will never be feasible on their own...period.
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#2446526 - 02/04/18 06:50 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
Spaceman Spiff Offline
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Registered: 11/28/10
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Loc: jersey
Originally Posted By Grizzly
Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents



How much Tesla stock have you purchased?
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#2446535 - 02/04/18 07:10 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: NewbombTurkk]
hooziewhatsit Offline
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Originally Posted By NewbombTurkk
Wind and solar are also unfeasible unless Uncle Sam is footing the bill or it isa scam (see Solyndra under Barry).


So we have enough Natural Gas for "centuries". Then what? All that energy originally came from the sun. Why don't we just use the sun's energy directly?

Here's a quote from the article I linked above.

Quote:
The latest is Jim Robo, CEO of NextEra Energy, a giant energy company with subsidiaries that include Florida Power & Light (America’s third-largest utility, with 4.8 million customers) and NextEra Energy Resources, which boasts of being “the world’s largest generator of renewable energy from the wind and sun.”
On a Q4 earnings conference call on Friday, Robo predicted that by the early 2020s, it will be cheaper to build new renewables than to continue running existing coal and nuclear plants. That’s ... crazy.
This wasn’t some aspirational post on the company blog, either; it was a call with investors, to whom Robo is legally beholden. And it comes on the heels of other mind-boggling news from the utility sector, like a solicitation for energy bids in Colorado that turned up renewables+storage projects that will come within striking distance of existing coal plants by the early 2020s.
Let’s take a look at the startling numbers Robo mentioned and then dig a little deeper into his comments.
First, the headline numbers. Here are the costs Robo anticipates “early in the next decade”:
Unsubsidized new wind: 2.0-2.5 cents per kilowatt-hour
Unsubsidized new solar: 3.0-4.0 cents per kilowatt-hour
Variable operating costs of existing coal or nuclear plants: 3.5-5.0 cents per kilowatt-hour

If those predictions hold up, it is game over for coal (and nuclear, unless it gets support based on its low carbon emissions, as in New York). No one will ever build another coal plant in America, and the ones still running would likely shut down sooner than scheduled.


Unless you're willing to pay more on your power bill so you can get your power from Fossil Fuels, renewables are coming, because they're cheaper.
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#2446536 - 02/04/18 07:14 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Not_A_Duster]
Guitar Jones Offline
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Registered: 12/18/09
Posts: 9823
Loc: in a cattle trailer down by th...
Originally Posted By Not_A_Duster
Originally Posted By Grizzly
Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents



From the bit of research I've done since this was posted, the "old windbag" knows more about the flow of money and the viability of business than either you or me. I would be more inclined to follow his advice than yours if I was looking to make a direct investment. I've looked back a bit at some of his history, and he has seemed to be right on the money far more often than not.

Now my own impression of Elon Musk has always been that he is primarily a slimy con-man on a grand scale....so maybe my perspective is being a bit skewed by that. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Assuming the Marxists who are driving this EV revolution win the day and you won't be given the choice to buy fuel for your old Mopar....you are okay with that?

I assume you own one? Will you be content to keep it as a garage ornament, never able to use it again?

Because never forget: the end game here is the total elimination of fossil fuels and our access to it, in order to collapse the resource based economy, crippling free markets.





Gasoline engines will run on alcohol, diesel engines will run on vegetable oil. Who needs fossil fuels?
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#2446555 - 02/04/18 07:50 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Grizzly]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13430
Originally Posted By Grizzly
Uh huh.

We'll see "niche market" 10 years from now.

Go ahead, be close-minded to an obviously wanted shift away from Big Oil.

You'll look real smart just like the Old Windbag in the video who wishes he bought Tesla stock. twocents



Nothing more sanctimonious than a true believer.

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#2446568 - 02/04/18 08:25 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: hooziewhatsit]
NewbombTurkk Offline
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Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 3814
Loc: West Virginia
Originally Posted By hooziewhatsit
Originally Posted By NewbombTurkk
Wind and solar are also unfeasible unless Uncle Sam is footing the bill or it isa scam (see Solyndra under Barry).


So we have enough Natural Gas for "centuries". Then what? All that energy originally came from the sun. Why don't we just use the sun's energy directly?

Here's a quote from the article I linked above.

Quote:
The latest is Jim Robo, CEO of NextEra Energy, a giant energy company with subsidiaries that include Florida Power & Light (America’s third-largest utility, with 4.8 million customers) and NextEra Energy Resources, which boasts of being “the world’s largest generator of renewable energy from the wind and sun.”
On a Q4 earnings conference call on Friday, Robo predicted that by the early 2020s, it will be cheaper to build new renewables than to continue running existing coal and nuclear plants. That’s ... crazy.
This wasn’t some aspirational post on the company blog, either; it was a call with investors, to whom Robo is legally beholden. And it comes on the heels of other mind-boggling news from the utility sector, like a solicitation for energy bids in Colorado that turned up renewables+storage projects that will come within striking distance of existing coal plants by the early 2020s.
Let’s take a look at the startling numbers Robo mentioned and then dig a little deeper into his comments.
First, the headline numbers. Here are the costs Robo anticipates “early in the next decade”:
Unsubsidized new wind: 2.0-2.5 cents per kilowatt-hour
Unsubsidized new solar: 3.0-4.0 cents per kilowatt-hour
Variable operating costs of existing coal or nuclear plants: 3.5-5.0 cents per kilowatt-hour

If those predictions hold up, it is game over for coal (and nuclear, unless it gets support based on its low carbon emissions, as in New York). No one will ever build another coal plant in America, and the ones still running would likely shut down sooner than scheduled.


Unless you're willing to pay more on your power bill so you can get your power from Fossil Fuels, renewables are coming, because they're cheaper.



Renewables are cheaper? Then where are they? That statement shows your level of acumen on the topic as a whole. For a large spread out country like the US, fossil fuels is all we have that are feasible...until something else comes along that the bottom 99.9 percent can afford, keep dreaming and hugging that maple.
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#2446692 - 02/05/18 12:31 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Guitar Jones]
hooziewhatsit Offline
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Originally Posted By NewbombTurkk
Renewables are cheaper? Then where are they? That statement shows your level of acumen on the topic as a whole. For a large spread out country like the US, fossil fuels is all we have that are feasible...until something else comes along that the bottom 99.9 percent can afford, keep dreaming and hugging that maple.


My level of acumen is based on facts, not feelings laugh2

Open this, and scroll down to the first chart on page 2 of the document. What do you see for costs of coal and nat gas versus utility scale solar? Obviously you should do your due diligence on their numbers.
https://www.lazard.com/media/450337/lazard-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-110.pdf

Rome wasn't built overnight. It's only been the last few years that renewables have scaled enough that their prices have dropped significantly. The article I quoted above is talking about the early 2020's, so call it 5 years from now. These installs take time to plan and build (just like FF plants). It's no real surprise that now that prices are low, that it will be a few more years until they really show up.

There is currently 20GW of wind installed in Texas (or ~12% of their usage). By the end of this year, there will probably be more wind capacity than coal capacity in Texas.

-------------

As for Tesla and their business model, I recognize that their books don't look great when viewed through the lens of a traditional company. But, they aren't a traditional company. They have very long term goals, and their investors realize that.

Originally Posted By Guitar Jones
Gasoline engines will run on alcohol, diesel engines will run on vegetable oil. Who needs fossil fuels?

Good point laugh2
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#2446747 - 02/05/18 08:50 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: hooziewhatsit]
DaveRS23 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4682
Loc: Benton, IL.
Originally Posted By hooziewhatsit
[quote=NewbombTurkk]

Quote:
[b][/b]
If those predictions hold up, it is game over for coal (and nuclear, unless it gets support based on its low carbon emissions, as in New York). No one will ever build another coal plant in America, and the ones still running would likely shut down sooner than scheduled.


Unless you're willing to pay more on your power bill so you can get your power from Fossil Fuels, renewables are coming, because they're cheaper.


Why doesn't Japan see it that way?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-01-31/japan-coal-power-plants/8224302
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#2446755 - 02/05/18 09:09 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Rhinodart Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 36486
Loc: Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Because they had a China Syndrome recently... eek
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#2446855 - 02/05/18 11:33 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Rhinodart]
hooziewhatsit Offline
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Originally Posted By Rhinodart
Because they had a China Syndrome recently... eek

Yep, knee-jerk reactions are rarely rational. The problem with Fukashima isn't so much Nuclear, as it is having the backup generators under ground in a flood/Tsunami zone.

In related nuclear news, Nuscale doesn't have to comply with regulations that aren't applicable to their design, which is a pretty huge deal.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/small-n...-system/514470/
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#2446882 - 02/05/18 12:18 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
a12rag Offline
top fuel

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Calgary, Alberta Canada
as was mentioned, it takes a prime mover force of some kind to turn a generator to product electricity . . . boil water for steam - need heat from "something" - coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear. Hydroelectric - build a dam and use force of water, or "run of river". Wind - build EXPENSIVE turbines all over the windy place (but wind does not always blow!) . . .

There is a base level of generation needed and then a "peak" amount for the huge demands at certain times . . .

Check out thorium nuclear . . . it is safe, not requiring huge infrastructure for cooling, and will shut off in emergency !!! Admiral Rickover is reason we have the water cooled reactors, that produce plutonium which is used in nuclear weapons ! Thorium reactors do not produce weapons waste, also the time for waste products is 100 of years, versus thousands !!

With thorium producing electricity, then take COAL (yes I said it), which in north America we have over a 500 year supply ! And make synthetic fuel . . . cutting off the middle east !! No money spent with foreign countries that want to kill us . . . see how OPEC does with that !!! . . .

But the politicians obfuscate the reality of it all, because of their agenda, or their donors agenda . . . we are all just the great unwashed masses that have no say in changing it . . .

ok, rant off . . . . but I do agree with the youtube . . . Tesla and Musk are only really good at getting government funding !! Take that all away, and Tesla goes bye bye . . . selling cars that are over $100k, AND STILL CAN'T MAKE MONEY !!! . . . ???????

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#2446941 - 02/05/18 01:56 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
NewbombTurkk Offline
master

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 3814
Loc: West Virginia
Tesla/Musk: Give donations in order to get TAX dollars free, ie....JOKE

Solyndra: Fake solar panel company received 100's of millions of TAX dollars...Bigger Joke.

Local Sheetz Store with 8 Tesla charging poles: I made a comment to the manager about never seeing a car plugged up. He said they had to build them or lose out on a TAX credit of some kind. I guess they make good pigeon roosts.

Corn-a-hol additive to gas: TAX dollars to ethanol makers in the Midwest...EVEN THOUGH it takes more BTU's to make ethanol that it actually contributes to your car.......A REAL BIG JOKE....but EPA mandated?????? The carbon footprint to make the ethanol is bigger than just burning straight fuel......duh?

NUCLEAR: by far the cleanest energy source, at least feasible one, left. Tree huggers with bad hygiene have unfortunately made sure that no more nuke plants will be built in the US.....even though we had a place called Yucca Mt to store 500 yrs worth of spent rods.

R-12 to R-134A: HHMMMMMM.......the patent is getting ready to expire on R-12, so maybe we can buy off the EPA to all of a sudden find R-12 to cause huge ozone layer holes...and replace it with our NEW formula, R-134A!!!!! Chemical properties being nearly identical not be considered!!!

Looks like decisions are really made with common sense and the environmental impact first!! Lets build a 100K car that nobody wants or can afford!


Edited by NewbombTurkk (02/05/18 01:58 PM)
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#2447234 - 02/05/18 10:20 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
AndyF Online   content
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
I drive an electric car on a daily basis (Leaf). It is a very handy way to buzz around town. I run errands in it during the day and then plug it into the wall at night and it is ready to go again in the morning. It is a super cheap and very clever little car.

I do not know the "big picture" economics of electric cars. I don't know if they make economic sense or if they actually reduce pollution. There is a lot of "fake news" on electric cars and I really don't know who to trust on the subject.

At a personal economic level the Leaf is a win for me. It was very cheap to buy, it is very cheap to operate and maintenance is almost zero. No oil changes, brakes last a long time, no visits to the gas station, no exhaust system to rust out, simple drivetrain, simple cooling system, etc.

I figure the big picture stuff will sort out over time. Perhaps the whole industry is a scam, I really don't know. But for now I'm enjoying some very inexpensive transportation.

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#2447236 - 02/05/18 10:31 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
a12rag Offline
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Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Calgary, Alberta Canada
I have a company car that I log my miles on every day . . . I can say that most of my trips are around 30-50miles a day, well within the range of most electric cars . . . BUT, I also do long trips of up to 1000miles . . . so do I rent a gas powered vehicle for those trips ???

AndyF makes good point - there are inexpensive used electric cars out there for intended usage of low mileage trips. Sure the recharging is cheap, but as mentioned, the electricity has to be generated somehow. . . also, how does the government get tax money from electricity for the infrastructure, the way they do from gas and diesel ???

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#2447241 - 02/05/18 10:50 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
hooziewhatsit Offline
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Click to open this in a larger window.
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/images/2015/11/vehicles-m-emissions-map-with-notes.jpg

Using realistic power mixes depending on the region of the country they're in, EVs emit are quite a bit cleaner than ICEs when you compare the tailpipe of the ICE and the long-tailpipe of the EV. In the dirtiest grid, an EV has the same emissions as an ICE that gets 35mpg. In the Northwest US, an ICE would need to get 94mpg to match the emissions from the average EV.

Plus, it moves that pollution out of populated cities to fixed power plants where it's easier to implement and maintain pollution controls. And, as the grid gets cleaner (because it's cheaper), the EVs also get cleaner.

a12, most every state (in the US, I imagine CA is similar) has a special registration tax for EVs to cover the lost revenues from gas taxes. So don't think they're getting away with not paying anything. (Yes, it's a flat rate, so some win, and some lose. Cue cries of "it's not fair" lol).

Your comment about 1000 mile road trips is a legitimate problem right now. In a few more years as EVs gain more range and faster charging, it will get a lot better than it is currently. Then again, the current cannonball record for an EV is around 50 hours (to drive 3000 miles from LA to NY).

The first cell phone had 30 minutes of talk time, and needed 10 hours to recharge. Not usable for most people, but it improved to what we have today. EVs will be the same.

Edit: I found the updated chart: https://cdn.blog.ucsusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014-map_blog_5.19-1024x749.jpg


Edited by hooziewhatsit (02/06/18 12:50 AM)
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#2447246 - 02/05/18 11:06 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: a12rag]
Greenwood Offline
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Registered: 09/27/17
Posts: 44
Loc: Red Deer, Alberta
Charging will always remain an issue. Take busy gas station that fuels 2000 cars per day, at 5 minutes per fill. To handle the same number of customers recharging electrics would require 4-6 times the number of "pumps" that a gas station requires. You cannot assume that everyone can charge at home 100% of the time. Conversely, if you ramp up the charging flow to equal the time frame of pumping gas, you will require specialized and expensive charging equipment. At some point, the use of the charging stations will require substantially higher fees.
Now, look at trucks. Take a current 80-100,000 lb rolling combo. First off, you have to reduce your payload by 20-25% to account for the battery. That means you need 20% more trucks, drivers, insurance, tires, and so forth to move the same amount of ton/miles of freight per month.
Now, let's assume you have a freight operation that allows your trucks to be in your yard every night. (Think LA-Frisco, or LA-SLC). Even if you have a 12 hour charging cycle, each truck requires the equivalent power draw of several dozen households. Let's call it 100 average houses, just to be safe. If you have 30 trucks to charge, you're drawing the equivalent power of a town of 7500, every night. How much does that substation, plus the specialized charging equipment, cost. Factoring in the additional trucks required, how long does it take to amortize your fuel savings?
Charging remains the big hurdle. For a lot of people, electrics make lots of sense, especially in two-car households. But I'll stick to my hypothesis that they will remain a notch above a niche product for quite some time.

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#2447278 - 02/06/18 01:50 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
hooziewhatsit Offline
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Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
The average passenger car EV uses ~350watt-hours/mile. Assuming 50 miles a day, charged every night, that's 17kwh/night (or $2.04 @ 12c/kwh).

Looking at California right now, they have a 8GW spread between night time low and daytime high. With another 10GW of available capacity over the daytime high.

(kind of neat charts here: http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html)

Someone please check my math, but 8GW of capacity divided by 17kw is 470 thousand cars.

This assumes that each of those 470k cars plugs in at 3am and charges at 17kw for one hour. So the load on the grid spikes to the daytime high for one hour, then goes back down to the normal night time load.

Of course, that isn't realistic.

Let's assume that 17kw is drawn over 5 hours, for an average of 3.4kw/hour. Now the grid can support 2.3 million EVs overnight (8GW/3.4kw). Still leaving the extra 10GW of reserve capacity over the daytime peak.

The Tesla semi is expected to have no bigger than a 1MWh battery (but probably a bit lower). Assuming a 5 hour charge time, that's 200kw over 5 hours. Or, 40,000 trucks that each drove the full 500 miles the previous day.

Or, they can charge during the day and soak up cheap solar power.

Thanks for making me crunch the numbers. I have no doubt that the current grid, tonight, can handle as many cars as we can throw at it, especially if we incentivize it with Time Of Use charging.
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If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#2447295 - 02/06/18 06:35 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: hooziewhatsit]
Spaceman Spiff Offline
master

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 3248
Loc: jersey
Originally Posted By hooziewhatsit
The average passenger car EV uses ~350watt-hours/mile. Assuming 50 miles a day, charged every night, that's 17kwh/night (or $2.04 @ 12c/kwh).

Looking at California right now, they have a 8GW spread between night time low and daytime high. With another 10GW of available capacity over the daytime high.

(kind of neat charts here: http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html)

Someone please check my math, but 8GW of capacity divided by 17kw is 470 thousand cars.

This assumes that each of those 470k cars plugs in at 3am and charges at 17kw for one hour. So the load on the grid spikes to the daytime high for one hour, then goes back down to the normal night time load.

Of course, that isn't realistic.

Let's assume that 17kw is drawn over 5 hours, for an average of 3.4kw/hour. Now the grid can support 2.3 million EVs overnight (8GW/3.4kw). Still leaving the extra 10GW of reserve capacity over the daytime peak.

The Tesla semi is expected to have no bigger than a 1MWh battery (but probably a bit lower). Assuming a 5 hour charge time, that's 200kw over 5 hours. Or, 40,000 trucks that each drove the full 500 miles the previous day.

Or, they can charge during the day and soak up cheap solar power.

Thanks for making me crunch the numbers. I have no doubt that the current grid, tonight, can handle as many cars as we can throw at it, especially if we incentivize it with Time Of Use charging.


Where do the people living in apartments, condos, or townhouses plug in their cars?
Not everyone has a driveway, and access to a plug...
But I guess the government will give “ incentives” for a company to install charging stations in every parking lot, and all along the curbside. How beautiful that will make the scenery. Get rid of all the trees lining the streets, for charging stations.
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#2447392 - 02/06/18 12:00 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
AndyF Online   content
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
I wouldn't buy a new EV but this Leaf was sitting on the used car lot for $8000 and it only had 20,000 miles on it so I grabbed it. It is a heck of a car for 8 grand. There aren't very many new cars that you can find for 8 grand with only 20K miles on them but the electric cars seem to depreciate like a rock.

I figured it was a super good buy and so far I've been right. I'm not into the politics of EV vs. ICE, in fact I spend most of my time working on big block stroker engines. I guess my point is that if people put aside all of the politics and just focus on what might be good for them, you might be surprised.

If you have a need for a second (or third) car in your house then a used EV might be a very good deal. It is a great car for a teen driver or a stay at home mom who runs a bunch of errands around town. Also a good car for retired folks to carry behind a motor home or something like that.

Cheap to buy, low maintenance, cheap to fill up, nice and small so you find parking spots, etc. You also get preferential treatment at some places such as HOV traffic lanes, up front parking at some places, etc.

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#2447423 - 02/06/18 12:46 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: AndyF]
oldjonny Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 1993
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By AndyF
I wouldn't buy a new EV but this Leaf was sitting on the used car lot for $8000 and it only had 20,000 miles on it so I grabbed it. It is a heck of a car for 8 grand. There aren't very many new cars that you can find for 8 grand with only 20K miles on them but the electric cars seem to depreciate like a rock.

I figured it was a super good buy and so far I've been right. I'm not into the politics of EV vs. ICE, in fact I spend most of my time working on big block stroker engines. I guess my point is that if people put aside all of the politics and just focus on what might be good for them, you might be surprised.

If you have a need for a second (or third) car in your house then a used EV might be a very good deal. It is a great car for a teen driver or a stay at home mom who runs a bunch of errands around town. Also a good car for retired folks to carry behind a motor home or something like that.

Cheap to buy, low maintenance, cheap to fill up, nice and small so you find parking spots, etc. You also get preferential treatment at some places such as HOV traffic lanes, up front parking at some places, etc.


I did a 2-year lease on one of the Mitsubishis when they were pushing them. Was a one pay, $2400 for 2 years. Local power company (read TAXPAYER SUBSIDY) paid for me adding the necessary charging station. Worked for what it was and got me 2 more years out of the Silverado that my wife was driving that was falling apart. Was it practical...No, not really. Was it cheap (since 'someone' was subsidizing it)....yup. Was I ready to go out and buy one....NOPE. Funny thing was, at the end of the least they tried to convince me to buy it....for $17K. Meanwhile, other ones that already had been turned in were selling for less than $10K and now are selling for WAY less than $10K.

Without the right conditions and the right amount of 'someone's' money being shoveled into the pit, they are not ready.
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#2447456 - 02/06/18 01:56 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: AndyF]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4682
Loc: Benton, IL.
Andy, the fact that you got such a bargain says a lot about these vehicles. EVs and hybrids are still a bit too nitchy for most of us. There is very little after-market support which means you are usually at the mercy of the manufacturer when it comes to parts and service after the warranty period.

I interact with new car dealerships on a regular basis and can tell you from first hand experience that they are generally weak on electrical diagnosis and repair. We are rural here and there is not an independent repair shop anywhere around that will touch one. So, one's only choice for service is the dealer. Not a pleasant thought.

There are some good bargains on these things if a person shops around. And for a few people in the right situation, that is good thing. But overall, it speaks to the limited marketability they actually have.

EVs may be the future, but that future is not today.
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#2448837 - 02/08/18 09:21 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
AndyF Online   content
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
Yeah I wouldn't drive an EV as my only car but it is the perfect 2nd or 3rd car. Maybe I'm lucky but I've had zero issues with mine. My wife and I use it all day long to run errands around town. I'll take it downtown Portland (40 mile round trip drive) if the battery if full but that is limit of how far I'll go. But 99% of the places I need to go during a regular day are within a 10 mile radius so it works for me. If I lived out in the boondocks then the car would be useless. A lot of the companies around here have charging stations at work so that doubles the range if you drive to work. I'd drive it 30 miles to work if I could charge up there.

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#2448917 - 02/08/18 11:46 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15315
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Elon Musk...


Attachments
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#2448920 - 02/08/18 11:51 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: AndyF]
hooziewhatsit Offline
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yeah I wouldn't drive an EV as my only car but it is the perfect 2nd or 3rd car. Maybe I'm lucky but I've had zero issues with mine. My wife and I use it all day long to run errands around town. I'll take it downtown Portland (40 mile round trip drive) if the battery if full but that is limit of how far I'll go. But 99% of the places I need to go during a regular day are within a 10 mile radius so it works for me. If I lived out in the boondocks then the car would be useless. A lot of the companies around here have charging stations at work so that doubles the range if you drive to work. I'd drive it 30 miles to work if I could charge up there.


What range is yours rated for (what year is it)? How would your usage change if it had 2 or 3 hundred miles per charge?
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If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#2449091 - 02/09/18 11:02 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Guitar Jones]
Not_A_Duster Offline
master

Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 7507
Loc: SK. Canada
Originally Posted By Guitar Jones


Gasoline engines will run on alcohol, diesel engines will run on vegetable oil. Who needs fossil fuels?


You don't actually think they would let you do that? That runs completely contrary to the social engineering that's behind all this.

Any alternative to the "plan" be that bio-fuels or carbon capture projects like the one we have here will not be tolerated. Freedom to make your own choices does not fit within the agenda.

As for the future of fuel alternatives:

https://www.producer.com/2018/02/milligan-biofuels-shuttered/

There was a lot of excitement about this plant and others 10-15 years ago.... then came the era of low-sulfur diesel fuels.
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#2449929 - 02/10/18 11:44 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: hooziewhatsit]
AndyF Online   content
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By hooziewhatsit
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yeah I wouldn't drive an EV as my only car but it is the perfect 2nd or 3rd car. Maybe I'm lucky but I've had zero issues with mine. My wife and I use it all day long to run errands around town. I'll take it downtown Portland (40 mile round trip drive) if the battery if full but that is limit of how far I'll go. But 99% of the places I need to go during a regular day are within a 10 mile radius so it works for me. If I lived out in the boondocks then the car would be useless. A lot of the companies around here have charging stations at work so that doubles the range if you drive to work. I'd drive it 30 miles to work if I could charge up there.


What range is yours rated for (what year is it)? How would your usage change if it had 2 or 3 hundred miles per charge?


Mine is a 2104 Leaf with a quote 84 mile range. Actual range is more like 60 miles in the real world where you have hills and are using the heater, headlights, stereo, etc.

If the real range was 200 miles then I'd use the car for longer trips. It is a small car so I probably wouldn't use it for really long trips even if it had a lot of range just because there isn't much room to haul stuff.


Edited by AndyF (02/10/18 11:44 PM)

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#2450122 - 02/11/18 12:49 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Not_A_Duster]
a12rag Offline
top fuel

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 2101
Loc: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Originally Posted By Not_A_Duster
Originally Posted By Guitar Jones


Gasoline engines will run on alcohol, diesel engines will run on vegetable oil. Who needs fossil fuels?


You don't actually think they would let you do that? That runs completely contrary to the social engineering that's behind all this.

Any alternative to the "plan" be that bio-fuels or carbon capture projects like the one we have here will not be tolerated. Freedom to make your own choices does not fit within the agenda.

As for the future of fuel alternatives:

https://www.producer.com/2018/02/milligan-biofuels-shuttered/

There was a lot of excitement about this plant and others 10-15 years ago.... then came the era of low-sulfur diesel fuels.


You nailed it on the head : SOCIAL ENGINEERING !!! . . . .As for Tesla, think the latest is that they posted a $642Million loss !!! . . . if they can to that, then the board of Milligan should start looking for government handouts !!! I am sure the Alberta NDP government will spend that carbon tax of ours to save the plant !!!

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#2491599 - 05/03/18 03:45 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
AndyF Online   content
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
Tesla seems to be getting into a bit of trouble with investors. They are burning cash and don't appear to have enough money on hand to keep operations going much longer. The stock price is starting to take some hits. I'm predicting it will end in a merger at some point. Musk doesn't have enough money to keep it afloat by himself.

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#2491661 - 05/03/18 05:54 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: AndyF]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4682
Loc: Benton, IL.
_________________________
KOS

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#2491666 - 05/03/18 05:58 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: AndyF]
Diego (not Ted) Online   crying


Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 22019
Loc: Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
I continue to wonder why people cheer for the death of an American brand. shruggy

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#2491668 - 05/03/18 06:02 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
hooziewhatsit Offline
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Because Tesla is pushing a pretty significant change, and change is hard and scary to a lot of people (maybe a cry box would help? laugh2).

If they continue to figure out the model 3 production line and keep cranking towards 5k+ a week, it looks like they'll be just fine by the end of the year.
_________________________
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#2491672 - 05/03/18 06:08 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
VS29H0B Offline
pro stock

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1355
Loc: USA
The situation with Tesla is the securing of the necessary capitol to continue. Most well connected analysts believe that Musk has only one more chance with securing capitol to continue his car building operations.

After the next capitol go-around, most feel it is over for Tesla.

Unless there is a huge battery efficiency breakthrough, the cost for car batteries is in the range of $100 dollars per kwh. So unless the batteries cost drop dramatically, Tesla is stuck with those expenses in building their cars, the same as other competitors (GM, Audi, VW, Daimler, Ford, Porsche and the Asians).

Today, due to poor car building processes, Tesla takes approximately 5X the amount of time to produce one Tesla Model 3 compared to a Chevy Bolt. In other words, Musk's operating expenses/costs to build his cars are way higher than revenue/income from sales, his execution is flawed - costs are higher than revenue for Tesla.

With competitors listed above starting to get seriously invested in electric vehicles, Tesla will have stand up to the new competitors in the marketplace. And those competitors have mature processes and efficient methods of car building due to their experience in car assembly and quality control.

My money would not be on Tesla to survive the competitor onslaught. Elon does not want to talk about building cars, he wants to talk about going to Neptune.


Edited by VS29H0B (05/03/18 06:19 PM)
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Like the women I have dated --- Always looking for a better deal ....

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#2491714 - 05/03/18 08:15 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
ruderunner Offline


Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 1960
Loc: ohio
Related to the above, Tesla is pioneering batteries and sales. But no they don't know a thing about mass production.

The established manufacturer do know mass production but not the sales and battery tech.

A merger could create an unstoppable company. But who would dance with Tesla? Despite the government intervention, I think Ford would be the best match. Financially strong and good engineering (domestic anyways) and actually appears to be taking a serious look at the future.

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#2491718 - 05/03/18 08:20 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4682
Loc: Benton, IL.
"They're still struggling on the manufacturing side, and that translates directly into cash burn problems," D.R. Barton, chief technical analyst at Money Morning, told CNBC's "The Rundown."

"It is a well-made and engineered car. I think the problem is, it's not engineered for manufacturing simplicity and that's going to continue to plague them through the lifecycle of that car," he said.

The Tesla 3 may never meet the production goals set for it. Production has improved and might improve further, but it is still a long way from it's initial projections.
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KOS

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#2491743 - 05/03/18 09:03 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Diego (not Ted)]
Pacnorthcuda Online   boogie
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19038
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted By Diego (not Ted)
I continue to wonder why people cheer for the death of an American brand. shruggy



Standard Oil? Chevron?

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#2491757 - 05/03/18 09:32 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15315
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By Diego (not Ted)
I continue to wonder why people cheer for the death of an American brand. shruggy



Standard Oil? Chevron?


Wonder why???
Really? This is a classic car forum. The OVERwhelming majority of members here are Muscle car enthusiasts that love their gasoline powered, rumbling V8 cars. It surprises you to see resistance to a radical departure from that, a company that also bleeds cash faster than the Federal Government?

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#2491787 - 05/03/18 10:46 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Frankenduster]
Diego (not Ted) Online   crying


Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 22019
Loc: Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
Originally Posted By Frankenduster

Really? This is a classic car forum. The OVERwhelming majority of members here are Muscle car enthusiasts that love their gasoline powered, rumbling V8 cars. It surprises you to see resistance to a radical departure from that, a company that also bleeds cash faster than the Federal Government?


I expect people to be reasonable and objective, not anti-American. It shouldn't be too much to ask.

Someone buying a Tesla doesn't affect my enthusiasm for American muscle. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

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#2491791 - 05/03/18 11:08 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Pacnorthcuda Online   boogie
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19038
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Perhaps the billions in government (taxpayer's) subsidies has something to do with the disdain for Tesla and company???

Ya think?

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#2491794 - 05/03/18 11:24 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15315
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Yes.
If the product is a good idea and of good value, there should be no need to be supported by taxpayers.

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#2491812 - 05/04/18 01:44 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Diego (not Ted)]
slantzilla Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 18148
Loc: Park Forest, IL
Originally Posted By Diego (not Ted)
Originally Posted By Frankenduster

Really? This is a classic car forum. The OVERwhelming majority of members here are Muscle car enthusiasts that love their gasoline powered, rumbling V8 cars. It surprises you to see resistance to a radical departure from that, a company that also bleeds cash faster than the Federal Government?


I expect people to be reasonable and objective, not anti-American. It shouldn't be too much to ask.

Someone buying a Tesla doesn't affect my enthusiasm for American muscle. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.


My main problem with Tesla is it seems to be a huve Ponzi scheme. He's burned through loads and loads of other people's money and is delivering huge empty promises.

I'd love to see a viable electric car that is something more than a rich man's novelty item. A Tesla isn't it.
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#2492020 - 05/04/18 01:17 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Diego (not Ted) Online   crying


Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 22019
Loc: Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Perhaps the billions in government (taxpayer's) subsidies has something to do with the disdain for Tesla and company???


Then, if true (because we know every opinion on Moparts is always correct), the issue with how the government disburses subsidies, rather than the product.

Glaring at Tesla is the kind of thing I'd expect from a woman. Or a Millennial.

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#2492117 - 05/04/18 04:09 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
klunick Offline


Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 2911
Loc: Southern Maryland
Not against an American company but for Tesla to have a larger market cap than GM is nuts. There are some sheep that are about to get sheered.
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#2492256 - 05/04/18 11:12 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
AndyF Online   content
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24363
Loc: Oregon
I don't hold any grudge against electric cars, I'm one of the few people on this board who owns an electric car. I do think Musk is a bit of a con artist and I do think Tesla is headed for bankruptcy court. But I've had this argument with Tesla fans for several years. So far they have been making money on the stock while I haven't been........

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#2492302 - 05/05/18 02:22 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
hooziewhatsit Offline
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
If anyone is wanting to get in on the shorting game, better act soon laugh2

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-almost-out-of-stock-for-short-sellers-1525467892

Guess we'll check back in a few months to see how it's going popcorn
_________________________
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#2492308 - 05/05/18 02:56 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
crackedback Offline


Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 1125
Loc: CA
There's ALWAYS a way/method to short a stock even if shares aren't available.

I can make $ without ever shorting a single share of actual stock and profit all the way down. I never surrender a $ to do it. smile

Tesla is one of my favorite trades around earnings time. Google too.

Time is about up on Tesla. The fan boys will get killed as it's really an auto manufacturer working on battery tech with an insane valuation. Cars are cool, business is a cash burning behemoth!

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#2492368 - 05/05/18 09:26 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: crackedback]
Soopernaut Offline
top fuel

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 2137
Loc: Des Moines IA
Originally Posted By crackedback
There's ALWAYS a way/method to short a stock even if shares aren't available.

I can make $ without ever shorting a single share of actual stock and profit all the way down. I never surrender a $ to do it. smile

Tesla is one of my favorite trades around earnings time. Google too.


Can you elaborate? Are you selling options or something?
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1970 Dodge d100/eventually going on a 77 D100 frame

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#2492437 - 05/05/18 12:15 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: Soopernaut]
crackedback Offline


Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 1125
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By Soopernaut
Originally Posted By crackedback
There's ALWAYS a way/method to short a stock even if shares aren't available.

I can make $ without ever shorting a single share of actual stock and profit all the way down. I never surrender a $ to do it. smile

Tesla is one of my favorite trades around earnings time. Google too.


Can you elaborate? Are you selling options or something?


Winner!!!

Do it synthetically.


More than one way to skin a cat.

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#2492514 - 05/05/18 04:19 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
theraif Offline
master

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 5651
Loc: my own world
just look at Fisker Automotive took $529 million from the US
How Fisker burned through $1.4 billion on a 'green' car
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos...E95G02L20130617


Edited by theraif (05/05/18 04:20 PM)
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#2492525 - 05/05/18 05:26 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: theraif]
hooziewhatsit Offline
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2814
Loc: State of Jefferson
Originally Posted By theraif
just look at Fisker Automotive took $529 million from the US
How Fisker burned through $1.4 billion on a 'green' car
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos...E95G02L20130617


Misleading.

They were approved for up to 529million, but the DOE cut them off after continuously missing deadlines, at which point they had only drawn 192 million.

Originally Posted By your article
The total also included the full $529 million in loans approved by the Energy Department <they said trying to fraudulently raise more money from investor> — even though Fisker was able to tap only $192 million before being cut off six months earlier


The rest of the money came from private investors. You win some, you lose some. The DOE pulled out early when it looked like they were going to lose.

The company sure sounds like it was managed terribly though eek

Meanwhile, Tesla paid back their DOE loan 10 years ahead of time.
_________________________
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#2492747 - 05/06/18 10:14 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: DaveRS23]
2boltmain Offline
master

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 3531
Loc: MI Allegan county
Leaving out the fact that people want ALL the bells and whistles- from a reliability and functionality stand point- Does Tesla lower the mileage range and long term reliability of their cars by having them equipped with ground breaking tech and complex features?

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#2492788 - 05/06/18 11:49 AM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: 2boltmain]
maxwedge1 Offline
mopar

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 486
Loc: PA
The recent quarterly conference call pretty much sums it up, Mr. Musk has no time for the people who question his finances or business plan so we will see if his arrogance will keep his plant operating should the investor pool dry up.
He may yet survive as there are those that will back anything green or tech right over a cliff if need be because they know the hundreds of billions to be made by the death of fossil fuels and the "planet saving" i.e money making replacements they have in mind.

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#2492796 - 05/06/18 12:14 PM Re: Interesting analysis of Tesla......... [Re: maxwedge1]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15804
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By maxwedge1

He may yet survive as there are those that will back anything green or tech right over a cliff if need be because they know the hundreds of billions to be made by the death of fossil fuels and the "planet saving" i.e money making replacements they have in mind.




And that will be his saving grace, it'll be another case of "too big to fail" bailouts publicly or privately funded

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TX9 White Interior N96 4-spd 70 Superbee
by hergfest
Yesterday at 11:47 PM
grain scale accuracy
by RapidRobert
Yesterday at 11:39 PM
Edelbrock head repair
by 493_DART
Yesterday at 11:22 PM
70RR Airgrabber switch and solenoid...?
by JMCFAN
Yesterday at 09:09 PM